Ravensmash
Member
Happy that we might be moving towards a more positive stance, laughing that the government are having to back down on their hard brexit nonsense.
UK General Election 2017 |OT2| No Government is better than a bad Government
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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Happy that we might be moving towards a more positive stance, laughing that the government are having to back down on their hard brexit nonsense.
Happy that they are working with the EU, happy that the Tories are appearing like toothless failures.
That's only temp happiness though. Real happiness comes from chocolate.
PJV3
Member
Do you mean we should praise them in some way?
This is so meta. People who don't know Ant and Dec won't get this at all.
Graphics Horse
Member
The good news is Ant is Chancellor.
CyclopsRock
Member
See? The Tories are making people happy in 2017. Who'd have thunk it.
I think praise and jeering has little meaning when you jeer no matter the actions, I suppose.
ReplacementPelican
Member
I do love how you ignored previous replies and just went in with this post. There is an obvious reason why the 'morans' guy is funnier, perhaps its the European grasp of irony that's eluding you here?
I understand your point, I just feel you picked an inopportune time to make it.
Kind of.
Its met with a level of frustration though. Way back when, I'm sure most of us were trying to explain to family and friends that - because we were told we wouldn't leave the single market - we would essentially have to back down on a lot of immigration issues (the largest issue for Leave supporters) if we wanted access to the single market (which we were told we'd definitely want) and that this essentially leaves us in a position of still ostensibly being part of and have to abide by the laws of the EU but with no voice or vote within it.
We were told that 'leaving the single market' was part of project fear and then they pulled the rug from under us but people were so invested in 'their side' that a lot of people didn't stop to think about how they'd been lied to. It was a narrative shift and their claims of 'project fear' switched away from something they've now decided to do and against something else.
For us, I think it just boils down to this point a pointless, depressing enterprise.
There is no correct way to shoot yourself in the foot. It's a bit fucking much to expect us to cheer when they don't hit the kneecap.
CyclopsRock
Member
Hmm, I think this is a slightly misleading - or just perhaps wrong - reading of what happened. There were people from all different sides saying all different things re: single market access. There was nothing close to a consensus about what Brexit would mean regarding anything, including single market access. The government's own leaflet that it sent out, for example, was making the economic case for staying in the EU by contrasting it to an alternative of being outside the single market, so clearly they weren't saying we'd stay a full member. David Cameron, George Osborne, Michael Gove and David Davis all made speeches saying that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market who at the time were the Prime Minister, the Chancellor, the Justice Secretary and, ok, a mad nut bag. You may feel like you were mislead, but I don't really think it's fair to say "We were told we were going to stay in the single market." Maybe some people told you that. Some other people told you other things. Who, of those people though, were in a position to actually keep the promises they were making?
It's interesting how the countryside Tory backbenchers that push for a hard Brexit must realise that leaving the EU means a huge amount of cheap labour will be lost, i.e. who will open Luton Airport's Costa Coffee concession at 4am? Therefore, I feel that they would feel comfortable, or see it as natural, for these jobs to go to British people instead. I feel this has a slight classist tinge to it, where they see a fit society, as they, ruling over the young, marching them into the call centres/coffee shops.
In a way, I also feel they want to keep British society as it is and dislike the face of imported labour. Perhaps a little racist? However, one might argue that allowing outside labour to take these jobs is not really protective of ones citizens in the way a state should be from the left.
I read an article a few months ago in the LRB that argued that May, and the old school Tories who have creeped out from the woodwork after being dormant since the early 2000s, are seeking to create a society where only a certain strata are mollycoddled. That being the 50-70 DM readership in short. Other parts of society will see their advantages stagnate and will not be given any real help from the government. It went on to say that Brexit and the chaos that has followed is all because people still want authority, they want to be led, but an authority figure they can recognise - not the mysterious trans-national global elite but a figure they know, they may not like, but keeps them in order. And thus I'm brought back to my first paragraph - class in British society is extremely pervasive. This is it. "Liberation? Hm, okay, but can we have a bit of bondage too?"
This point, about the desire of the upper classes to dictate other people's lives, was made very clearly to me the other day. A good friend of mine, a publicly schooled artist with a trust fund who lives with his parents in West London was staying with me in Germany last week. When I said how I recognised why Brexit had happened but ultimately I find it abhorrent because it means I may have to move back to the sodding UK he replied, "well don't you think what you do is a bit of luxury to just move away and work in another country?". To which I said "no, my flight was £40 and my flat costs 400 euros a month". To which he still insisted I was in exceptional circumstances... To which I then said, "well excuse me, you're saying it's luxurious for a British youth to move to Berlin or Amsterdam for a year or so, but hang on, what about the hundreds of thousands of migrant Poles that come to UK to pick potatoes in Kent!? I think they manage to do it!" ... He then became quite mouthy that he simply didn't know enough about Brexit (he didn't bother voting last year) and so I just let it go and we changed subject.
But yes, I came away thinking, how dare you dictate the lives of others, why do you (Tory) people insist on this damn parochialism about what life can be and what others can do and where they must sit in the UKs class hegemony... So yes it's a bit awkward - in a way Tory's want to look after their own country's citizens and see them working beneath them until they die, whilst the centre left/right would see their citizens compete or lose out against foreign labour and the left would tbh, seek a similar national ideal to those of Tory's except with better healthcare and social benefits.
In a way, I also feel they want to keep British society as it is and dislike the face of imported labour. Perhaps a little racist? However, one might argue that allowing outside labour to take these jobs is not really protective of ones citizens in the way a state should be from the left.
I read an article a few months ago in the LRB that argued that May, and the old school Tories who have creeped out from the woodwork after being dormant since the early 2000s, are seeking to create a society where only a certain strata are mollycoddled. That being the 50-70 DM readership in short. Other parts of society will see their advantages stagnate and will not be given any real help from the government. It went on to say that Brexit and the chaos that has followed is all because people still want authority, they want to be led, but an authority figure they can recognise - not the mysterious trans-national global elite but a figure they know, they may not like, but keeps them in order. And thus I'm brought back to my first paragraph - class in British society is extremely pervasive. This is it. "Liberation? Hm, okay, but can we have a bit of bondage too?"
This point, about the desire of the upper classes to dictate other people's lives, was made very clearly to me the other day. A good friend of mine, a publicly schooled artist with a trust fund who lives with his parents in West London was staying with me in Germany last week. When I said how I recognised why Brexit had happened but ultimately I find it abhorrent because it means I may have to move back to the sodding UK he replied, "well don't you think what you do is a bit of luxury to just move away and work in another country?". To which I said "no, my flight was £40 and my flat costs 400 euros a month". To which he still insisted I was in exceptional circumstances... To which I then said, "well excuse me, you're saying it's luxurious for a British youth to move to Berlin or Amsterdam for a year or so, but hang on, what about the hundreds of thousands of migrant Poles that come to UK to pick potatoes in Kent!? I think they manage to do it!" ... He then became quite mouthy that he simply didn't know enough about Brexit (he didn't bother voting last year) and so I just let it go and we changed subject.
But yes, I came away thinking, how dare you dictate the lives of others, why do you (Tory) people insist on this damn parochialism about what life can be and what others can do and where they must sit in the UKs class hegemony... So yes it's a bit awkward - in a way Tory's want to look after their own country's citizens and see them working beneath them until they die, whilst the centre left/right would see their citizens compete or lose out against foreign labour and the left would tbh, seek a similar national ideal to those of Tory's except with better healthcare and social benefits.
ReplacementPelican
Member
The Tories were, yes but I was talking about the Leave campaign.
Now, as its been claimed that I have either misread or perhaps am even ignorant to the situation, please find the information below:
Daniel Hannan MEP said:
Owen Paterson MP said:
Nigel Farage said:
Matthew Elliot (Vote Leave CE) said:
Arron Banks said:
You have clearly interpreted my post as being aimed at the Tories, when it was not. I was talking about the Leave campaign. Also, it doesn't matter if they were in power or not, the referendum is spoken about like the decision is gospel and now you're attempting to tell me the context of that referendum is pointless because of who was involved.
If the determination of what Brexit means is to be decided by the process of the referendum then yes, people were misled. I get your point but its a sort of 'having your cake and eating it too' moment on your line of argumentation. The Tories largely accepted the referendum and initially interpreted it as something worse than was discussed by the Leave campaign. Yes, they're backing down now but its not worthy of praise because its clear that May et al would have gone for this hard Brexit if they didn't realise it was a politically bad decision. I'm not going to praise leaders who don't do what they legitimately think is best for the country.
As much as I want to think that's true, that's not at all how I read it, and apparently a lot of EU politicians are reading it. It's more that the grace period starts soon , and it will end soon after UK leaves, effectively this not being any offer at all.
Theonik
Member
May cannot enact anything before 2019 and any offer she makes will be dealt with scrutiny and a likely counteroffer from the EU. The final deal will provide more clarity which while I agree is unideal if you are in a situation where you must make life plans. Now re: Grace period, the time when it will start has not been set and I think one would expect would not be in the past. In the first place the treaties will continue to apply to the UK until the 29th of March 2019 at the minimum, so people have that period by default.
A Norway style deal would be a damn good outcome for everyone actually:
We get to be in the EEA and keep most of the benefits of EU member, whilst completely defanging the Eurosceptics.
The EU continues to get money from us and have open trade with us, without having to pit up with the UK throwing a shit fit every half an hour.
We get to be in the EEA and keep most of the benefits of EU member, whilst completely defanging the Eurosceptics.
The EU continues to get money from us and have open trade with us, without having to pit up with the UK throwing a shit fit every half an hour.
CyclopsRock
Member
But of course it matters if they were in power. Farage had been banging the drum for decades, he's been the public face of the campaign for years, he's on Question Time more often than Dimbleby but as long as he's further away from being in government than you or me, what he plans to happen is about as useful as a predictive tool as throwing leaves into the wind to see if it'll rain next week. He might want a Norway system, but what he wants isn't worth any more than what I, CyclopsRock want. He's not in a position to deliver it. The same with Aaron Banks. In fact, even more the case with Aaron Banks.
I also don't think it's the case that the referendum was a determination of what Brexit looked like. How could it be? It was a binary choice between in and out. In was a known quantity, out wasn't (as we've seen!). That was one of the criticisms of it - that "Leaving the EU" means different things to different people. I've stated before that I think, politically, the result could only be interpreted as requiring a Hard Brexit, but it's undoubtedly the case that there were a lot of different people with a lot of different views of what they wanted to happen in the event of a Leave vote.
MrMysterio
Member
Regarding the status of EU citizens there are also a couple of other things to keep in mind.
The CSI (Comprehensive Sickness Insurance) Trap:
If you're an EU citizen in the UK, who is self sufficient (e.g. a partner of a UK citizen, who does not work) and you do not have CSI, then your time in the UK does not count towards the 5 years.
This is also true for students. In addition to that, Universities have had no policy informing students about the need for CSI.
A question here would be, do the years in employment count towards 5 years of residence, if at any time you have been the victim of the CSI trap?
EU courts don't cover you:
Even if you get "settled" status in a post-Brexit UK, your rights will not be backed by EU courts, but by whatever Theresa May's government decides to take over from EU legislation through the "Repeal Bill".
This means that there's no clarity at all how your continued stay is governed after Brexit.
Can you leave the UK for a certain amount of time before they make you illegal?
How much do you have to earn in order to stay legal?
How will new immigration bills effect your status?
So yeah, EU citizens in the UK should be aware that the "offer" by Theresa May has not given them any kind of assurance about their status in the UK, especially not in a post-Brexit reality.
If they want to make you illegal, they can.
ferrasvansen
Member
Yeah had a feeling the companies who invested in UK while in the EU would do this, may well end up costing taxpayers billions, cannot blame them really after all it's not their fault it happened.
I posted this in the Brexit thread, but it is probably relevant here too so will link again.
Today Gisela Stuart has said herself that the referendum was wrong, and "I've never gone through a voting process where the losers demand of the winners that they explain themselves... This is what happened with the referendum, because you had a binary question."
So yeah, even a prominent name behind the leave campaign thinks they misled people
Earthpainting
Member
Mt Heart Attack
Member
I really don't get the animosity and bad faith this government is showing towards people like me that came here lawfully and are making a contribution to this country. Disgusting and sickening.
Linkstrikesback
Member
Now to be fair, I'd be entirely unsuprised if they'd deport everyone earning less than 100k if they could get away with, for the crime of being poor. The fact that these dickheads keep getting votes is beyond me...
MrMysterio
Member
I agree completely. They are basically making legal citizens illegal, which is normally something you'd see in a dictatorship.
Also, it's burning bridges with the people they think they can attract to their new Empire as "the brightest and best".
I've been in the UK for over 10 years now, but due to the CSI policy, I might not be granted "settled status" under the current "offer".
I'm now at the point where, even if I get all the rights I currently have, I will be leaving the UK.
Who's to say a DUP-Tory government won't decide on a whim of popular xenophobia that I should be made illegal?
Also, it's burning bridges with the people they think they can attract to their new Empire as "the brightest and best".
I've been in the UK for over 10 years now, but due to the CSI policy, I might not be granted "settled status" under the current "offer".
I'm now at the point where, even if I get all the rights I currently have, I will be leaving the UK.
Who's to say a DUP-Tory government won't decide on a whim of popular xenophobia that I should be made illegal?
Theonik
Member
That's precisely what sovereignty means yeah. Non-EU migrants had to deal with that threat until they became naturalised. Which is why I can't stress enough the need for one to keep all those in mind when charting their path forward.
E:
To quote Tony Benn:
"The way the government treats refugees is very instructive. It's the way they would treat the rest of us if they had a half the chance."
In reality that applies not just to refugees but to non-voting immigrants as well.
It's not just you (well, us 😞
, there is a fair bit of animosity and bad faith towards English working class/disabled/young people too, it's not just the foreignersMrMysterio
Member
No.
Non-EU migrants are a separate issue (as are the abysmal policies of the UK government regarding deportation etc etc).
You can't detract one issue by bringing up a different, unrelated one.
Also:
EU citizens came to the UK with full rights under EU legislation. These rights are now under threat of being taken away.
If your sovereignty means deporting people who have contributed to this country in one way or another, but fall through made-up loopholes (CSI being one example), then you simply just stand for a disgusting government that does not care for the people it pretends to represent.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Is it wrong that I'm excited to see how people who claimed we could finally forge deals with India and the like after Brexit will respond to this...
It still infuriates me that people said this given that India's number one demand would be more visas for students, and with Brexit being what it is...
autumnleaf
Member
We don't need other countries we don't need immigrants, we don't need anything. Take back control!
Theonik
Member
It doesn't matter how one came to the UK or what rights they thought they had. It is a fundamental principle of the legislative that a parliament is free to change the policies of one that came prior. Once treaties lapse then this becomes a matter of UK legislation.
They are not separate matters, by removing the treaties and external jurisdiction, this becomes strictly a matter of UK immigration policy. New legislation will be written to ease transition but that is inevitable. The UK is quite unique as well in its lack of a written constitution that makes parliament pretty omnipotent in many cases though some laws might be dealt to break previous principles under common law. Notably the high court ruling over benefit caps being ruled discriminatory.
I am not agreeing with UK policy and in fact think the way this country handles immigration is appalling all around. If the government could get away with it, one could shudder to think how they would treat the general populace. Their treatment of refugees and immigrants is a good example. What this all exposes if anything is how insufficient the EU treaties were in dealing with this kind of matter in the first place. Theresa May's exploitation of weaknesses in the EU treaties namely in the case of CSI as you mentioned, is more a testament that she is a genuinely disgusting human being but everyone with any sense of decency and a functioning moral compass could have told you thus.
jimbobsmells
Member
Haha my wife works in corporate / international arbitration. Guess she's going to be busy.
Ah yes, the Juche approach which has been so successful elsewhere
Going well then...
I'm with Tusk on this, dreaming of it not happening.
I do love how people complaining about immigration probably don't care for the non white ones more so but after Brexit you might need so many more from outside the EU to fill the gaps and any big trade deals with say India etc. might mean more open immigration from those places as UK doesn't have a leg to stand on in trade deals. It will be never ending complaining, next on the agenda will probably be population control and why do my strawberries cost 5 quid in the shop now and 50 quid at Wimbledon.
I'm with Tusk on this, dreaming of it not happening.
I do love how people complaining about immigration probably don't care for the non white ones more so but after Brexit you might need so many more from outside the EU to fill the gaps and any big trade deals with say India etc. might mean more open immigration from those places as UK doesn't have a leg to stand on in trade deals. It will be never ending complaining, next on the agenda will probably be population control and why do my strawberries cost 5 quid in the shop now and 50 quid at Wimbledon.
Miles Quaritch
Member
On the student point, I've encountered a few Indian students over the past couple of years and to my surprise, only one (out of seven) showed any interest in staying in the UK post graduation. I imagine that's since changed with Brexit, she was thinking about doing research here...
Granted it's a small sample, but there wasn't much appetite for UK life or its people. Most were looking to the EU or the US for jobs and were studying here because they had scholarships or wanted to attend a prestigious university like Oxford (which I took to mean they couldn't get into Harvard or MIT so Oxford was their backup plan, which is fair enough. A place at Oxford is a huge career boost)
The Evening Standard's calling for the UK Government to unilaterally allow EU citizens to stay. There's also this rather interesting line in the article:
Gideon's loving this, I'm sure.
Gideon's loving this, I'm sure.
Theonik
Member
Like I said. May is the actual problem. She's been trying to fight the rights of EU migrants since as early as 2011 and her CSI nonsense since then has been under active litigation for years now.
India were very straight forward in their demands when Theresa visited last year. More visas, more visas, more visas.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/theresa-ma...a-modi-rejects-calls-relax-visa-rules-1590238
God, she is horrible.
MrMysterio
Member
These are separate issues, though, as the UK is still part of the EU, and therefore has different policies depending on the nationality of the immigrant.
The UK currently has no legislation regarding immigration post-Brexit. Post-Brexit Britain does not yet exist, apart from vague bill promises that lack work-able detail.
The case of EU citizens in the UK is notable due to the fact that they have come to the UK with a full set of rights, which is now under discussion of how much of it is being stripped away.
Also, whatever the UK think their "immigration problem" is, it's not rooted in "insufficient EU treaties".
I'm still rather interested to see what the letter from Greg Clarke to Nissan contains.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39235649
ReplacementPelican
Member
What I'm trying to figure out here is how you're disagreeing with the idea that people had been misled when its rather plainly obvious. Whether or not individual Tories misled the British public they have been given ample opportunity to have either not held the referendum or not accepted the result.
Also, some Tories supported the Leave campaign and the people who 'weren't in power' as you plainly put it were legitimized by actual, real politicians who do have power. They legitimized and supported a campaign built on fibbing about the reality of the situation(s).
Many of those involved outright dismissed the idea of leaving the single market. Few spoke about leaving the single market before it was announced that this was the plan. The 'Norway' idea as trotted out, lauded over and praised as the ideal of what we wanted to reach prior to the referendum and now that's apparently not what we want despite people's head's being filled with this option by the Leave campaign.
The determination is based on the way the referendum was won and the way the arguments were presented by the Leave campaign and politicians within.
Thank you for this.
Little Old Man
Member
I think I'm going to start writing to my MP on a regular basis from now on. Particularly on pushing for unilateral right to stay for EU nationals, and single market access, and other key issues as they come about. I don't want our economy and international standing ripped apart even further thanks to the loony arm of the Tory party and the idiotic public.
lol my exact thinking too.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
So former chancellor George Osbourn has revealed that Theresa May blocked Camerons proposal to secure right to remain for current EU residents last June.
Another U turn for Maybot.
From The Independent:
Daily Mail will probably just print a front page about Jeremy Corbyns socks though.
Theresa May seems like one of the really horrible, stuck in the "good old days, conservatives.
Another U turn for Maybot.
From The Independent:
Daily Mail will probably just print a front page about Jeremy Corbyns socks though.
Theresa May seems like one of the really horrible, stuck in the "good old days, conservatives.
SlipperyFishes
Banned
She clearly despises migrants from Europe and was never on the Remain Train.
Played the game right up until she could steal the Premiership.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
She just seems like a prick in general.
She's been making life harder for non EU migration since she was home sec too.
Edit: Added rest of convo for context
I imagine it's what Trump did. Once they've pocketed the money tax breaks, they'll up sticks when a new line of cars is ready to be made.
That's the odd thing, she could have implemented better rules for EU migrants that other countries have done while she was Home Secretary for 6 years but didn't bother. Was it a long game to make people hate immigration and force Brexit?
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