Lights and Waves
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Seeing it for the third time today, this time with those XD vibrating movie seats!
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Wonder Woman |OT| The World is Ready for You, Gal Gad [SPOILERS]
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I mean...you're generalizing your fear and hatred to an entire group of people based the sole characteristic of being male, so...yes, it does. Which isn't to say it's not understandable on a human level, but it is pretty much misandry by definition. This isn't even a #NotAllMen situation since that argument is predicated on the fact not generalizing all men, but also doing nothing about the systems that allowed the abuse to happen in the first place. This isn't the case here. We've changed the systems in the modern world. Slavery would literally not be legal present day by normal people and they're generally too powerful to let it happen anyway. So the system has changed.
But in any case, it's not like that's the justifcation of the movie itself. Hercules never enslaved women in this origin story. Themiscryra was just invented as all female because it didn't contain the seed of evil that is present in men. Which is actually a reverse of what happens in classic greek mythology, where they believed women were literally created as punishment for man and now are forced to live with them.
"May" as in "No you may not eat that cookie." Not "You may not be able to eat that cookie." It's a matter of permission. If they were talking about actual ability to find the place again it would have been "You may never be able to."
Diana can go back any time she wants, and I have no doubt she will be forced into doing so in the next film or the one following that to deal with either Circle or Heracles. She simply is not allowed to.
Are they asexual? Bisexual? Lesbians? Do they have sex with each other strictly for pleasure? Do they value heterosexual sex beyond reproduction? Is Diana oriented as they are or is it different because she's a god?
It seems better either to tackle this head-on or ignore it, rather than just make vague allusions.
ResidentWeevil13
Member
Just got back from an early showing. Here's my hot take. It's a solid origin picture. 7/10 or maybe 6.5/10.
It was very by the numbers, but the acting of the leads, the pacing, and the direction helped to elevate the film above mediocrity.
I worry about Wonder Woman's future, however. They should really give the character room to breath and grow outside of the DCEU. I'd love a full trilogy set in the past, with the same supporting cast around Gal Gadot. If they do what Marvel did with Captain America and just jump to the future, I'm gonna be a little disappointed.
Also, I gotta be honest, I did not like the looks of that justice league trailer. Blegh
It was very by the numbers, but the acting of the leads, the pacing, and the direction helped to elevate the film above mediocrity.
I worry about Wonder Woman's future, however. They should really give the character room to breath and grow outside of the DCEU. I'd love a full trilogy set in the past, with the same supporting cast around Gal Gadot. If they do what Marvel did with Captain America and just jump to the future, I'm gonna be a little disappointed.
Also, I gotta be honest, I did not like the looks of that justice league trailer. Blegh
Why is Diana's/the amazon's sexual history important information you need to know?
Zod gives Superman 24hrs.
Like I get they hadn't thought that far ahead, but WW would never shrug that off.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Does this movie have any during or after credits scene beyond the initial animated drawings that show at the start of the credits?
Nope. No mid- or post-credits scene.
SliceSabre
Banned
Easily the best of the DC movies I've watched since the Dark Knight. It was great getting to see the current take on Wonder Woman's home, her motivations for becoming on a hero and the gradual awakening of her super powers as the movie went along. I also loved that was was a bit of a hot-head too which is not the impression I think classic Wonder Woman has.
I have a few minor qualms about getting to know the side characters all that much, but I fully understand why they didn't get all that in depth.
All and all I can easily recommend people watch Wonder Woman as for once DC made a good superhero movie. Let's hope that continues in the future!
I have a few minor qualms about getting to know the side characters all that much, but I fully understand why they didn't get all that in depth.
We're not going to see them again anyway so why get all that in depth about the?
All and all I can easily recommend people watch Wonder Woman as for once DC made a good superhero movie. Let's hope that continues in the future!
No, you are not. First thing "the world of man" includes women. It's the world of man because
1. Men are actually there as opposed to Themyscira.
2. "Man" and "Mankind" is what humanity has called itself in the English speaking world for fucking ever.
And no, you're not generalizing shit. They don't know that slavery is generally frowned upon in the modern era. It sure as fuck wasn't when they left. This is like saying my black ass not wanting to deal with cops in the south is generalizing them for being white. Fuck no it isn't. It's the fucking culture.
Not to mention this is the 1910s. The very country Steve is from was a-okay with slavery up until just 50 years prior. Shit, we still have slavery in the world to this very fucking day.
These are not people who are holding a grudge for something that happened to other people generations ago. These are immortals who still remember being held in slavery. That's the entire point in Diana. She's the only one on the island who HASN'T been through that experience. Who doesn't know the depths of depravity that humanity is capable of.
I know you like to play devil's advocate, but what the fuck are you doing with this here?
EDIT: Also, the film literally says that humanity enslaved them. The only part they left out was Heracles.
Exactly. That is the question I would be asking the filmmaker. Why even bring this stuff up in the screenplay? Why do we need a scene where she looks at Chris Pine's penis? Why do we need to hear her say she's read books about how men and women fuck?
Their orientations most likely vary, as do all people's. The ones who fuck, fuck one another. They do not have heterosexual sex anymore because they haven't seen a man in centuries. They don't reproduce at all, which is why Diana, as stated early on in the film, is the only child on the island.
Why is any of this disturbing and why does the scene meant to establish that "No, Diana is not a 'pure', sexually naive little girl being taken advantage of as is the case in so many of these fish out of water films" have you so fixated on it?
EDIT:
If you want to understand why those scenes were in the film, it's because Jenkins was aware of this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0thpEyEwi80
And expertly negating it before having Diana and Steve spend a night together.
BronsonLee
Member
Those scenes are in there for beefcake and to be funny because Trevor doesn't want to offend or insult her, but he's interested in her nonetheless so he has to basically play Sex Minesweeper
True but there is no place for anyone to head to until Zod's ship appears over Metropolis and the minute it does the world engine gets turned on and shit goes crazy. All anyone knows before that is he's just in orbit and WW can't fly and the Earth is huge. I'm just saying story wise it makes sense why she's not there and its an easy reason.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Because of the implication that Steve picked up on. How does an island solely populated by women thrive for hundreds of years?
You bring up good points. There are characters who are genuinely misardist in various books, but that shouldn't necessarily mean the society is based on that believe. I have disagreements with you, but it's not a good time like starting up a major and sensitive discussion right now that needs more care and attention than I can give it at this moment.
Because it's an interesting point about how their society works. It's both a world building and humanizing aspect because sexuality is something that touches everyone in some way or another.
What I'm asking is why you need the personal and intimate detailed sexual history of Diana here? You said acknowledging that there IS a sexual history in the amazons brings up unfortunate implications because this has you asking what their sexual orientation is, or 'why' they have sex.
Why is any of this unfortunate and why is it stuff you need to know? Why is "Yeah, we fuck" insufficient?
BronsonLee
Member
They also don't like Steve cause he's white
I can respect that and I understand I'm coming off a bit heated.
I can't stop laughing that other people are getting angry at Diana being interested in the concept of sex.
What the fuck?
paragonpro
Banned
Can we enjoy wonder woman and appreciate it as a female led super hero movie without these biggot ass holes on twitter dragginf meninism into it? Christ people are babies. I loved it, my favortie dceu movie thus far for sure
If any of the Trinity hadn't had a roll in the hay before their film it was, and should be, Clark.
Nah. Smallville made it canon he loses his cherry to Lana while listening to Coldplay.
Why should I expect them to have the same sexual drive that mortals do? You're saying that there's some subset of Amazons that are heterosexual, and are just doomed to never have a mate for their infinite existence? Seems pretty harsh.
None of this is disturbing, it just leads to additional questions about the way their world works.
A virgin who tells you "Yeah well I've read books about sex" does not suddenly seem much more worldly and experienced. They avoid the Born Sexy Yesterday problems by having Diana be a person of strong conviction who initiates intimate contact with her partner.......like, we really didn't need to be told that she understands the mechanics of sex.
It wasn't stuff we felt a need to know, until it was brought up. Otherwise I'd probably just presume they were a group of asexual heavenly creatures that looked human but were operating on a different wavelength than humans. I never really assumed Gandalf had any particular sexuality, but I certainly would have assumed so if he started talking about learning "the pleasures of the flesh".
I did say if.
Also, we do not speak of that travesty of a show. Except for the best live action Luthor.
I know. John Glover is a magnificent bastard.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Yes. Because she realizes the world isn't due to Ares and even though she loves them she cannot save them. She is a God afterall.
For fuck sake really? Really?
Let it go. Bringing up the Holocaust in these films leads to garbage like X-Men: Apocalypse.
That's a non-issue. It does bring up further questions about how their world works without answering them, but that's not a bad thing.
To use your gandalf example, he says he wields the Flame of Anor. It's never directly explained what it is or how his magic works, but he does bring it up inviting viewer curiosity.
I don't understand your implication that it's only okay to bring up sexuality if you are going to dive deeply into it. You assumed they were asexual. That assumption was erroneous. But why is that assumption something you hold in importance that you seem upset at it's loss?
Not sure what you guys are on about, but this is WWI not WWII. I mean, if it is the Second World War, then the bad guys are more obvious and going after Hitler might actually affect some change.
I wasn't the one that brought up WW2, though if you prefer you can ask why she didn't help with any of the other human rights problems in the 20th century.
It just seems like they painted Diana into a corner. She learns to love and accept humanity for all its beauty and flaws. She can't save them all, but they are worth saving. Well, that's a fine character arc. At the film's end we see her bounding through a modern cityscape (likely Paris), looking for action. And yet we're left with the knowledge that she was non-existent on the world stage for nearly 100 years. She just gave up on being the sort of headstrong, selfless person that we were meant to admire for the course of the film.
That's more a problem with the larger DCEU than it is this film though. Wouldn't it be so much better if they had just killed the Snyder-verse, and this were actually the start of the DCEU?
DAVIDHUXLEY
Member
Some folks should crack open a history book now and then. They are very interesting.
Why don't we wait for the sequel? I'm sure you're not the only genius on earth who deducted this hot take.
BewareTheBatsie
Member
Also those glasses should have lasted more then about five minutes dammit.
At this point, I'm just going to view WW 2017 as it's own canon where Wonder Woman did participate in the world long before Superman landed in Metropolis.
There are just too many conflicts that make absolutely no sense for Wonder Woman to not willingly step in and stop. She would not ignore the goddamn holocaust.
Yeah, but then it gets much messier, and you start wandering into Star Trek Prime Directive territory, with just how much a superior force should be intervening in the direction an inferior culture takes.
Rescuing people from natural disasters like earthquakes, or man-made disasters like plane crashes is one thing. But once you "pick a side" in something like a war of nations, and consistently fight that side, you're making a political statement, you're dictating some kind of policy.
Like, I don't even know how the world would react if super heroes were around in the 19th century, and some of them started attacking British ships because they were carrying African slaves for sale to the USA.
On the one hand you could argue that "it's the right thing to do because slavery is wrong." On the other hand, both the British and American governments could legitimately declare that super hero a "bad guy" for interfering with what is--at the time--a 100% legal process. Gets messy, man.
That's why the most logical conclusion is that there is an in universe explanation for that She probably got trapped in tartarus or something,
Naw glad they got rid of it
"A pair of glasses and you think she is no longer the most beautiful woman you've ever seen" or whatever Etta says
This was actually one of my favorite scenes in the movie. Just them both giggling gleefully when Ludendorff says "But they don't know that" to Poison saying "The mask doesn't work against the gas!" made me laugh. For a moment I thought that scene hinted at some nice characterization for those two later in the movie, but sadly that didn't happen.
MrCunningham
Member
I actually liked it as well, especially the electric violin renditions in this movie.
I'm totally OK with Wonder Woman being set in modern times. But personally, I would like to see more of her past stories. This movie takes place somewhere between 1914 and 1918 (I don't remember if they gave a specific date?) and it would be kinda cool to see a sequel much further off into the future.... maybe around the time of World War 2... or possibly post WWII, like the 1950's, or the 1960's.
Doctor Poison could return for a second time in a World War 2 related storyline. The character was created during WWII and was working for the Nazi's in the original comics. She could even return as an older woman in the Vietnam/ cold war era of the 1960's, making her own insane chemical agents (like Agent Orange, but worse?) for some corrupted group within the CIA or something?
With Batman and Superman, I am totally OK with them being connected to the Justice League storyline at this point. We've had countless stand alone Batman movies at this point, and Superman has gone through two previous iterations before the DCU. But this is the first film adaption of Wonder Woman, and I would also like to see her given more breathing room in stand alone movies before heavily locking her into the DCU.
BewareTheBatsie
Member
Yeah that made me go 'wat'.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Just like humanity, she is flawed. She is portrayed as a God so it's understandable for her to be selective in this love/haye relationship. We also don't know if she bas been doing this for years. It seems she became active after recalling her tale.
My favorite line in the movie.
If I'm remembering correctly there is a in-universe reason in the comcs for why many of the more powerful heroes didn't even involved much more then they could have when it comes to World War 2. Something about the Spear of Destiny and the stuff Hitler was doing that could take control of heroes I think. Which is why many didn't go near him or the front lines for fear of being used as weapons against the Allies. A reason to not have to deal with why Superman, Wonder Woman, etc didn't win the war, etc.
They could easily play that card.
They could easily play that card.
Which...yeah, fine, but the film establishes that the Greek Gods are all dead. Whose there to keep her in Tartarus?
Honestly, this is a major fault I have to give WW. Because it takes place in WWI, it's already killing off Wonder Woman's supporting cast. No more Steve or Etta. But I thought atleast she'd have the Greek Pantheon to help her in future stories. No, they're all dead too, unless that's later retconned in having one of them survive.
The only remaining supporting cast she has is the Amazons. And they only develop her mother and Antiope, who they kill off. Hopefully they'll introduce Artemis later on.
But as of now, other than Hippolyta, Wonder Woman's entire cast is dead.
Knuckle Sandwich
Member
She was probably fighting a cyclops on Mt. Olympus or something.
Yes, and? Wonder Woman's rogue gallery is enormous. Remember Circe, the First Born, Cassandra, Maxwell Lord, Artemis, Paula Von Gunther, Cheetah, Giganta, they can use the New Gods, the hundreds of demigods, the other Amazon tribes etc. It's not like they wrote themselves into a corner.
In fact, the dead olympic pantheon seems like an early call for The First Born.
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