UK General Election 2017 |OT2| No Government is better than a bad Government

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sammex said:
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Leading Brexit campaigner says 'vacuous' referendum should never have been called

Haven't even a clue what she's on about here. Reads like the ramblings of a mad woman.
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"none of this is my fault. it's all those incompetent people there."
 
I didn't know Gisela Stuart was German born. That makes her even more hilariously pathetic. What a loser "I’ve never gone through a voting process where the losers demand of the winners that they explain themselves." .

It is completely insane that these leave fuckers had no plan for what they wanted. They were opportunistic cunts who wanted to upend decades of legal, political and trade legislations just so they could get in the news. Also because Putin was paying them. Fuck them.
 
That's almost literally what the Opposition in the Westminster system is for, to hold the winner to account and get them to explain themselves. I feel dumber for having had to come to that observation
 
Was talking to someone about May's offer to EU citizens. He was assuming that "as long as they've been here for 5 years" they "get to stay" was simply someone just sitting at home doing nothing and running the clock until they're golden.

I had to explain to him that "they get to stay" doesn't mean a relaxing of the qualifiers needed to get "settled status". It simply means an assurance that those who followed the rules to acquire "settled status" won't be deported back to their EU countries after Brexit even those who haven't completed 5 years, but are on the way to doing so.

People can still get denied "settled status" and if so it would be quite likely that would leave them past a cut-off point and be asked to leave or even deported. Thinking about it you could find loopholes where proving residency doesn't require a job or education, you could just show school letters throughout the yeas for your child plus bills/council taxes, although those are few and far between and not a big issue since the rules "allow that".
 
Just went to see the Avalanches play in Manchester and Tim Farron was there!

I'm not sure whether to like him slightly more for his taste in music, or myself less now :P

(Sorry for the slight derail, but thought Huw might at least be interested in that)

Royal_Phalanx said:
Must be nice to be a German born eurosceptic insulated from all consequences of your decision. She can use her German passport anytime.
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It was so disappointing that she didn't stand for her seat again in the most recent election, it would have been glorious to watch her get Portillo'd.
 
I think the chance of people realising how bad this situation is gonna grow day by day.

When you have facts like:

Shortage of fruit/veg pickers in may 2016 - 153
Shortage may 2017 - 1,500

The narrative is gonna start changing, especially when people think about how much worse it will get when we actually leave.

Will it be enough to stop brexit, chances are always slim but I'm not 100% convinced it won't just yet.
 
TimmmV said:
Just went to see the Avalanches play in Manchester and Tim Farron was there!

I'm not sure whether to like him slightly more for his taste in music, or myself less now :P

(Sorry for the slight derail, but thought Huw might at least be interested in that)
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goddamn man dont do this to me

i missed the avalanches but tim fucking farron made it there
 
CadetMahoney said:
Was talking to someone about May's offer to EU citizens. He was assuming that "as long as they've been here for 5 years" they "get to stay" was simply someone just sitting at home doing nothing and running the clock until they're golden.

I had to explain to him that "they get to stay" doesn't mean a relaxing of the qualifiers needed to get "settled status". It simply means an assurance that those who followed the rules to acquire "settled status" won't be deported back to their EU countries after Brexit even those who haven't completed 5 years, but are on the way to doing so.

People can still get denied "settled status" and if so it would be quite likely that would leave them past a cut-off point and be asked to leave or even deported. Thinking about it you could find loopholes where proving residency doesn't require a job or education, you could just show school letters throughout the yeas for your child plus bills/council taxes, although those are few and far between and not a big issue since the rules "allow that".
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I'm glad the EU isn't taking this shit. They want clear rules. They want guaranteed residency for all EU citizens, with no exceptions. The UK has a horrible residence procedure, you have to fill in 85 pages for something you have a right to (residence certificate), I wouldn't trust them either with their vague statements.
 
Dirtyshubb said:
I am really loving the 'oh Jeremy Corbyn' chants and how much they have been growing and growing.

Anyone see:
Glastonbury - https://twitter.com/skwawkbox/status/878409873645613056

Unison conference hall - https://twitter.com/Corbynator2/status/878201495807815680
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I work a student union bar and every night in election week I'd hear chants come from the nightclub downstairs. There were more people watching the results in the bar than I've seen there for any football match, and that's saying something.

The young have been mobilised, called it before the 8th and knew it wasn't only a bubble I was in, just noticed so much more engagement and buzz around campus and even amongst my non-student friends of similar age to me. Let us hope we keep it up.
 
Wolvers said:
I work a student union bar and every night in election week I'd hear chants come from the nightclub downstairs. There were more people watching the results in the bar than I've seen there for any football match, and that's saying something.

The young have been mobilised, called it before the 8th and knew it wasn't only a bubble I was in, just noticed so much more engagement and buzz around campus and even amongst my non-student friends of similar age to me. Let us hope we keep it up.
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Encouraged by this to bring up anecdotes, so what the hell. I scarcely use Facebook, but in the times I did go on during the campaign season, almost everyone in my age range was posting anti-tory, pro-labour (often pro-Corbyn in particular) stuff, and I'm currently in my third year at Uni. There's very much a sense that Conservatives have personally screwed us over and the best way of fighting back is a Labour vote - which given the result has found some validation.
 
Dirtyshubb said:
I think the chance of people realising how bad this situation is gonna grow day by day.

When you have facts like:

Shortage of fruit/veg pickers in may 2016 - 153
Shortage may 2017 - 1,500

The narrative is gonna start changing, especially when people think about how much worse it will get when we actually leave.

Will it be enough to stop brexit, chances are always slim but I'm not 100% convinced it won't just yet.
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Wait till the banks leave, and the law firms and accountancy firms have to lay off lots of people, and the tax revenue hit the treasury takes, and the fall in house prices with the departure of talent and jobs, and the cutting of national services to account for the tax hike.

Thats just financial services, add agriculture, education, research, induatry, exports, and the rest which depend on subsidy, support or trade.

Add the Brexit bill.

Its a rapid downward spiral
 
Interesting article by Paul Johnson, director of the IFS, in the times today - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/ending-austerity-could-punish-all-of-us-9kmtc5c33

This (labour) programme has, wrongly, been characterised as being principally about a rejection of austerity. It was much more than that. Rather than overturning the fiscal policy implemented by the coalition and Conservative governments since 2010, it would have represented a step change in the size, role and scope of the state relative to anything we have seen in the past 30 years.

That is a crucial distinction. A rejection of austerity would mean more borrowing and more spending in the short run. It need not mean a bigger state in the long run. The complete abolition of student fees, the nationalisation of companies operating in rail, energy and water, the introduction of sector-wide collective bargaining have nothing to do with ending austerity. They have everything to do with creating a bigger state with greater powers to direct economic activity.
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The trouble is that political expediency can take you down dangerous routes when it comes to raising taxes. Much was made of Labour’s desire to increase taxes on the rich. The fact that the vast majority of its proposed tax rises would actually come from companies — and by no means only through reversing cuts in corporation tax — came in for rather less scrutiny. What these ways of raising tax have in common is that they appear to leave most voters unaffected. That is a false impression. In the end taxes on companies have to be paid by people through higher prices, lower wages or less valuable investments, including those held in the pensions of private sector workers. That’s a simple statement of logic. Big and poorly designed increases can also hit investment, and hence have big negative consequences for wages in the longer term.

What really worries me, though, is not the detailed arguments over this tax policy versus that, it’s the sense that we seem increasingly to inhabit a world in which we really think we can, in Boris Johnson’s words, have our cake and eat it. It is delusional to believe that we can have a permanent increase in public spending without having to pay for it. If only policymaking were so easy. I’m afraid that here as in all contentious areas of politics there are trade-offs. We need to grow up and recognise them or we will find that the cake we hoped to enjoy just got a whole lot smaller.
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The article is worth a read.
 
twofoldd said:
Interesting article by Paul Johnson, director of the IFS, in the times today - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/ending-austerity-could-punish-all-of-us-9kmtc5c33

The article is worth a read.
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When he says that a raise in taxes on comapnies will lead to a fall in wages, I presume he is talking about jobs where those wages legally can fall and not minimum or close to minimum wage jobs. Probably, many of these jobs pay very well. So they can stand to earn a little less if the reward is a state that support people who are living on the line even while working full time.
 
gun_haver said:
When he says that a raise in taxes on comapnies will lead to a fall in wages, I presume he is talking about jobs where those wages legally can fall and not minimum or close to minimum wage jobs. Probably, many of these jobs pay very well. So they can stand to earn a little less if the reward is a state that support people who are living on the line even while working full time.
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Ssshhhh don't talk sense here, we are meant to ignore the raise in minimum wage and the greater spending power given to the vast majority of people which will help stimulate the economy.

Don't you know anything?
 
gun_haver said:
When he says that a raise in taxes on comapnies will lead to a fall in wages, I presume he is talking about jobs where those wages legally can fall and not minimum or close to minimum wage jobs. Probably, many of these jobs pay very well. So they can stand to earn a little less if the reward is a state that support people who are living on the line even while working full time.
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It can also lead to an increase in prices which will affect those with the least more than any other.
 
jem0208 said:
It can also lead to an increase in prices which will affect those with the least more than any other.
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Inflation is the main problem with post-war social democracy in the UK, curbing it while delivering better public services is one of Blair's best achievements.

The EU/common market was also a big part in curing the decades long inflation crises.
 
What also interests me about that is that when governments effectively provide a windfall ran on big companies by fining them for financial irregularities, it is the customers who pay for it.

Of course that is different isn't it?
 
Dirtyshubb said:
https://twitter.com/emcmillanscott/status/878544374078083072
"Our choice is hard Brexit - or turning back" & we'll turn back.
Matthew Parris in @thetimes
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I said something very similar earlier in the thread.

Everything revolves around Freedom of Movement. If we want to stop it, we have to have a hard Brexit. But if we compromise then it inevitably leads to remaining. Because we lose a decent amount and gain nothing by doing an EEA/soft Brexit where we have no control over freedom of movement.
 
War Peaceman said:
I said something very similar earlier in the thread.

Everything revolves around Freedom of Movement. If we want to stop it, we have to have a hard Brexit. But if we compromise then it inevitably leads to remaining. Because we lose a decent amount and gain nothing by doing an EEA/soft Brexit where we have no control over freedom of movement.
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What needs to happen is have the Tories be forced to be transparent with the options available. Once we reach this stage there has to be a massive focus from everyone that the option is leave completely and lose out horrifically or stay because there is no in-between available.

I think that would be the nail in the coffin but it will take a lot of focus on updates.
 
Only way to reverse Brexit is to get the shitrags like the Mail and Sun onboard or you'll just get outrage and support for UKIP whipped up again.

Or if the EU goes through some sort of subtle reform in the next couple of years that can be sold to people it's different now from the referendum vote.
 
autumnleaf said:
Only way to reverse Brexit is to get the shitrags like the Mail and Sun onboard or you'll just get outrage and support for UKIP whipped up again.

Or if the EU goes through some sort of subtle reform in the next couple of years that can be sold to people it's different now from the referendum vote.
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The shit rags won't accept being in the EU unless the UK is in charge of it.
 
Xando said:
Lots of talk about this recently but i don't see it happening. Both Labour and the Tories are still full on Brexit.
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Yeah, more and more. It's come down to hard brexit or stay because in between is similar just worse than what we have now sis completely pointless. Are we insane or will common sense prevail?

I don't trust the Tories or Labour to go down the common sense route. Labour are either bluffing until the wind blows a different direction or they really like the idea of shaping something on their own without interference. The Tories are crazy right now and it would need some amazing leader to pop up with strong support for do you know what, Brexit is stupid, let's not.

The wind has changed, no doubt about that, it's whether politicians start to stick their neck out and raise the sail or a bunch of stubborn arseholes drive us off a cliff.
 
Parliament hit by Cyber Attack. MPs can't remotely access emails.

A House of Commons spokesperson said: “The Houses of Parliament have discovered unauthorised attempts to access parliamentary user accounts.
 
Wes said:
Parliament hit by Cyber Attack. MPs can't remotely access emails.

A House of Commons spokesperson said: “The Houses of Parliament have discovered unauthorised attempts to access parliamentary user accounts.
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Probably Russians trying to dig up dirt on Labour to keep the Tories in power.

Now where's my tinfoil hat?
 
Jeremy Corbyn inspires me... And nobody in politics has done that for me in the past 26 years, I can happily admit that I am in awe of him.
 
High sparrow stuff from Corbyn.

Poem quote:
Rise like Lions after slumber. In unvanquishable number, Shake your chains to earth like dew. Which in sleep had fallen on you- Ye are many - they are few.".
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