John Bilbo
Member
Endgame is where the Marvel movies really fell off. There is no recovering from how they handled time travel and all the people coming back.
Marvel reveals The New Avengers (spoilers obviously)
- Thread starter bitbydeath
- Start date
- News Spoilers
Barakov
Member
MrTroubleMaker
Member
Soodanim
Member
"We just can't win this fight. We can't save humanity"
"Yes we can. We need... An Old Avenger"
Audience members gasp and cheer, women cry, Americans clap
Then they time travel and we think they're going to get a top tier Avenger but they only get Hawkeye. Humanity is wiped out and the MCU ends because they completely dropped the ball and sunk the biggest movie IP of the last 20 years.
"Yes we can. We need... An Old Avenger"
Audience members gasp and cheer, women cry, Americans clap
Then they time travel and we think they're going to get a top tier Avenger but they only get Hawkeye. Humanity is wiped out and the MCU ends because they completely dropped the ball and sunk the biggest movie IP of the last 20 years.
wipeout364
Member
I am not a fan of Florence Pugh's looks and I am not sure why they have made her front and center but I am planning to see this in the theaters because it looks like it's decent.
The Thunderbolts were an avengers team during the civil war. They were a fake avengers that the Green Goblin set up from the Tunderbolts. They were supervillains though and cooler and more powerful than this movie team. It was a cool premise because many heroes were missing so the government created this team of supervillains and dressed them up as the original heroes to both stop unregistered superheroes and calm the public . I think they went by the Dark Avengers but to the public they were just the Avengers.
The Thunderbolts were an avengers team during the civil war. They were a fake avengers that the Green Goblin set up from the Tunderbolts. They were supervillains though and cooler and more powerful than this movie team. It was a cool premise because many heroes were missing so the government created this team of supervillains and dressed them up as the original heroes to both stop unregistered superheroes and calm the public . I think they went by the Dark Avengers but to the public they were just the Avengers.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
yeah dark avengers had osborn as "iron-man", gargan as spider-man, moonstone as ms marvel and bullseye as hawkeye
wipeout364
Member
I think that could have been a more interesting team to have in the MCU and could have set up some interesting dynamics. I believe they had Venom as Spider-Man for awhile as well.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
yeah that was gargan, he had the venom symbiote during that time instead of brock.
StreetsofBeige
Member
I always hate when a movie has all English, when it shouldnt be. Make it more believable with foreign languages and add subtitles.
It's like watching Star Trek and everything in the universe speaks English.... oh that's because humanity invented a gadget that can translate every alien language in the galaxy to english.
If that's the case then why do they speak english to each other.
I was never a ST fan, but when I saw the first ST reboot film way back with Chris Pine. The stupidest thing was the alien bad guy spoke better English than most of the cast. lol
The "all english" thing has always been a Star Trek trope, even when it makes no damned sense (Troy infiltrating a Romulan ship for example, is she still speaking 'english' to Romulans or do they just see her speaking it but hear Romulan in their head?). But it works, usually, because star trek aliens are very humanlike, thus ought to be able to make english noises with their mouths.
For Star Wars, this trend is KILLING the immersion. Up till recently virtually all aliens spoke their language and we either had subtitles or the "let me repeat what you just said back to you" trick like Han does with Chewbacca or the droids. The OT had just a few aliens speaking in english and it was important stuff (like, "It's a TRAP!") where reading a subtitle would be distracting. Aliens speaking english either had a real thick accent (which of course got Lucas in a bit of hot water with TPM, it would have been waaay worse now) or were pretty human like themselves. Alas, now we have aliens speaking in comical british accents that don't fit their 'look' at all, it's terrible.
Marvel is doing the same, the goofy Taika accent for the rock guy, etc. I guess its ultimately a silly thing to argue over but I think it's a degradation of the medium.
Doom85
Member
What are you guys talking about? The Black Widow movie showed Yelena and Alexei lived in the U.S. for quite a while when Yelena was a child. This is flat out referenced multiple times in Thunderbolts when they bring up Yelena's American soccer team. It's flat out the reason the movie is called Thunderbolts*. Also, both had been clearly living in the U.S. for a while when this movie starts.
In fact, Alexei never raised Yelena in Russia, she went to the Red Room after the family left the U.S.
Edit: oh wait, the first poster admitted to rushing the film, no wonder they missed details like that.
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That does kina beg the question why she speaks in accented english then, if it was her first language, or she learned it as a child at least.
And then Natasha, who WAS raised in Russia I believe, has flawless english.
Just gotta chalk it up to the choices of the actresses, I guess.
Doom85
Member
They were Russian spies. Alexei and the mother most likely used Russian accents when they were in their home. Then Yelena is taken into the Red Room. The Red Room took girls from all nations. So the Red Room teachers probably used English as a default (and taught the non-English speaking one's English) as teaching them assassins and such it would be important to know one of the most used languages. In fact, since the Red Room served Russia, that would be the language that would be the lowest importance to teach them, they likely rarely had to commit missions against people inside their own nation.
Natasha was raised with Yelena under Alexei and her mother, not sure why you would think otherwise even if you forgot that detail in the Black Widow movie as her being Alexei's sister is brought up several times in Thunderbolts.
Natasha was out of the Red Room's Black Widow program and working for SHIELD by the time we first meet her in the MCU. Hawkeye was the one who saved her and convinced SHIELD to give her a chance. Yelena didn't get out until the Black Widow movie which is sometime after Civil War but pre-Infinity War. Also, Alexei was a victim of the Snap but not Natasha. So Alexei hasn't had anywhere near as much time to shake the Russian accent that she would have had more time to develop as she was working under the Red Room for much longer.
I'm not sure you know how learning languages work. If these girls were raised speaking 'normal' english, then even if they knew/spoke russian as well they wouldn't have a russian accented english. If Yelena and Natasha were both raised together equally, then why the divergent english accents? If I was creating a soviet spy program to infiltrate the US, why teach them to speak like a russian?
Seems pretty obvious to me that Florence Pugh could do a passable russian accent (and they didn't want whatever 'british' accent she usual uses) so they went with that, while Scarlett either couldn't do a russian accent or Favreau thought it would be too distracting in IM2 and Whedon ran with it, locking the character into an american accent for the rest of her run. I seriously doubt anyone sat down to try to figure out which girl should sound like what, it's just what each actress could bring.
Doom85
Member
I already explained this. Yelena stayed in the Red Room's Black Widow program longer than Natasha. So she would have heard Russian-accented English around here much more often than Natasha did.
The spy thing was when they were living as a family in the U.S. Once she had become a full Black Widow, it was more about taking out targets, and not exclusively in the U.S. She wasn't hiding in the U.S. for long periods as a fake citizen to gather intel or anything. There would be no reason to hide her accent as an adult.
We have a lot of Russian folks in my country, their kids even though they hear Russian accented Hebrew it doesn't translate to them speaking in accented Hebrew. They speak regular Hebrew.
Also again, her Russian accent is just not good in the movie anyway.
Doom85
Member
Ooookay, but Yelena is 25 or so when we first see her in Black Widow. Why are you comparing her to some Russian children?
I dunno even know why this is a debate. Let's move on. Her accent is not good, why she has one, that's for the ages.
Yelena spent what, 3 years in America? Natasha as well, both in that ultra critical childhood period where you can really learn proper language. There is NO WAY, within the established fictional background, Yelena should be speaking "like dis, vit a rooshian axxent" while Nastasha is straight up american sounding. Whether or not her adoptive parents should have been able to speak unaccented english is also debatable, kinda hard to be an undercover agent in the US in the 90's sounding like you just stepped out of the Kremlin, but whatever.
What they DON'T do is have normal russian, normal english, and then this accented english when speaking to each other. The MCU isn't interested in lots of subtitles so I understand the reason Yelena and Red Guardian don't speak much, if any, russian to each other in private. It's just the nature of film and the qualities of the actors to make these choices, trying to fanwank it into making perfect sense is never gonna work.
Doom85
Member
Acting and accents tend to not look/sound good when played in 1.25x speed, I am aware.
Dude, we didn't even see Alexei in the timeline since the Black Widow movie. Which again, is between Civil War and Infinity War. So he may have spent near a decade living in the U.S. by the time we see him in Thunderbolts. I don't find it hard to believe he's speak to English to his daughter, and since she likely spoke mostly English to him while he was raising her in the U.S., it makes sense she'd also speak English to him.
And no, you clearly don't know much about accent changes or have a very narrow experience of it if you think that childhood permanently cements an accent or something. My cousin moving to Boston in her 20's and then leaving it in her 30's and how quickly she both gained and lost a Boston accent in that time speaks to that.
Sigh, way to miss the point.Acting and accents tend to not look/sound good when played in 1.25x speed, I am aware.
Dude, we didn't even see Alexei in the timeline since the Black Widow movie. Which again, is between Civil War and Infinity War. So he may have spent near a decade living in the U.S. by the time we see him in Thunderbolts. I don't find it hard to believe he's speak to English to his daughter, and since she likely spoke mostly English to him while he was raising her in the U.S., it makes sense she'd also speak English to him.
And no, you clearly don't know much about accent changes or have a very narrow experience of it if you think that childhood permanently cements an accent or something. My cousin moving to Boston in her 20's and then leaving it in her 30's and how quickly she both gained and lost a Boston accent in that time speaks to that.
I'll just leave this debate where it is. Any professional linguists here can weigh in, or first generation immigrants.
Doom85
Member
Well, hopefully those "professionals" actually remember the events of the Black Widow movie and this movie, otherwise their opinions aren't that relevant. And why would immigrants be comparable, as I said they switched countries multiple times and were raised under a very unique program involving girls from all nations and being taught by Russian instructors but learning and retaining multiple languages to do their assassin job properly. You really expect someone here has had that unique experience?
StreetsofBeige
Member
Got to say Doom85.
I don't know if you work for Disney but in every Disney company related thread where some people criticize the product you always seem to respond asap and defend it to the bone.
I don't know if you work for Disney but in every Disney company related thread where some people criticize the product you always seem to respond asap and defend it to the bone.
TheUnicornGuy
Gold Member
Alexi even speaks English whilst in a Russian prison in black widow so, like you said, I don't think the mcu is too concerned about language accuracy and more about making it obvious that he's Russian and making it easy to understand what he's saying.
Doom85
Member
Sorry if I find the frequent mistakes posters make here remembering details of not just prior entries but even the film or show they just watched frustrating.
Like, this movie flat out explains why they're initially called Thunderbolts. An AMERICAN soccer team Yelena played for, and that her dad remembered fondly. It's referenced in FOUR different scenes throughout the film. Yet one of you is all, "she has NO REASON to speak to her father in English"?
All you really need is "was a kid in country X, learned language Y without an accent". It's as simple as that. Others have even given examples which you dismiss. Hell, I'm SURROUNDED by 1st gen kids that speak nothing but spanish at home, but guess what? They speak 'american english', not accented english, because what you suggest (hearing an accent at home) is not actually how most kids learn to speak language.
Regardless of 'Red Room' nonsense (where I STRONGLY doubt they teach accented english to their infiltration assassins but whatever) both Yelena and Natasha had a fairly extended period, during childhood, of immersion therapy in AMERICA where they would have learned to speak without an accent (well, an Ohio one or wherever they were). Accents like this are often due to the inability to form proper sounds, much more difficult as an adult, versus as a kid. Not just a dialect like a "bah-ston accent", though even that can be trained. So even assuming Red Guardian and his wife had thick russian accented english (which, in-universe, would be debatable for 'undercover spies') and that's what the girls heard at home, they themselves would speak AMERICAN english because that's what they get in school and all around them, especially as very young kids. Plus we get the comparison of the two girls, both with similar backgrounds during the language/accent formation period, yet they came out sounding very different. You argue that is an immutable aspect of their in-universe backgrounds, I strongly think that was just an actress/director choice with virtually ZERO consideration to what the character would actually sound like. It was important to convey that Yelena was "more russian" than Natasha, so accent it was.
"Hey papa, do you speak fluent russian?"Sorry if I find the frequent mistakes posters make here remembering details of not just prior entries but even the film or show they just watched frustrating.
Like, this movie flat out explains why they're initially called Thunderbolts. An AMERICAN soccer team Yelena played for, and that her dad remembered fondly. It's referenced in FOUR different scenes throughout the film. Yet one of you is all, "she has NO REASON to speak to her father in English"?
"Da!"
"Wow, I speak fluent russian! Do you speak fluent english?"
"Nett, I have thick roosian axxent in english"
"Da, so do I for some reason! So why do we speak in this thick axxent english to each other when we both speak perfect russian?"
"Because no body wants to read subtitles, dats why!"
This is all you need to understand
Doom85
Doom85
Member
Well, they left the U.S. during their childhood so this comparison falls flat.
And let me stop you right there. You can't dismiss a place where they spent the majority of their years. And again, "infiltration" assassins? Why do they need to infiltrate countries? They take out targets covertly, they're not putting on a big show of it.
You can't dismiss their in-universe backgrounds when you're frequently admitting you barely remember the events of the films, assuming you haven't even skipped one or two of the ones relevant to this conversation.
JFC dude, you simply can not wrap your head around how language is ACTUALLY LEARNED. Or how multi-lingual people act. And you seem so embedded in this Red Room stuff, as if they would train all their girls in the most obvious, easily detected accented languages. OF COURSE these girls need to blend in, seem like a local, when infiltrating (please explain how 'infiltrate' and 'covert' are not synonyms in this context???) countries and assassinating people.
You do you, man. This topic is quickly becoming the definition of insanity and Thunderbolts def ain't worth the effort. And by your 'logic', if childhood doesn't count but adulthood does, when why doesn't Bucky have a thick rooshian accent, as his entire adult life was getting thawed out, trained up by the russians to do some mission, and then back into the cooler, for decades!
You do you, man. This topic is quickly becoming the definition of insanity and Thunderbolts def ain't worth the effort. And by your 'logic', if childhood doesn't count but adulthood does, when why doesn't Bucky have a thick rooshian accent, as his entire adult life was getting thawed out, trained up by the russians to do some mission, and then back into the cooler, for decades!
Doom85
Member
Why do they need to "blend in" to such a degree? Unless it's a country that is not open to outside visitors at all (in which case they would need to train girls of specific races/ethnicities of those specific countries for that, and presumably Yelena and Natasha didn't fit the bill in that regard) they shouldn't have any issue entering a country. And even if they possibly leave a witness behind, and? The Black Widow program clearly had a lot of women at their disposal, and they could just utilize different women when needing to target someone in that country from now on.
And why can't they also have learned a fake accent or two? You're just assuming Yelena is unable to speak English without a Russian accent. How many British actors can do a pretty passable "American" accent? Because I've seen quite a few do quite well.
Are you serious with your Bucky comparison? He only participated in over two dozen assassinations in his time as the Winter Soldier, the rest of the time he was "on ice". Why would that be anywhere near enough time to alter his accent?
Again, maybe actually remember continuity, or at least spend the seconds it would take to double check info like that, before you try to lecture me that language and accents are a 100% shared experience in how people develop. Ah yes, if there's anything life has taught me, no one develops differently, learns differently, has different mental states and such that could impact such things, etc. Nope, our brains are CLEARLY all exactly the same.
Jinxed
Member
Haha, I've hot him on the ignore list but not surprised to see this
Doom85
Member
Haha, I've hot him on the ignore list but not surprised to see this
Still thinking about me constantly, stop, I told you I'm not interested.
Also look at that Freudian slip. "hot", eh?
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The cute Peaches avatar throws the cishets off their gameStill thinking about me constantly, stop, I told you I'm not interested.
Also look at that Freudian slip. "hot", eh?