It's all just kinda lame misdirection and a convoluted scheme for a twist that doesn't have much payoff ("The minor character you paid no attention to is actually the bad guy"). I agree with the critique that "secret villains" is becoming kind of a tired trope. Introducing the villain in the last 15 minutes is a lot of heavy lifting for a film to do, though it works better here because we're honestly not sure if Ares is going to turn up at all.
Wonder Woman |OT| The World is Ready for You, Gal Gad [SPOILERS]
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It's all just kinda lame misdirection and a convoluted scheme for a twist that doesn't have much payoff ("The minor character you paid no attention to is actually the bad guy"). I agree with the critique that "secret villains" is becoming kind of a tired trope. Introducing the villain in the last 15 minutes is a lot of heavy lifting for a film to do, though it works better here because we're honestly not sure if Ares is going to turn up at all.
Biggest-Geek-Ever
Member
If he's playing 12 dimensional chess to get us to WW2, then why manipulate the air so the formula from the hydrogen gas catches Dr. Poison's attention? I can accept that he wants to show Diana how destructive humans are at this moment, but then he immediately starts fighting her.
Ares is a bad character, and the film is constantly sending mixed messages about exactly what role he has with humanity and war. At best, he robs the movie of a truly morally complex final act.
But sorry, I guess I fell asleep during both times I saw this movie.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Ares had to fight Diana cuz she was gonna stop the bomb.
She stopped fighting because THAT was her actual moral quandary. Whether or not humanity was worth fighting for. Whether or not they even could be helped if all of this was their own doing and not Ares'. That was where she was tested. I would argue stacking another, much less thematically appropriate (for the film OR the character) one on top would just come off as redundant and needlessly preachy.
Ares also told Diana that it was not his magic that made people do what they do, he just gave them the tools. So... do you believe only part of what he's saying (the part you liked)?
DoctorFling
Member
I liked the movie! Real breath of fresh air after the previous DCEU films. My only big problems were the overuse of slow-mo, dodgy CGI and too many 'splosions at the end. Really wish they started their movie universe with this film, hell I would've loved to have seen this crew tackle Superman.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
I believe the part where he whispered ideas of war and violence into people's ear.
Ares showing up was redundant and needlessly preachy for that moral quandry, though :/
Agreed.
Gabriel_Logan
Member
Mediocre movie for me, some of the dialogue is so fucking terrible it was hard to watch. Best characters were Chris Pine's secretary and the Scottish guy. The 2009 animated movie is far superior. Watch that.
The initial death of 'Ares' (Ludendorff), followed by the war continuing unabated, was a pretty good idea. But they undermine it by the death of the real Ares being followed by shots of German soldiers acting as though they had just awoken from mind-control and the next scene being 'the War is over'. So the death of Ares does, effectively, signal the end of the war.
Far superior. Better character development, better origin story telling. 'Why does Wonder Woman wear those colors?' - 'As a sign of respect, being an emissary'. Here: I guess the armor was just there, because she's the godkiller.
Far superior. Better character development, better origin story telling. 'Why does Wonder Woman wear those colors?' - 'As a sign of respect, being an emissary'. Here: I guess the armor was just there, because she's the godkiller.
Just got back and thought it was fantastic. The No Mans Land scene just blew me away. I'd lost hope in DC after MoS/BvS/SS, but WW brought it back. Going to see Justice League solely for more of her.
I do agree Ares and the fight between him/WW was bad. Everything else I thought was terrific.
I do agree Ares and the fight between him/WW was bad. Everything else I thought was terrific.
Which isn't actually relevant to the point we, the two of us, were discussing, so...
BronsonLee
Member
I'm not watching no fuckin cartoon
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Azzerello's Ares had to have been the inspiration for this movie version:
It took all the good stuff form that movie and made it better without Trevor's fuckboy attitude and the pointless middle section.
It took all the good stuff form that movie and made it better without Trevor's fuckboy attitude and the pointless middle section.
My original point was 'Ares is not necessary/is detrimental to the conclusion of the story'. If there was no Ares, there would not be a need for another point in the 'come to the dark side' speech
broncobuster
Banned
Yes. Steve Trevor was a punk in the animated movie.
Nah. The recent movie has 0 Amazonian character development. A rushed Diana-Steve relationship. A worse portrayal of Ares. Amazonians aren't made of paper-mache in the animated movie.
The animated movie did better with the same ideas.
BronsonLee
Member
anime is wrong no matter what country it comes from
Astral Dog
Member
I watched the animated movie and quickly forgot about it.i assure you this film will not be forgotten so easily, much less with gadot and Pine's outstanding performance and impacting scenary.
The one thing the cartoon was better is probably Ares himself
And that explanation for the outfit is silly at best
Yes, and the Steve Trevor/Diana Prince relationship feels far more real in this movie than the cartoon. Pine and Gadot have excellent chemistry.
I wasn't as impressed with Gadot in Batman v. Superman as a lot of other people were. Maybe, it's because I was so disappointed with the movie as a whole, that she couldn't drag her way out of the muck. In this movie, though, she's heroic and charming. Her confident smile reminds me so much of Christopher Reeves' in its attitude. Gadot's performance as Wonder Woman will be the standard for the character in the same way that Reeves' performance became the comparative bar for Superman (and Clark Kent).
As the father of daughters, it was incredibly cool to see a powerful role model on screen: intelligent, powerful, and charasmatic. We liked it so much, we almost bought tickets to the next showing of the movie, but decided we didn't have time.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
The Amazons had plenty of enough character and didn't need them to tag along into some bigger plot to destroy the island, we didn't need Steve Trevor acting like a fuckboy to try to sleep with Diana only for the movie to pull some "both sides" BS when Trevor's sexism is called into question, Ares is a mix of his New 52 version where he's subtle and the classic Perez take where he is a monster, and the Amazons are not Superman. They also died in the intro sequence in the animated movie and in the final battle.
C'mon, even you gotta admit it's amazing that a Steve Trevor from WWI is less sexist than the animated movies' modern Steve Trevor.
Can someone outline what was so great about Diana and Steve's relationship.
Like this 'chemistry' - I didn't really see it. I saw Gal Gadot smiling a lot, but she does the same with the Irish singing guy.
Like, when did they even fall in love?
Amazing? I guess. But I find him to be a less interesting character for it. Having a conversion from being a chauvinist, rather than just being this outstanding dude throughout, is more of a character arc.
Like this 'chemistry' - I didn't really see it. I saw Gal Gadot smiling a lot, but she does the same with the Irish singing guy.
Like, when did they even fall in love?
Amazing? I guess. But I find him to be a less interesting character for it. Having a conversion from being a chauvinist, rather than just being this outstanding dude throughout, is more of a character arc.
TestMonkey
Member
With only the love of a man can woman reach her full potential. I was expecting more. Am as disappointed as when I read the ending of Lean In.
When it started snowing.
BronsonLee
Member
THAT'S what you took from that?
Huh?
Saw the movie this morning and thought it was great. Diana has the same moral compass as Steve Rogers and it makes it easy to root for her.
The No Man's Land action sequence was the high point. The final battle/boss fight wasn't nearly as good, but I did think it was necessary to show how powerful Wonder Woman is. Her going up against regular humans makes her look like a more powerful Captain America; going up against the God of War shows what she's really capable of.
Gal Gadot fits the Wonder Woman role as much as Chris Evans does with Captain America. Chris Pine did a great job too and showed you don't need super powers to be a hero.
The No Man's Land action sequence was the high point. The final battle/boss fight wasn't nearly as good, but I did think it was necessary to show how powerful Wonder Woman is. Her going up against regular humans makes her look like a more powerful Captain America; going up against the God of War shows what she's really capable of.
Gal Gadot fits the Wonder Woman role as much as Chris Evans does with Captain America. Chris Pine did a great job too and showed you don't need super powers to be a hero.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
The "man who goes to an island full of women and acts like a macho dudebro" is super cliche. We've seen it used in so many things. It's like, can't a guy just crash land on an island full of women and not act like a horny asshole? Trevor in this movie knew the deal and played along cuz he had other important matters like getting out alive and delivering important information. And the movie found another way to discuss gender politics without needing one character to act out of bounds.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Why did WW called Ares "brother"? Wouldn't he be her uncle since she's Zeus' daughter?
Ares is the son of Zeus.
Knuckle Sandwich
Member
Zeus is his daddy too.
Yeah, I actually took it to mean that she considers herself a daughter of Zeus, since it was implied that not only did Zeus give her life when she was sculpted as a statute, but he may have actually imbued her with the last of his power/essence before fading out and leaving Ares as, supposedly, the last Olympian.
Alex_Mexico
Member
I could've sworn he was his brother just as Hades was. Oh well
She wasn't sculpted, she is literally the child of zeus
There are so many scenes where they build a relationship:
- The healing pool. Diana is looking at Steve, but there's sexual tension there. There's also some early ease with each other, as Steve becomes less careful with his towel, a subtle sign of immediate intimacy.
- On the boat: They "sleep" together, after a flirtatious "argument", and Diana tells Steve men aren't needed for pleasure. Again, for people who just met, this is pretty intimate.
- When Steve sees Diana in her last outfit she tries on to try and disguise herself, it's super conservative, but he looks at her in a very romantic way, even for just a second. Most movies would save that for the gala they attend later when she's in her evening gown. Having Diana wear something less glamorous shows how interested Steve is.
- When he grabs the lasso of truth to show he's being honest, that continues their growing intimacy.
- In the "No Man's Land" scene when Diana shows courage, Steve rushes to help her after screaming her name. Yes, it could have been the same for any of his other squad mates, but it does deepen their relationship.
- When they begin to dance, and Diana says, "You're so close" it's extremely well done. Steve barely notices the loving look she gives him, but Jenkins makes sure the audience notices. And, when it starts snowing, that clinches it.
By the time we hear Steve tell Diana, "I love you" it feels earned, even though we know it's coming.
I'm sure there are more examples, but it's very well done for a mere subplot.
Just got back from this, flat out loved it.
As a DC fan this was like heaven, everything worked and worked really well, from the casting and character work(I sure as shit bought Diana and Steve more than Lois and Clark or probably any other superhero pairing), to the action(her tearing through the Germans after Steve died was so, so good), to the supporting characters(this movie did the Howling Commandos better than Cap 1), it was all there and it all worked. And as someone who thought Gal Gadot was going to be a dud I am ecstatic that I was so wrong.
As a DC fan this was like heaven, everything worked and worked really well, from the casting and character work(I sure as shit bought Diana and Steve more than Lois and Clark or probably any other superhero pairing), to the action(her tearing through the Germans after Steve died was so, so good), to the supporting characters(this movie did the Howling Commandos better than Cap 1), it was all there and it all worked. And as someone who thought Gal Gadot was going to be a dud I am ecstatic that I was so wrong.
Wha, really?
Why did I think she was sculpted from clay and given life through Zeus? Maybe I'm just mixing up the comic book with the movie now.
Vermillion
Banned
Idk why heroes always pass up killing one evil person in favor of another. You can totally kill both. Getting rid of Dr. Poison wouldn't have changed anything - you could still kill Ares, dude.
Movie and her original origin says sculpted by Zeus. She's only actually Zeus's daughter in New 52 and beyond, IIRC.
EDIT: Or maybe the movie did both.
Movie and her original origin says sculpted by Zeus. She's only actually Zeus's daughter in New 52 and beyond, IIRC.
EDIT: Or maybe the movie did both.
That's the story they told her to hide the truth that she is the daughter of Zeus.
Her mom told her she was sculpted from clay. That was a lie to her.
BewareTheBatsie
Member
It's what we're lead to believe in her origin early in the movie. That was she sculpted and given life. It's near the end where we discover she is the actual child of Zeus.
Yeah, I have to admit, if you're talking about Diana & Steve vs Lois & Clark, Diana & Steve is no contest.
you're not wrong as that is what her mother told her.
Nemesis121
Member
She was lied too, Ares told her the truth during battle...
BronsonLee
Member
Incredulous Diana is also best Diana, she couldn't possibly believe Trevor would lie to his commanders and it was hilarious