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I think you misunderstand how Rotten Tomatoes works. Wonder Woman and The Dark Knight both have 94%, because it means out of 100 people, 94 would say it's worth watching. But if you look at the average rating, it's 7.6 for Wonder Woman and 8.6 for The Dark Knight. It's also lower than Logan and Iron Man. And rightfully even with Winter Soldier; and if you think that's a spy movie, what's surprising about Wonder Woman being seen as a war movie.

I'm talking more just about the quotes and praise I see here ("One of the best superhero movies ever.......easily in my top 5.......9/10").....not specifically Rottenwatch.

Wonder Woman is a war movie in the same way that Rogue One is a war movie. They kinda ape some conventions of the genre in a superficial way ("Let's assemble a ragtag team of misfits to go behind enemy lines...") but don't really go beyond that. The lack of attention paid to supporting cast makes WW feel much more like a superhero movie during wartime, and not a war movie.

 

[Alienous]

Days? From Themyscira to London to Belgium...?

Yes...?

Was it weeks?

 

[SilentRob]

Any lows on the film get blown the fuck out by No Man's Land and Trevor sacrificing himself

Agreed re No Man's Land but Trevor sacrificing himself is one of the silliest things in the movie imo. It was so completely and utterly senseless and overblown. The only reason he had to sacrifice himself was so the movie could have a dramatic narrative arc.

Like...why not...land the plane? You are the only one on board. You are not being followed. There was literally zero reason for him to sacrifice himself. Could have thrown the bombs into the sea or land at some remote place or, basically, ANYTHING ELSE. Was completely unearned imo.

 

[ZombieFred]

Any lows on the film get blown the fuck out by No Man's Land and Trevor sacrificing himself

That moment when Steve paused and the sadness on his face before he sacrifices himself was so many feels.

"I Will save the day but you will save the world"

"I wish I had more time"

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

I couldn't shake the feeling of 'Born Sexy Yesterday'. I don't know, they knew each other for days.

Best chemistry over Steve/Peggy, Tony/Pepper, Peter/Gwen? I don't know about that.

It is miles better than Tony/ Pepper and Peter/Gwen.

Just watched it. Loved the beginning and middle... then the end happened. Ares was so unnecessary. For me, that whole fight was silly and unraveled the message. “There’s no Ares, people can be horrible on their own... but there is also love.” Nope, it was magic all along. Eh.

Of course there was gonna be magic and gods in this DC universe. Idk what direction you wanted it to go where they setup in the beginning that the Greek gods existed.

 

[Dead]

It is miles better than Tony/ Pepper and Peter/Gwen.

The tony/pepper thing just feels like hollow window dressing to those movies. Who cares.

Peter/Gwen was good, but Gal and Chris blow em out the water.

 

[ZombieFred]

Trevor sacrificing himself is one of the silliest things in the movie. It was so completely and utterly senseless and overblown. The only reason he had to sacrifice himself was so the movie could have a dramatic narrative arc.

Like...why not...land the plane? You are the only one on board. You are not being followed. There was literally zero reason for him to sacrifice himself. Could have thrown the bombs into the sea or land at some remote place or, basically, ANYTHING ELSE. Was completely unearned imo.

He had to get the hell out as possible since of knowing Ares was there and he wanted the war and destruction of man to continue. Ares would have had that plane executed its objective in destruction and chaos one way or another.

Anywhere else would have taken other lifes from the destruction on ground, the location they was in.

Steves death was full circle since without WW crossing paths he would have died in a plane drowing anyhow and this time he can only loose his life and help show Diana to help believe in man and have hope than everything being just black and white. Steve was a soldier and would not stand by with all above conflicting when you look at his past actions starting when he could not stay idly by with the notebook and wanting to end the war.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

I'm talking more just about the quotes and praise I see here ("One of the best superhero movies ever.......easily in my top 5.......9/10").....not specifically Rottenwatch.

Wonder Woman is a war movie in the same way that Rogue One is a war movie. They kinda ape some conventions of the genre in a superficial way ("Let's assemble a ragtag team of misfits to go behind enemy lines...") but don't really go beyond that. The lack of attention paid to supporting cast makes WW feel much more like a superhero movie during wartime, and not a war movie.

It is first and foremost a superhero movie. I don't see what's so confusing.

The tony/pepper thing just feels like hollow window dressing to those movies. Who cares.

Peter/Gwen was good, but Gal and Chris blow em out the water.

My problem with Peter/Gwen was they don't go beyond anything but "look how adorable and goofy we are together!"

 

[Media]

Just got out of it and I adored it. I haven't cared for much of the DC lineup but this was inspiring.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

lol it's as if people forgot how good a movie star Chris Pine is.

 

[Mockerre]

It is miles better than Tony/ Pepper and Peter/Gwen.

Of course there was gonna be magic and gods in this DC universe. Idk what direction you wanted it to go where they setup in the beginning that the Greek gods existed.

I wanted it to go in the direction of a quality ending for a good movie. Something more in line with Civil War (spoilers?) than a mustache-twirling 'aha!' villain. Would also prefer if Trevor was revealed to be Ares (this would require a lot of changes though, so might as well not think about this one).

 

[Shoeless]

I wanted it to go in the direction of a quality ending for a good movie. Something more in line with Civil War (spoilers?) than a mustache-twirling 'aha!' villain. Would also prefer if Trevor was revealed to be Ares (this would require a lot of changes though, so might as well not think about this one).

Civil War was actually quite impressive for not having a traditional final boss fight, or CG army to wrap things up. I do have to give the directors and screenwriters credit for not falling back on that once again.

 

[morningbus]

Agreed re No Man's Land but Trevor sacrificing himself is one of the silliest things in the movie imo. It was so completely and utterly senseless and overblown. The only reason he had to sacrifice himself was so the movie could have a dramatic narrative arc.

Like...why not...land the plane? You are the only one on board. You are not being followed. There was literally zero reason for him to sacrifice himself. Could have thrown the bombs into the sea or land at some remote place or, basically, ANYTHING ELSE. Was completely unearned imo.

The bombs were on a timer and would release/detonate no matter where they were and destroy everything for 50 miles. He flew the plane up to a safe altitude and manually detonated the bombs.

 

[Mockerre]

Civil War was actually quite impressive for not having a traditional final boss fight, or CG army to wrap things up. I do have to give the directors and screenwriters credit for not falling back on that once again.

This is what I was thinking about. If you had to have Ares, he should have been non-confrontational. His 'I will punch you with everything while wearing a Greek armor' underminded his message. Peace should have been won by love, not by a lightning-punch.

 

[kswiston]

The bombs were on a timer and would release/detonate no matter where they were and destroy everything for 50 miles. He flew the plane up to a safe altitude and manually detonated the bombs.

I was going to mention the timer too.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

lol it's as if people forgot how good a movie star Chris Pine is.

People already forgot Hell or High Water?

I wanted it to go in the direction of a quality ending for a good movie. Something more in line with Civil War (spoilers?) than a mustache-twirling 'aha!' villain. Would also prefer if Trevor was revealed to be Ares (this would require a lot of changes though, so might as well not think about this one).

Civil War had Cap and Iron Man beating the shit out of each other. It was still a spectacle to behold just as Wonder Woman is just fighting Area on an army base. If the movie wanted to it could have had the fight take place in London. Now that would have been too much. This third act was pretty sellf-contained and the fight scene was actually handled quickly as soon as Diana went god mode.

 

[DeathyBoy]

This is what I was thinking about. If you had to have Ares, he should have been non-confrontational. His 'I will punch you with everything while wearing a Greek armor' underminded his message. Peace should have been won by love, not by a lightning-punch.

Course it undermined his message, he's an asshole. His message was ludicrous.

 

[Mockerre]

People already forgot Hell or High Water?

Civil War had Cap and Iron Man beating the shit out of each other. It was still a spectacle to behold just as Wonder Woman is just fighting Area on an army base. If the movie wanted to it could have had the fight take place in London. Hay would have been too much. This third act was pretty self-contained and the fight scene was actually handled quickly as soon as Diana went god mode.

Cap and Iron Man had an emotional reason to be doing what they were doing. Ares just showed up 'sup, wanna join the dark side? No? Then let me punch you.' As I said, the fight is just unnecessary and works against Ares' argument.

Course it undermined his message, he's an asshole. His message was ludicrous.

What? His message was 'people kill themselves without the influence of magic gods.' He is right. That is what is happening in the real world. Then he goes and punches Diana.

 

[Nafai1123]

Just got back from seeing it and thought it was great. Striked all the right tones and Gal is intoxicatingly charming. Chris Pine was greeat as usual. Always been a fan of his. Heard about the romance going in but it was tastefully done and I didn't have a problem with the final fight. She learns she is a god. She needs to use her powers to complete the arc.

 

[BronsonLee]

Trevor being Ares would've been such a gut punch that I would still be in the hospital from it today if they did it

 

[Mockerre]

Trevor being Ares would've been such a gut punch that I would still be in the hospital from it today if they did it

I was so hoping this would be the case, as he showed right about the time WW demonstrated her powers.

'See, Diana, this is what humans are and do. I'm just here as a spectator. I might even help them end this war. They'll start another. Now you know the truth. You can kill me, I won't fight back. I love you.'

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Cap and Iron Man had an emotional reason to be doing what they were doing. Ares just showed up 'sup, wanna join the dark side? No? Then let me punch you.' As I said, the fight is just unnecessary and works against Ares' argument.



What? His message was 'people kill themselves without the influence of magic gods.' He is right. That is what is happening in the real world. Then he goes and punches Diana.

She had a mission to kill him. She stuck by that mission. She rid the world of his corrupted influence without needing to kill all the Germans at the base. Area was not gonna let her leave and heal humanity nor was Diana gonna successfully convince him.

Trevor being Ares would've been such a gut punch that I would still be in the hospital from it today if they did it

Travor being Area is like Jimmy from BvS getting shot. Fans would not have liked it.

 

[timberger]

Just saw the movie, really surprised by how much fun it was, but Christ Gal Gadot was awful in most of the scenes where she had to talk. There were scenes where it even felt like they'd gone out of their way to keep her dialogue to a minimum. Real shame... besides that and the occasional terrible CGI shot this was pretty much a perfect comic book movie.

Hopefully not too late for JL to learn some lessons from it.

 

[Shoeless]

I was so hoping this would be the case, as he showed right about the time WW demonstrated her powers.

'See, Diana, this is what humans are and do. I'm just here as a spectator. I might even help them end this war. They'll start another. Now you know the truth. You can kill me, I won't fight back. I love you.'

I can see the appeal of this ending.

On the other hand, I would also be incredibly traumatized by this.

 

[Ashhong]

I was so hoping this would be the case, as he showed right about the time WW demonstrated her powers.

'See, Diana, this is what humans are and do. I'm just here as a spectator. I might even help them end this war. They'll start another. Now you know the truth. You can kill me, I won't fight back. I love you.'

This sounds terrible. Not the Steve I want to see. Maybe if it was a sequel with some other dude

And of course Ares woild fight Diana. Hes fucking Ares. He wants the fights and wars to happen. He doesn't want Diana to save the say

 

[BronsonLee]

Travor being Area is like Jimmy from BvS getting shot. Fans would not have liked it.

I'm not sure how I would take it if it actually happened tbh because Trevor is really only second to Diana in the charming department, but it would've felt like a twist for no reason. They at least did set up Thewlis being Ares somewhat

 

[The Adder]

The bombs were on a timer and would release/detonate no matter where they were and destroy everything for 50 miles. He flew the plane up to a safe altitude and manually detonated the bombs.

More specifically, he burned the gas to neutralize it, since they were hydrogen based. The film showed us how this works when it Doctor Poison's first successful test. She clears the glass sphere by igniting the gas.

I remember this because when the team was discussing how to deal with the gas without killing people I was impressed that the film and given us all the pieces in advance without having to do any long exposition.

Steve tells his bosses its hydrogen based.

We see Dr. Poison burn the gas away.

So in that last scene, when Steve asks if it can be burned and the answer is "it's hydrogen, yes" we only needed that sentence and nothing more to assemble the puzzle.

 

[Biggest-Geek-Ever]

What? His message was 'people kill themselves without the influence of magic gods.' He is right. That is what is happening in the real world. Then he goes and punches Diana.

Except he's telling them the best way to kill themselves and serves on the Imperial War Cabinet. Even if he's not mind-controlling, that's a lot of influencing going on. And then you have the soldiers all hugging right after he dies, which makes it even less clear whether he really was influencing them more directly or not.

That entire part of the film is incredibly shoddy; it's one part philosophy on the darkness of humanity and one part wham bang DBZ fight with some rough visual effects. The two pieces don't gel at all and end up hurting each other.

 

[Mockerre]

She had a mission to kill him. She stuck by that mission. She rid the world of his corrupted influence without needing to kill all the Germans at the base. Area was not gonna let her leave and heal humanity nor was Diana gonna successfully convince him.

I know what her mission was She was 'tasked' with killing war. She killed war. Nothing was REALLY solved (WWII happens etc) - because humans are the way they are. I'm just saying that this resolution was weak for me and the movie didn't need it. It was perfectly fine with 'the general was not Ares, oh God, they do it to themselves'. That way it would tell us something about the nature of war. That Trevor speech about 'it's all of us' was great.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the movie, the characters, the actors, the direction. Just wanted... something more than a boxing match for peace. This isn't a criticism to WW alone, a lot of comic book movies are guilty of this (thankfully we were spared the color laser into the sky this time).

Except he's telling them the best way to kill themselves and serves on the Imperial War Cabinet. Even if he's not mind-controlling, that's a lot of influencing going on. And then you have the soldiers all hugging right after he dies, which makes it even less clear whether he really was influencing them more directly or not.

That entire part of the film is incredibly shoddy; it's one part philosophy on the darkness of humanity and one part wham bang DBZ fight with some rough visual effects. The two pieces don't gel at all and end up hurting each other.

But... Ares is dead and WWII still happens, so it clearly wasn't his whispers that did the trick That hugging was too much for me, undercut the horrors of war.

This sounds terrible. Not the Steve I want to see. Maybe if it was a sequel with some other dude

And of course Ares woild fight Diana. Hes fucking Ares. He wants the fights and wars to happen. He doesn't want Diana to save the say

I can see the appeal of this ending.

On the other hand, I would also be incredibly traumatized by this.

I agree to a point, I liked the Trevor characterisation, the emotions felt genuine, so going with this ending would be hard for me emotionally too. But it would be more powerful (and emotional...), especially if Ares DIDN'T fight back. You see, thay would make killing him a crime and Diana no better. Maybe her walking away from him? Maybe he lost his powers when Zeus cast him down and he was really just a human (though immortal)? I don't know, I'm not saying I got this all figured out

I agree with ElBoxyBrown though, 'fans' might have not liked this ending.

 

[border]

Except he's telling them the best way to kill themselves and serves on the Imperial War Cabinet. Even if he's not mind-controlling, that's a lot of influencing going on.

Why was he pushing for the armistice again? Wouldn't his plans be better served just letting everyone fight?

 

[The Adder]

Why was he pushing for the armistice again? Wouldn't his plans be better served just letting everyone fight?

Because it wouldn't last and the next one would be worse.

He was right.

 

[ZombieFred]

Another note, who was impressed with how they manage to find a perfect way on using the lasso of truth in the film and combat? I was getting some Devil May Cry stylish action vibes with those parts, in the best of ways!

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Why was he pushing for the armistice again? Wouldn't his plans be better served just letting everyone fight?

He knew peace would anger the general and force him to do terrible things to escalate the war.

 

[The Adder]

Another note, who was impressed with how they manage to find a perfect way on using the lasso of truth in the film and combat? I was getting some Devil May Cry stylish action vibes with those parts, in the best of ways!

Was super glad the sword was gone for the last fight.

 

[RipperGrim]

The no man's land scene solidified wonder woman as a bonified hero more than superman has been portrayed in this current DC universe in my opinion, only other scene that is the same is Bruce Wayne running into the dust cloud while everyone is running away. I do think wonder woman's scene was better though, everyone was basically telling her that this is just how it is and there's nothing to be done, that she must just accept it and of course she proves them all wrong.

My favourite scene though was the confrontation with Chris pine after she killed the German general dude and saw nothing changed, Chris did a very good job acting wise and I liked the message it had, pretty mature for a superhero movie even if it was marred a bit by Ares actually being real but he at least only influenced people instead of outright being the reason for the war and the evil in man.

Overall the movie is quite deserving of it's hype and a triumph for DC, I can happily say it's one of the best movies I have seen this year and easily sits among Marvel's best.

Why was he pushing for the armistice again? Wouldn't his plans be better served just letting everyone fight?

He basically explained that he knew it was unsustainable and was building the grounds for WW2. That's what I figured anyway.

 

[Shoeless]

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the movie, the characters, the actors, the direction. Just wanted... something more than a boxing match for peace. This isn't a criticism to WW alone, a lot of comic book movies are guilty of this (thankfully we were spared the color laser into the sky this time).

I get what you're saying. We were talking about this earlier in the thread, and I was saying something to the effect of it would have been more interesting if they'd continued to portray Ares as Prince of Lies rather than turn it into a fist fight. It would have been very interesting for Diana to have to--in one sense--fight herself. Like if Ares had told her that now she understood humanity couldn't be trusted to do this stuff, because they go to war themselves, on themselves, and the only way to stop them is for someone superior, like her, for instance, to make them stop by force of rule.

That would been somewhat believable, because Diana is at a tipping point where she realizes she can help these people, and it's not that big a leap to say "I can help them even more by taking control and FORCING them to do the right thing or face my wrath," and then back away from that and understand that humanity has to choose this. She can't make them behave under penalty of death.

That to me is why Civil War had one of the more memorable endings in recent superhero memory. They were actually willing to forgo the Big Bad Final Boss Fight, and on top of that, the heroes basically lost.

 

[Biggest-Geek-Ever]

But... Ares is dead and WWII still happens, so it clearly wasn't his whispers that did the trick That hugging was too much for me, undercut the horrors of war.

Which makes the whole thing even weirder and why introducing Ares was a big mistake, heh.

It does make me wonder what other plot points in movies are made worse and/or more confusing by real life.

 

[Mockerre]

I get what you're saying. We were talking about this earlier in the thread, and I was saying something to the effect of it would have been more interesting if they'd continued to portray Ares as Prince of Lies rather than turn it into a fist fight. It would have been very interesting for Diana to have to--in one sense--fight herself. Like if Ares had told her that now she understood humanity couldn't be trusted to do this stuff, because they go to war themselves, on themselves, and the only way to stop them is for someone superior, like her, for instance, to make them stop by force of rule.

That would been somewhat believable, because Diana is at a tipping point where she realizes she can help these people, and it's not that big a leap to say "I can help them even more by taking control and FORCING them to do the right thing or face my wrath," and then back away from that and understand that humanity has to choose this. She can't make them behave under penalty of death.

That to me is why Civil War had one of the more memorable endings in recent superhero memory. They were actually willing to forgo the Big Bad Final Boss Fight, and on top of that, the heroes basically lost.

Yup. Also note that Diana is told she must stop conflict with... conflict. Her mother wants for her to lead a peaceful life and then she throws it all away, starts killing German soldiers on the beach. It'd be great if Ares (in any incarnation) pointed out this contradition, make Diana, as you say, 'fight herself'.

 

[Haloid1177]

Not as great as expected but still good. Gal and Pine were awesome, but the opening felt a little disjointed and rushed, the second act was fucking awesome, and the finale was just not good. I enjoyed it overall though.

 

[Fix The Scientist]

Well i was expecting that to be much better. It just felt a little confused and jumbled, certainly nothing special.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Which makes the whole thing even weirder and why introducing Ares was a big mistake, heh.

It does make me wonder what other plot points in movies are made worse and/or more confusing my real life.

Ares' influence on man wasn't fully stopped. He already infected more than enough humans to where War is just apart of nature. All of this has to be due to the Amazons spending way too much time on the island while the rest of the world was being shaped by him.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Which makes the whole thing even weirder and why introducing Ares was a big mistake, heh.

It does make me wonder what other plot points in movies are made worse and/or more confusing my real life.

Ares created a shitty armistice that would lead to an even worse war. Don't sleep during films Gaffers.

 

[Alienous]

Ares created a shitty armistice that would lead to an even worse war. Don't sleep during films Gaffers.

To be fair he explains this all while doing his best Magneto impression so I can understand the message of his actions being lost.

 

[Mockerre]

Ares' influence on man wasn't fully stopped. He already infected more than enough humans to where War is just apart of nature. All of this has to be due to the Amazons spending way too much time on the island while the rest of the world was at Ares' mercy.

This is just your conjecture though. There was no mention of an 'infection', we don't know how Ares magic worked, so you're just speculating. What was clearly told/shown in the movie was: a) everyone was buddy-buddy by the end (Germans and Allies hugging) and b) Amazons believed killing Ares would solve everything.

Of course, the Amazons could've been wrong. The message here would be 'war cannot be stopped by killing one man, it must be won in peoples' hearts' not 'but his magic infection spread too far'. Just my 2 cents.

Ares created a shitty armistice that would lead to an even worse war. Don't sleep during films Gaffers.

And then to the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Gulf War, War on Drugs and War on Terror. That armstrice sure was a masterstroke. Seriously though, it's not Ares' plan that is flawed, it's that killing him is pointless. As is fighting Diana.

 

[DeathyBoy]

To be fair he explains this all while doing his best Magneto impression so I can understand the message of his actions being lost.

There is something amusing about Magneto yelling at a man named Charles while Ares yells at a woman named Diana.

It's like poetry..,

 

[The Adder]

Yup. Also note that Diana is told she must stop conflict with... conflict. Her mother wants for her to lead a peaceful life and then she throws it all away, starts killing German soldiers on the beach. It'd be great if Ares (in any incarnation) pointed out this contradition, make Diana, as you say, 'fight herself'.

Diana is not a pacifist. Combat and conflict are not inherently evil. Love and fighting are not mutually exclusive. The problem with wars is the horror we are willing to commit while engaged in them. The harm we cause to claim victory. The lengths we'll go to avoid defeat.

Fighting, and even killing when necessary, one who would seek to prolong the enterprise of war, when they are an active combatant, especially one on par or greater than her, is not a moral quandary for Wonder Woman and should never be.

Killing someone guilty as sin but of no active threat? That's where mercy should be shown.

 

[elrechazado]

Ares created a shitty armistice that would lead to an even worse war. Don't sleep during films Gaffers.

Amazing how many people in here didn't hear the dialogue about the bomb timers and why the plane had to be flown away.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Amazing how many people in here didn't hear the dialogue about the bomb timers and why the plane had to be flown away.

But is Alfred dreaming the end of TDKR?

 

[Mockerre]

Diana is not a pacifist. Combat and conflict are not inherently evil. Love and fighting are not mutually exclusive. The problem with wars is the horror we are willing to commit while engaged in them. The harm we cause to claim victory. The lengths we'll go to avoid defeat.

Fighting, and even killing when necessary, one who would seek to prolong the enterprise of war, when they are an active combatant, especially one on par or greater than her, is not a moral quandary for Wonder Woman and should never be.

Killing someone guilty as sin but of no active threat? That's where mercy should be shown.

Well, we could argue this and it would be a great moral dilemma, I can find both points and counterpoints for your stance. I'm not saying Diana should've become a pacifist by the end, just that Ares might have tried to pull that string - after all, she was killing guys only because she wanted to get to Ares, then she learned that it wasn't Ares after all and she stopped fighting (didn't help Trevor and the gang).

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

This is just your conjecture though. There was no mention of an 'infection', we don't know how Ares magic worked, so you're just speculating. What was clearly told/shown in the movie was: a) everyone was buddy-buddy by the end (Germans and Allies hugging) and b) Amazons believed killing Ares would solve everything.

Of course, the Amazons could've been wrong. The message here would be 'war cannot be stopped by killing one man, it must be won in peoples' hearts' not 'but his magic infection spread too far'. Just my 2 cents.



And then to the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Gulf War, War on Drugs and War on Terror. That armstrice sure was a masterstroke. Seriously though, it's not Ares' plan that is flawed, it's that killing him is pointless. As is fighting Diana.

Ares explained prettt clear what he was doing with humanity throughout the years. I think it's not hard to guess what he did before and set forth for generations to come. The Amazons didn't know the whole truth about Ares and neither did Diana.