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[NeonZ]

So Goku this entire time could have easily handled Black and Zamas but he just didn't? He either had this OD form that puts him on the level Potara Fusion or he magically learned it with no training while learning the mafuba. Either one makes it an epic asspull.

It seems to be basically a replacement for SSB Kaioken, since it can damage his body if he can't control the power and this is the first time he's using it. Also, don't forget Future Zamasu is fairly weak in the manga. He hasn't shown power on the level of the god forms at all, so his fusion with Black wouldn't be comparable to Vegetto.

Uhhh he and Vegeta LOST & he had to retreat. Where was full power SSB when that was happening?

Goku lost because he powered down and got caught by Zamasu's regeneration and counterattack with paralysis, not due to power levels.

 

[ZeroTheShadow]

Yeah, great point. It's not like Goku never did this before with other opponents (SS3) or could have stomped Black in his initial/second meeting in the anime if he went SSB+KK.

In the anime Black is waaaaaay stronger than Goku even with KK it wouldn't have worked.

 

[Morlas]

I've been wondering how certain characters will be eliminated...like I think a lot of people are guessing Jiren will eliminate Hit to hype them up but if we go under the assumption that goku is the last u7 fighter eliminated who eliminates vegeta magical girl? One of the female saiyans? U10s muscle guy leader?

 

[Icyflamez96]

Uhhh he and Vegeta LOST & he had to retreat. Where was full power SSB when that was happening?

You could say the same thing about Kaoiken in the anime could you not? He probably didn't think he'd have to use it, but after he got wrecked it was too late to try. I can't quite remember every back in forth in the manga.

Though my main question is when he learned it, or if it's something that he just thought of recently. Not sure if I can think of a moment of foreshadowing for it, unless we just count Whis teaching them that not leaking your energy is good.

 

[Reset]

In the anime Black is waaaaaay stronger than Goku even with KK it wouldn't have worked.

Goku could have killed Black when they first met. Black was on the same level as SS2 Goku at that time. When Black fights Vegeta the second time, Black was getting his beat until he got his random ass power (scythe). If Goku went KK+SSB before Black learned how to transform/be able to take out his scythe, Black would have lost easily.

 

[dickroach]

"it takes 25 hours. we wouldn't be able to do it before the tournament starts"
30 seconds after they show Vegeta walking into the hyperbolic time chamber -______- dumb

but this episode was great. I wish we'd gotten more of this and less of "I won't participate in the tournament......... ok I'll participate in the tournament." but I really wish the tournament would have started like 15 episodes ago.

 

[Undead Fantasy]

I wonder if they are going to try and redeem Frost. Unlike Freeza, he hasn't killed anyone on screen.

 

[Blackage]

For those asking "Why didn't he do that from the start, wtf manga, asspull!"

He literally never had a chance to do it from the start.

In the first fight, Vegeta fought using Blue + Red flickers, then Black went Rose and overpowered him and he lost. Goku lost to Zamasu because he's fucking immortal and he couldn't do any damage to him anime is similar.

They flee, they come back, Vegeta trained in the room of spirit & time, he's now stronger then Black, Goku tries to seal Zamasu in the urn, but again they forgot the tag.

Zamasu & Black merge, he literally gibs them and they both go down 2 pages after he transforms from blue to normal, they escape and decide to hold off fusing to see if they can fight him solo, which fails horribly because they're fatigued and only have 1 sensu bean left eventually they decide to fuse, Vegetto uses the last sensu overpowers merged Zamasu & Black, fusion wears off, they're losing again.

Trunks figures out he can heal people and it's how he saved Gowatsu & Mai before and decides to heal Goku after Vegeta talks him into it, Vegeta pointing out after they merged he clearly thinks Goku is stronger and we finally learn how far Goku has taken SSJBlue.

 

[Morlas]

"it takes 25 hours. we wouldn't be able to do it before the tournament starts"
30 seconds after they show Vegeta walking into the hyperbolic time chamber -______- dumb

but this episode was great. I wish we'd gotten more of this and less of "I won't participate in the tournament......... ok I'll participate in the tournament." but I really wish the tournament would have started like 15 episodes ago.

Can't only 2 people be in there.

 

[Reset]

Can't only 2 people be in there.

No. Only enough food for two people I believe.
Super Buu + Piccolo + Goten + Trunks were all in the chamber in the Buu saga. It's just another thing that they forgot about.

 

[ElFly]

the whole thing about "mastering super saiyan blue" is that it makes the SSB form...more lame

powerful transformations need to have aura, fire, vapor, rocks lifting, lightning forming around the saiyan

if you just say 'he is more powerful because he isn't leaking any ki' that just looks boring

it kind of makes sense compared to what Whis said before in the anime, but it wouldn't work in the anime either. I don't consider it an asspull, it's just a super lame thing to do

 

[Skeeter49]

Can't only 2 people be in there.

Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, and Buu were all in there at the same time.

Either way, Vegeta also said 30 seconds prior that he wanted to beat Goku, I don't think Vegeta would be too happy seeing Goku in the ROSAT.

 

[Icyflamez96]

the whole thing about "mastering super saiyan blue" is that it makes the SSB form...more lame

powerful transformations need to have aura, fire, vapor, rocks lifting, lightning forming around the saiyan

if you just say 'he is more powerful because he isn't leaking any ki' that just looks boring

it kind of makes sense compared to what Whis said before in the anime, but it wouldn't work in the anime either. I don't consider it an asspull, it's just a super lame thing to do

I agree that visually it's more boring, but I like the concept of what it's doing, and I think the moment of his ki disappating was cool.

Though the visuals of it don't bother me as much in manga form as it would in animated form.

Spoiler

Get ready for Mystic Goku in the tournament boiii

 

[Icyflamez96]

I'm sorry, I have yet to read the latest chapter. Will come back after I do.

It doesn't seem like he's interested in actually discussing it anyway. He often just leaves a trolly drive-by response to people who say something good about the manga and doesn't follow up on it.

 

[Morlas]

Personally I'm ok with the manga I just enjoy the anime a lot more

 

[HardRojo]

Ok so I just read the manga. It wasn't as bad as I had thought from the posts in the previous page.
I like the idea of a Perfected SSB, that seems to be Toyotaro's answer to SSB Kaioken from the anime, and it makes sense if you think about it. Whis mentioned that not leaking power and letting your own body move by itself was critical for improving one's strength, and neither Vegeta nor Goku had reached that level yet, not even Beerus. It would be a nice concept to apply in the anime, I believe, so I don't see it as much of an asspull to be honest, just Goku being Goku, hiding a technique he's still not quite sure about (like Kaioken on top of Blue in the anime) and using it when he believes the time is right, you can even see his body starting to give out in the last panels.
Trunks having healing abilities because he underwent the ritual and became a Supreme Kai disciple... I like it, it makes sense too, but what about Gohan then? Should Gohan be able to heal too?

Overall, I liked this chapter, but I can't fucking believe we're not done with the F. Trunks arc in the manga yet lol, it's been so long.

 

[Skeeter49]

There is a little bit of bullshit with Super Saiyan Rose, since they never explained how he got it.

It could be argued he chose the color, there's reasons why he would choose rose, but it was never stated he chose it.

 

[Undead Fantasy]

Ok so I just read the manga. It wasn't as bad as I had thought from the posts in the previous page.
I like the idea of a Perfected SSB, that seems to be Toyotaro's answer to SSB Kaioken from the anime, and it makes sense if you think about it. Whis mentioned that not leaking power and letting your own body move by itself was critical for improving one's strength, and neither Vegeta nor Goku had reached that level yet, not even Beerus. It would be a nice concept to apply in the anime, I believe, so I don't see it as much of an asspull to be honest, just Goku being Goku, hiding a technique he's still not quite sure about (like Kaioken on top of Blue in the anime) and using it when he believes the time is right, you can even see his body starting to give out in the last panels.
Trunks having healing abilities because he underwent the ritual and became a Supreme Kai disciple... I like it, it makes sense too, but what about Gohan then? Should Gohan be able to heal too?

Overall, I liked this chapter, but I can't fucking believe we're not done with the F. Trunks arc in the manga yet lol, it's been so long.

How? How can a mortal be a disciple to a Kai?

It makes no sense.

 

[HardRojo]

There is a little bit of bullshit with Super Saiyan Rose, since they never explained how he got it.

It could be argued he chose the color, there's reasons why he would choose rose, but it was never stated he chose it.

I think of it as a combination of SSB plus Zamasu's aura.

 

[Morlas]

I think its just that zamasu manipulates his aura differently than goku so he gets different results even with the same body.

 

[HardRojo]

How? How can a mortal be a disciple to a Kai?

It makes no sense.

Being a disciple doesn't make you a Kai nor grant you Godhood, that's my take, so there's no reason a mortal cannot be a disciple, plus we've seen U7 Kais be very friendly toward Earthlings, especially the Saiyans, so it seems plausible for me that both Present and Future Shin would have no problem taking Gohan and Trunks as their disciples. The only problem I see here is the fact that Elder Kai's ritual doesn't seem to be exclusively dedicated to unlocking one's potential and Gohan potentially having the same power for so long and Shin not telling him shit.

 

[HeroR]

Meh that actually makes things make more sense as opposed to the anime where Mai just survives that blast.

Still laid unconscious in the rubbled for over a day. How did she not die during that period or regain consciousness?

 

[HeroR]

Feeling the manga's take on power levels and boost. If trunks went rage mode in the manga I would allow it since he was an apprentice. That's what I call an explanation. The anime could learn a thing or two.

Being an apprentice wouldn't explain a rage mode, especially since Saiyans already have two anger filled transformations already. Vegeta had a rage mode just by Bulma getting slapped.

To be blunt, this plot point makes no sense and it probably came out of Toyo's ass when he realized how useless his version of Trunks was.

 

[Skeeter49]

Did Mai get hit by Black in the manga as well?

From my understanding of the manga, I really need to check it out, this sounded like a last resort to make Future Trunks relevant in his arc, since it sounded like he wasn't that relevant prior to this.

 

[HardRojo]

Did Mai get hit by Black in the manga as well?

From my understanding of the manga, I really need to check it out, this sounded like a last resort to make Future Trunks relevant in his arc, since it sounded like he wasn't that relevant prior to this.

Can't recall if she was hit by Black in the manga, but yeah, it's weird seeing Trunks barely doing shit in his own arc this time around lol, I wonder what Toyotaro has planned for next month.

 

[Icyflamez96]

Still laid unconscious in the rubbled for over a day. How did she not die during that period or regain consciousness?

Dat coma bro

Being an apprentice wouldn't explain a rage mode, especially since Saiyans already have two anger filled transformations already. Vegeta had a rage mode just by Bulma getting slapped.

To be blunt, this plot point makes no sense and it probably came out of Toyo's ass when he realized how useless his version of Trunks was.

It would be something more to go off of if you subscribe to the SSRage uses god ki theory.

How does it make no sense anyway?

 

[HeroR]

Hmm just read the latest chapter. I'll take the Kai healing abilities over the Super Saiyan transformation which puts Future Trunks on the same level as Super Saiyan Blue Goku. It makes Future Trunks useful without giving him a transformation which just looks like a cheap knock off the Legendary Super Saiyan transformation.

Since the manga didn't put Future Trunks on the same level as Goku power wise, I'm thinking the manga will end up fixing this arcs 'power levels' too.

So Goku having a form that put him on par with a fusion makes perfect sense for power levels? Even if Black and Future Zamasu were weaker than their anime counterparts, Goku and Vegata went from fodder level against Super Buu after he absorbed everyone, to stomping him as a basic Super Saiyan. There is no way in hell Goku's power jump makes any sense, especially if you're going with "manga will end up fixing this arcs 'power levels".

Yeah, great point. It's not like Goku never did this before with other opponents (SS3) or could have stomped Black in his initial/second meeting in the anime if he went SSB+KK. Nor Black's random scythe weapon was an asspull.

Sorry, that excuse doesn't work because you're purposely leaving out context.

Goku didn't used Super Saiyan 3 against Buu because his time was short in the living world and he wanted the next generation to handle Buu.

If you paid attention to the Champa Saga, Goku said that the Kaioken only had a 10% success rate. Failure meant harming his body or even death. Which is why he only used it once he was truly back into a corner with Merged Zamasu and had no real choice.

Black's got a power boost from his anger and he made a different version of his sword in an energy scythe. It isn't an asspull since it is an extension of something he has been using the entire arc, nor ripping through dimensions since that was done back in the Buu Saga by just screaming.

This, Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan form in the manga is a massive asspull because Goku could used it at any time. Activating it cost nothing and he could have easily blitz Black and one-shotted him before his body began to break down. Or better yet, he could have used the freaking thing when he tried to solo Merged Zamasu earlier and was getting hammered. There was no reason at all for Goku to hold this form back unlike Super Saiyan 3 or the Kaioken.

 

[Kagari]

Even after the healing stuff, Toyo's Trunks is still really useless.

 

[Slaythe]

Toyo is still really useless.

Fixed. ;o

 

[Undead Fantasy]

Even after the healing stuff, Toyo's Trunks is still really useless.

He can always pull another thing out of his ass next chapter.

 

[HardRojo]

Even after the healing stuff, Toyo's Trunks is still really useless.

Worst thing is he wants to do stuff, but the other characters won't let him lol.

 

[Icyflamez96]

He'll still transform and get the final kill at the end of the saga. Believe

 

[Tsunamo]

Zamasu's channeling his inner Janemba this chapter.

 

[Kagari]

Worst thing is he wants to do stuff, but the other characters won't let him lol.

This sounds vaguely familiar...

 

[Skeeter49]

Someone else besides Trunks getting the "kill" would piss a lot of people off.

I could see him making it so that Vegeta gets the final "kill" for his son.

Either way, this can only end one way. With 2 sadistic, child like murderers in one timeline.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

This sounds vaguely familiar...

.....

Spoiler

Jorge wants to be hardcore, but his mom won't let him

 

[HeroR]

I don't think manga Future Trunks deserves the kill. He hasn't done anything to earn it. Goku and Vegeta are the ones putting in all the work.

 

[Undead Fantasy]

I don't think manga Future Trunks deserves the kill. He hasn't done anything to earn it. Goku and Vegeta are the ones putting in all the work.

Yeah this.

I'm glad there's an anime. I fucking hate manga Trunks but loved the anime one.

 

[HardRojo]

This sounds vaguely familiar...

 

[caliph95]

They had their chance and just made Buu stronger

 

[HardRojo]

They had their chance and just made Buu stronger

They'll be fighting poachers soon so maybe they'll reach new heights now.

 

[HeroR]

Yeah this.

I'm glad there's an anime. I fucking hate manga Trunks but loved the anime one.

Even with my issues with manga Future Trunks, my biggest beef lies with manga Goku at the moment.

Seriously, he had this Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan form and never used it. He could have killed Black in their first encountered after Vegeta was defeated by Black Rose. He can fight on par with freaking Merged Zamasu. He could have one-shotted him before his body broke and Future Zamasu in the manga is a joke. As Goku pointed out, Future Trunks could have easily beat him, making the entire thing with the Evil Containment Wave kind of pointless. He could have saved the lives of the remaining humans on Earth, but he didn't because he couldn't be bother to used this perfect Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan form.

It also tick me off that people keep comparing it to the Kaioken. Goku in the anime had a very good reason for not using it giving the failure rate and how it made him sick for days after he used it. Which is why it was a last resort desperate attack.

Anime Goku may of had some stupid and forgetful moments in this saga, but manga Goku comes off as an asshole with this new information.

 

[Skeeter49]

They had their chance and just made Buu stronger

Piccolo's fault.
He let them get absorbed.

And the Goten part of Gotenks was slowing down Gotenks thinking capacity.

 

[Freshmaker]

It also tick me off that people keep comparing it to the Kaioken. Goku in the anime had a very good reason for not using it giving the failure rate and how it made him sick for days after he used it. Which is why it was a last resort desperate attack.

Anime Goku may of had some stupid and forgetful moments in this saga, but manga Goku comes off as an asshole with this new information.

This was just a theory to Goku before he was desperate enough to actually attempt it. Vegeta even says that doing what Goku's doing can easily physically ruin him and that he can't possibly keep it up for long.

This is effectively doing what the Kaioken did.

 

[Icyflamez96]

Even with my issues with manga Future Trunks, my biggest beef lies with manga Goku at the moment.

Seriously, he had this Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan form and never used it. He could have killed Black in their first encountered after Vegeta was defeated by Black Rose. He can fight on par with freaking Merged Zamasu. He could have one-shotted him before his body broke and Future Zamasu in the manga is a joke. As Goku pointed out, Future Trunks could have easily beat him, making the entire thing with the Evil Containment Wave kind of pointless. He could have saved the lives of the remaining humans on Earth, but he didn't because he couldn't be bother to used this perfect Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan form.

It also tick me off that people keep comparing it to the Kaioken. Goku in the anime had a very good reason for not using it giving the failure rate and how it made him sick for days after he used it. Which is why it was a last resort desperate attack.

Anime Goku may of had some stupid and forgetful moments in this saga, but manga Goku comes off as an asshole with this new information.

Anime Goku is totally an asshole. Goku could have killed Black in their first encounter there as well.

It is similar to Kaioken in the sense that it's a last resort move that breaks his body afterwards.

 

[caliph95]

It makes it worse when he used the potora before he did that because it was so desperate and Goku prefers using his streght over fusion and didn't bother using again against buu. If they showed him having trouble accessing instead of boom mastered no one would be bothered by it instead he just mastered it all of a sudden. Plus this is just at the expense of Zamasu again

 

[Undead Fantasy]

Even with my issues with manga Future Trunks, my biggest beef lies with manga Goku at the moment.

Seriously, he had this Mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan form and never used it. He could have killed Black in their first encountered after Vegeta was defeated by Black Rose. He can fight on par with freaking Merged Zamasu. He could have one-shotted him before his body broke and Future Zamasu in the manga is a joke. As Goku pointed out, Future Trunks could have easily beat him, making the entire thing with the Evil Containment Wave kind of pointless. He could have saved the lives of the remaining humans on Earth, but he didn't because he couldn't be bother to used this perfect Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan form.

It also tick me off that people keep comparing it to the Kaioken. Goku in the anime had a very good reason for not using it giving the failure rate and how it made him sick for days after he used it. Which is why it was a last resort desperate attack.

Anime Goku may of had some stupid and forgetful moments in this saga, but manga Goku comes off as an asshole with this new information.

While the Kaioken was very difficult to use that arc, the later is incorrect. Kaioken x10 was the cause of the whole delay ki disorder.

 

[HeroR]

This was just a theory to Goku before he was desperate enough to actually attempt it. Vegeta even says that doing what Goku's doing can easily physically ruin him and that he can't possibly keep it up for long.

This is effectively doing what the Kaioken did.

That's if he used it too long, not just activating it. The Kaioken only had a 10% success rage of doing that and it could kill Goku. Goku could have easily blitz Black.

Anime Goku is totally an asshole. Goku could have killed Black in their first encounter there as well.

It is similar to Kaioken in the sense that it's a last resort move that breaks his body afterwards.

Not even remotely the same thing because you're ignoring context.

Goku was testing Black and had no idea that Black would suddenly be sucked back the time portal. He thought he had time to finished Black. In the manga, Vegeta was down and Black just got his own Super Saiyan form. This isn't like the anime where the fight stopped abruptly.

No, it's not for the reasons I listed.

While the Kaioken was very difficult to use that arc, the later is incorrect. Kaioken x10 was the cause of the whole delay ki disorder.

That an assumption since the anime never said that. King Kai just said that Goku used his ki in crazy ways and it made him sick. In fact, he said using the Kaioken, not just Kaioken x10, was dangerous.

 

[LotusHD]

Anime Goku is totally an asshole.

I mean... regardless of whether it's the anime or manga, Goku would be an asshole even if this chapter didn't exist lol

 

[Undead Fantasy]

That an assumption since the anime never said that. King Kai just said that Goku used his ki in crazy ways and it made him sick. In fact, he said using the Kaioken, not just Kaioken x10, was dangerous.

Kaio especially mentions Kaioken x10. Even the little flashback was of that.