James Earl Jones isn't the only deep voiced person in Hollywood, especially with a vocoder. You obviously don't care but many people of color notice when they're only the flavor of something, which JEJ was. When Anakin was revealed to be a white dude, it played right into evil = black. You not grasping this is in you, not us, who want to be more than a "perfect"voice for a white man in an almost all white production.
'Stop Giving Evil Characters Brown Skin'
- Thread starter Shaanyboi
- Start date
PatThePassive
Member
Shallow compared to other characters in other games yes, for gears Cole train was somewhat flushed out. at least his gimmick wasn't he dies every game.
Also are stereotypes supposed to be off limits? Hyped up black athlete isn't that bad of a stereotype is it?
Not everyone can be on Clems level
I've never seen someone go full Cole train but everyone can get close when you pull something off that was crazy, that's why Cole train is so great we are all a little Cole Train.
Again, I'm only going by the example provided.
I didn't play the game and I can only go from what people say.
Change in clothing to indicate evil is really another trop though.
It plays of the same stereotype (dark color = evil) as the racist cousin we're discussing but it's far less problematic.
In Full Metal, the guy doesn't get into blackface when he reveals his true form either so it's differnt too.
my point is I don't know about Revengeance.
The ultimate evil in that movie was super pale, though.
I'm not into Star Wars at all but if Luke is white and Anakin is his father, wouldn't he have to be white? Mark Hamill certainly doesn't look biracial.
BuckyBabbs
Neo Member
Ahhh. Gotcha. This is true. My guess is the higher ups wanted the James Earl Jones voice to be iconic to the helmet and they probably felt that no matter how calm the real James Earl Jones spoke, he'd still kinda sound Vader'ish ie:The Dark Side/Evil
dmcRedgrave
Member
There's a little Cole Train in all of us. In the smile of every child. In the laugh of every baby.
It's the fucking future apocalypse, and the only black dude of note is a ball player. How is that not an issue that could've easily been solved, especially in a new IP?
Paracelsus
Member
It's one thing to talk about skin as in race, another stuff like Evil Ryu. They just can't think of a better way to convey corruption (shadow taking over light) other than making everything darker.
In the latter one, the trick to save him is turning the Pegasus stars back on (by piercing all the pressure points on his body a la HNK) so that light can take over darkness again.
In the latter one, the trick to save him is turning the Pegasus stars back on (by piercing all the pressure points on his body a la HNK) so that light can take over darkness again.
So... most villains are black?
That Orochimaru example is his of his arms actually dying... like the flesh was starting to rot IIRC.
Weltall Zero
Member
That's precisely what the role of empathy is. I'm a straight while able-bodied male in a first world country, not rich but not starved either; for me to understand privilege and discrimination, I have to put myself in others' shoes, and see through others' eyes: the definition of empathy. If you're neither in a disadvantaged group nor personally inclined to understand and emphatize with others' problems, then reducing discrimination is probably not going to rank very high in your priority list; in the worst case, you're going to see it as bothersome.
The ultimate evil in that movie was super pale, though.
Yup, i was thinking about this actually, i think this is a good way to make villians seem creepy and evil, like Bloodborne also has some shades of this where some enemies are very creepy looking because they're incredibly pale.
Tho i think this creates more of a "monster" vision than just "evil guy", papatine looks straight up inhuman.
starchild excalibur
Member
But everyone can, if they bother to write them well enough. There were a lot of things I hated about Gears, but Cole was up there for me. But I guess in its defense, I found all of the characters insufferable in Gears 1-3.
God some of these responses are dense. There's clearly an obvious pattern of "darker skin = bad," and saying that there's a lot of white villains isn't going to change that fact.
Stating that it's ok because black traditionally represents "bad" completely misses the point.
Giving examples of villains in black outfits or fantasy pitch black skin completely misses the point.
Stating that it's ok because black traditionally represents "bad" completely misses the point.
Giving examples of villains in black outfits or fantasy pitch black skin completely misses the point.
The Orochimaru one I don't buy because he's definitely a part of the pale white = evil trope.
Weltall Zero
Member
Yeah, Star Wars is one of the few places I would not look for racism. In fact, in the original trilogy the Empire is a pretty clear analogue of the Nazis, with every single imperial a human white male.
dmcRedgrave
Member
But Jar-Jar though.
Oh and that Jew monster who owns Anakin's mom. I forget his name.
Orochimaru is super pale and evil/corrupt. His arms getting darker is more akin to gangrene and has nothing to do with corruption.
BuckyBabbs
Neo Member
Dooo you think that just maybe, jusssssssssst maybe, George Lucas was all like "Hey, James Earl Jones voice would be perfect for Vader"?
I don't know man, I kinda feel that it was an artistic choice they made and now Vader sounds cool and the many people that helped make Star Wars could get back to worrying about making the movie.
Perhaps race never had anything to do with it?
Crazy thinking on my part I know!
The Bookerman
Member
Does that mean that Evil Ryu and Violent Ken should be considered of a different ethnicity or race?
It's like asking Darth Vader to repaint his costume white?
It's like asking Darth Vader to repaint his costume white?
ChronotriggerJM
Member
They did something like this in Xenosaga if I'm remembering correctly. T-elos was much darker than Kos-mos. Seems more rampant in Japan :/
PatThePassive
Member
Its gears not war and peace every character is shallow as hell.
Still you guys aren't wrong but I disagree because Cole fits into the world so well.
If the new gears had a new black character that was also a ball player I would agree that it needs to stop.
Edit: Hell if this scene isnt a little moving, you probably never had a good time playing on a team with friends
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRQ3wRXiNuw
I've had sad daydreams almost identical to Cole walking up to the field because I was a loser. That scene just reaches me at a personal level.
I swear to god when I get a pack in Sunday pick up bbal I almost let out a Whoooo!
dmcRedgrave
Member
Yeahhhh but that's because she was supposed to be Middle Eastern because she was Mary Magdalene in a previous life or something and... fuckin' Xenosaga was so dumb.
The majority of the shit in this thread I'll cosign as being an issue. I don't buy that characters like Evil Ryu being a little darker than Ryu as an issue because, just like there's a ton of instances of characters becoming darker as they turn evil, there's tons of examples of characters becoming lighter when they turn evil. They're both tropes.
Evil Albino
Dark is Evil
Evil Albino
Dark is Evil
ChronotriggerJM
Member
Damn middle Eastern Androids lol.
I'm a bit late to this, but... Street Fighter Alpha 2 (which I believe is Evil Ryu's debut)
Ryu
Evil Ryu
I'm a bit late to this, but... Street Fighter Alpha 2 (which I believe is Evil Ryu's debut)
Ryu
Evil Ryu
my mistake, in hindsight i was mistaken because some of the art in Capcom Vs SNK didn't seem to make his skin that much different.
I'm a bit late to this, but... Street Fighter Alpha 2 (which I believe is Evil Ryu's debut)
Ryu
Evil Ryu
Like I said earlier this is more laziness than anything. They wanted another character so they made an "Evil" Ryu and to distinguish him from Ryu without spending any money they gave him slightly darker skin and a black gi.
They lampshaded how goofy that is with "Sunburned Sakura" who is essentially but Evil Sakura (she's possessed by the Satsui no Hadou) but since she debuted in a Versus game they got cheeky with the name.
Jesus, nobody is asking that.
The video is about how media continually demonizes darker complexions. Not even just by different races, but it uses that shorthand to instill the notion that "lighter skin=good, darker skin=bad".
Shadoken
Member
"It's not a big deal!" ~ Some poc guy
Oh wait those posts don't matter.
People in this thread are just randomly calling people of different opinion racist without even looking at the context. There's a difference between representing people of a certain ethnicity as evil characters. But protagonists getting a dark aura or skin when they become corrupt or evil doesn't really have racial intentions. It's more of light vs dark trope , which prolly dates all the way back to day vs night. With the night obviously being a representation of evil/corrupt/bad w/e .Not really white ppl vs black ppl.
This
SixMachine
Member
There are darker skin japanese people, like people from Okinawa,(Believe it or not, Ken is suppose to be like 3/4 japanese, it is why he has dark eyebrows, he actually dyed his hair blonde. Just a side note) not everyone is the same shade in japan. Just because skin color is a characteristic of your ethnic group, it is not the defining thing, and there are different people within the same group.
Nah nah that's just Evil Nobunaga
also
dmcRedgrave
Member
Violent Nobunaga.
capylikesgames
Banned
Why is this a debate? Nobody's saying all media follows this pattern, but using the antagonist's skin tone as a sign of their alignment in comparison to the protagonist's light skin is a regularly used, lazy and harmful approach to depicting good vs. evil. It's gotten a little better over time, I feel, but it's still present, and thus still worth discussing.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Regarding anime, the pure white angels above are much more terrifying, dirty and evil than the poor devils below
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or you actually don't understand what's going on
Enigmatic Rainbow
Member
I've noticed it a lot too, and always assumed it usually was based on Yin and Yang:
Yea, I'd chalk it primarily up to laziness as well... but the intention doesn't really change the result.
To be clear I'm not saying the creators of such characters are racist (unlike Shadoken suggests), but that doesn't mean it's not an issue nonetheless. If I create a female character that's heavily sexualised, that doesn't mean I'm a sexist person (hell, my male character make be equally - if not moreso - sexualised in the same game)... but if it so happens that 97% of all times a female character is added to a game, this happens to be the case, whilst male characters have plenty of positive examples, then it still represents a legitimate issue in regards to portrayal within the medium.
ReyVGM
Member
Unless Sean Bean is involved.
Bacon_Boss
Member
I totally agree. While "Dark" and "Black" are used a lot to characterize "evil" versions of characters in japan(see Goku Black, Dark Link, Ryu etc.) it happens a lot in western culture too.
Unfortunately "darkness" as a concept kind of the seed of all evil in many cultures. I'm not so certain it's affecting kids perception of their black neighbors, but making black versions of characters the "evil" ones seems a little taboo, for sure.
Unfortunately "darkness" as a concept kind of the seed of all evil in many cultures. I'm not so certain it's affecting kids perception of their black neighbors, but making black versions of characters the "evil" ones seems a little taboo, for sure.
TissueBox
Member
This is a trope that, if you really want to at least temporarily suspend, (the media, the artists, people involved in the creative industry) better be devoted to pushing back the pattern for the next 10 - 15 years. I get that even if it's not intended to be racist/colorist, in the current climate it can do more good to get rid of it entirely, but that does go pretty deep into long-accepted notions of darkness and light. The final outcome will require many people to work together to uproot it.
EekumBokum
Member
This thread man. It's astounding that so many can't comprehend this, I've been aware of it since I was a child.
SicSemperTyrannis
Member
To blame our cultures assumption that dark skin = bad and light skin = good on movies, games and media in general is kind of odd to me. Even without reinforced visual representation of darker villains, I would argue the assumption that darker embodiments are antagonists is engrained long before we realize. In every religion I know of evil is portrayed by darkness, pure virtue is portrayed by light. Light vs Dark is just a theme and the fact that it is carried out in games and various media so literally isn't reinforcing any stereotype or agenda and is just a continuation of thousands of years of storytelling. If this was the reason people were racist shitbags everyone that grew up watching Disney movies, playing video games and watching tv would be a degenerate asshole to every person with a darker shade of skin. Come the fuck on people.