UK General Election 2017 |OT2| No Government is better than a bad Government

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CyclopsRock said:
Why are they abstaining? Labour party policy is pretty clear.
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Labour's ideal policy is remaining within the single market but losing freedom of movement. This is obviously incredibly unlikely, so their official second preference is outside both, rather than inside both. This amendment doesn't directly conflict with Labour policy, per se, since it only says there should be proposals to stay inside the single market, which Labour would accept if there was losing freedom of movement alongside. However, again, realistically that's unlikely to be the case and Labour official policy is not to get tied to anything pro-FoM, so hence abstain.

Lots of Labour MPs are unhappy about this.
 
Crab said:
The Queen's Speech sets out everything the executive intends to introduce. If amended, the executive would have to introduce something it doesn't support, which makes it unfit to be the executive. It evolved from tradition (see also: our entire constitution) but it holds such an important role that it has been formally adopted by many other constitutions in the form of the investiture vote.
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Theonik said:
Same with bills that are commonly associated with no-confidence motions they are needed for the government to function. A defeat on the budget or an amendment is the house telling the government that they disagree with their governing because they are linked to their function. A government that can't spend cannot operate. But on the flipside, a lot of this is convention. To see a true level of constitutional fuckery this can be twisted to one simply needs to look at the US and their borrowing cap. There congress sets the level of spending/funds and level of borrowing allowed by the president that he then spends/borrows. In the UK if Parliament asks the president to spend more than they raise that's implicitly borrowing. In the US congress can simply shut down government if they don't fix that!
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Hmm ok, thank you both.

Hazzuh said:
Labour MPs will be whipped to abstain on Chuka Umunna's amendment on single market membership. Big rebellion against Jeremy Corbyn coming.
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...I don't even know where to start on this one. I wish these fuckers would stop playing nine dimensional chess (referring to both the amendment votes and whatever is happening here).
 
"Ok so we have tried twice to get this guy out and he has won both times and ran the most successful campaign swing since 1945, what should we do?

I know, lets keep trying"

People need to get in line, stop trying to force your own agenda and follow the damn script.
 
People need to realise that if Corbyn turns into the anti-Brexit man his MPs want him to be, the Tories would likely have a good sized majority right now. Remember Labour managed to eat up UKIP seats in the election.

Labour sliding into anti-brexit territory or anything that can and will be construed as such will undo every bit of momentum Labour has right now.

Like it or not, Corbyn can't be seen to be soft on Brexit or the mail/Tories will just successfully beat down every social issue that needs discussing with "at least our party respects democracy etc etc etc.


Brexit is bullshit, but a super Tory Brexit is even more so.
 
Dirtyshubb said:
"Ok so we have tried twice to get this guy out and he has won both times and ran the most successful campaign swing since 1945, what should we do?

I know, lets keep trying"

People need to get in line, stop trying to force your own agenda and follow the damn script.
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So, rubber stamp his policies no matter how bad they are? That's the exact same shit people have been complaining about the Tories for. The party leader is not a dictator.

And did it ever occur to you that maybe the rebellion (if it happens) is about not wanting to fuck the country up by crashing out of the single market and not something as small and trite as a vendetta against the Labour party leadership?

GrizzleBoy said:
People need to realise that if Corbyn turns into the anti-Brexit man his MPs want him to be, the Tories would likely have a good sized majority right now.

Labour sliding into anti-brexit territory or anything that can and will be construed as such will undo every bit of momentum Labour has right now.

Like it or not, Corbyn can't be seen to be soft on Brexit or the mail/Tories will just successfully beat down every social issue that needs discussing with "at least our party respects democracy etc etc etc.
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Guess all that analysis about the election forcing the Tories to row back from a hard Brexit was idle talk? Because God forbid the Daily Mail think poorly of Labour for putting country before party.
 
Crab said:
Labour's ideal policy is remaining within the single market but losing freedom of movement. This is obviously incredibly unlikely, so their official second preference is outside both, rather than inside both. This amendment doesn't directly conflict with Labour policy, per se, since it only says there should be proposals to stay inside the single market, which Labour would accept if there was losing freedom of movement alongside. However, again, realistically that's unlikely to be the case and Labour official policy is not to get tied to anything pro-FoM, so hence abstain.

Lots of Labour MPs are unhappy about this.
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Is it, though? Cause their 2017 manifesto stated that they'd seek to "have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market" which isn't quite the same thing as remaining a member of it.
 
GrizzleBoy said:
People need to realise that if Corbyn turns into the anti-Brexit man his MPs want him to be, the Tories would likely have a good sized majority right now. Remember Labour managed to eat up UKIP seats in the election.

Labour sliding into anti-brexit territory or anything that can and will be construed as such will undo every bit of momentum Labour has right now.

Like it or not, Corbyn can't be seen to be soft on Brexit or the mail/Tories will just successfully beat down every social issue that needs discussing with "at least our party respects democracy etc etc etc.


Brexit is bullshit, but a super Tory Brexit is even more so.
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Hopefully his MPs realise this
 
Jackpot said:
So, rubber stamp his policies no matter how bad they are? That's the exact same shit people have been complaining about the Tories for. The party leader is not a dictator.

And did it ever occur to you that maybe the rebellion (if it happens) is about not wanting to fuck the country up by crashing out of the single market and not something as small and trite as a vendetta against the Labour party leadership?
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How does this work toward that goal?

I would hope there is a middle ground between rubber stamp and rebellion anyway.

Crab said:
.
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This Bercow sounds like an alright chap.
 
Crab said:
Lots of Labour MPs are unhappy about this.
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This is largely why I like the status quo of Labour win-losing and Tories lose-winning and I hope Corbyn doesn't get into power pre-Brexit.

I want the Tories to have to hold this bag of shit of their own creation all the way to the end. If Labour were to handle the negotiations, a lot of their Remain MPs would have to (very publicly) reconcile with fact they represent Leave constituencies. I feel that in-fighting could undo a lot of Labour's recent gains.
 
CyclopsRock said:
Is it, though? Cause their 2017 manifesto stated that they'd seek to "have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market" which isn't quite the same thing as remaining a member of it.
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It could be. If you remain a member of the single market, you have retained the benefits of it!

This is sort of the point though. Labour's policy is "as much as we can get away with and not need FoM", which is... incredibly vague, since it depends very heavily on how negotiations go.
 
Jackpot said:
So, rubber stamp his policies no matter how bad they are? That's the exact same shit people have been complaining about the Tories for. The party leader is not a dictator.

And did it ever occur to you that maybe the rebellion (if it happens) is about not wanting to fuck the country up by crashing out of the single market and not something as small and trite as a vendetta against the Labour party leadership?
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While it seemed like that I don’t think they should be rubber stamping everything but this is probably the most vital time for Labour in nearly a decade. They are on the rise and have the Tories (While still in power) on the ropes and they need to continue the united attack to keep them looking strong.

I voted remain and would ideally like them to cancel Brexit but the chances of that happening are extremely slim (although growing). I just kind of see it like ‘Who would I trust more with Brexit, Labour or the Tories?’ And the answer is always Labour. I do agree that they need to get their Brexit messaging right though because that seems to be the thing they are struggling a little on at the moment.

I admittedly was being hyperbolic with my comment but its just from realising how fragile things are right now that it feels frustrating to see infighting when their efforts need to be on the Tories.
 
So Philip Hammond just said that women from Northern Ireland will have to come into England to have abortions? That's unacceptable really... It's what already bloody happens because of how backwards their law is.
 
Crab said:
Not true, per se. This was a good discussion of it:

https://stephentweedale.wordpress.c...fidence-convention-in-fixed-term-parliaments/

It's very unclear precisely what happens if an amendment is successful at this stage; there's no precedent and the FTPA simply doesn't have the necessary clarity.
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Theonik said:
I was reading the parliamentary report and did a skimming of the bill itself but it does not appear to say that. Any bill that can be considered a vote of no confidence should still count as such. One needs to wonder how the bill will work in practice though. Moreover a motion of no confidence would still give the government 14 days to try and pass a motion of confidence before a new GE needs to be called which I forgot to mention so this farce can go even further with the amendment passing and DUP/Tories reconfirming the same government.
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I think there's a difference between the legalities of it, and the political realities. Prof Colin Talbot quite assuredly states "But under FTPA this is a very specific no confidence motion, the wording of which is laid down in the Act. Crucially anything else does not count, at least legally."

Of course, politically the Government might view other votes as confidence matters, and choose to resign after losing them, but that's a slightly different thing. The conventions around those have changed drastically over the centuries: Lord North resigned after losing a vote over prosecuting the war against some minor colonial rebellion, while MacDonald resigned after losing a vote relating to a court case. It's almost certain that May would face incredible political pressure if she couldn't get the Queen's Speech through, but that's still just a convention. Hell, back in 2009 the Scottish Parliament rejected the SNP's budget, but they didn't resign then.

I do agree that we'd be in pretty unclear territory if the Queen's Speech was rejected. Exciting times though!
 
I mean, I think we all agree on that (depending on the political realities of the situation). But, if anything, that lends credence to the idea this is make or break - since it has been known for being so in the past, and can you imagine anything more toxic for the Conservatives than Labour running on 'they illegitimately ran from an election because they were too scared to be held accountable?' - especially after the apparent shenanigans from already having had to go to the DUP. I think it would be politically untenable for May to continue to govern in such a situation.
 
GrizzleBoy said:
People need to realise that if Corbyn turns into the anti-Brexit man his MPs want him to be, the Tories would likely have a good sized majority right now. Remember Labour managed to eat up UKIP seats in the election.

Labour sliding into anti-brexit territory or anything that can and will be construed as such will undo every bit of momentum Labour has right now.

Like it or not, Corbyn can't be seen to be soft on Brexit or the mail/Tories will just successfully beat down every social issue that needs discussing with "at least our party respects democracy etc etc etc.


Brexit is bullshit, but a super Tory Brexit is even more so.
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Jackpot said:
Guess all that analysis about the election forcing the Tories to row back from a hard Brexit was idle talk? Because God forbid the Daily Mail think poorly of Labour for putting country before party.
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So you think handing over every UKIP held constituency and Labour constituencies who voted to leave to the Tories and giving them the majority they wanted, is how we put the country first?

There's no point having the moral high ground if you have zero influence. He could do exactly what you want right now, but if another election happened any time soon, Labour would be fucked and they'd have no influence in parliament. We'd have years of media bashing Corbyn and leadership battles while the Tories get away with murder, unable to be held accountable to a single thing.

The undeniable FACT Is that Corbyn acknowledging the Labour constituencies that wanted to leave and the former Labour constituencies who had switched to UKIP, help him to lessen the Tories influence by removing their mandate and majority.

It hurts, but being "in the right" might feel good, but the outcome in the end would be even worse than what you're upset about right now.
 
H1PSTER said:
So Philip Hammond just said that women from Northern Ireland will have to come into England to have abortions? That's unacceptable really... It's what already bloody happens because of how backwards their law is.
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Well, it's good news compared to the current situation. I presume they're calling the DUP's bluff that they won't abstain because of it, and probably correctly guessing, meaning this will all go through fine.

Theonik said:
He just wants to say 'Or-daaah' a lot.
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Do you think he shouts that in bed
 
JonathanEx said:
Well, it's good news compared to the current situation. I presume they're calling the DUP's bluff that they won't abstain because of it, and probably correctly guessing, meaning this will all go through fine.
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You're probably right. I suspect they only really care about what happens in NI itself, and wouldn't bring down the govt and their 1 billion and risk their nightmare of Corbyn PM over this, especially when even if the govt implemented it it would only really be a continuation of current circumstances, anyway.
 
Crab said:
It could be. If you remain a member of the single market, you have retained the benefits of it!

This is sort of the point though. Labour's policy is "as much as we can get away with and not need FoM", which is... incredibly vague, since it depends very heavily on how negotiations go.
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There's incredibly vague and then there's being all things to all persons, a charge I fear Labour is entirely guilty of.
 
H1PSTER said:
So Philip Hammond just said that women from Northern Ireland will have to come into England to have abortions? That's unacceptable really... It's what already bloody happens because of how backwards their law is.
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Hope you're planning on paying for flights, Phil.
 
Huw_Dawson said:
There's incredibly vague and then there's being all things to all persons, a charge I fear Labour is entirely guilty of.
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Considering the nature of the negotiations it makes sense to have the largest amount of flexibility to get the best outcome.
The only thing Labour has committed to is leaving the EU, which they interpret will have the consequence of leaving the single market, and so ends freedom of movement, but they haven't ruled out a deal that is equivalent to the current one.
 
Hazzuh said:
Labour MPs will be whipped to abstain on Chuka Umunna's amendment on single market membership. Big rebellion against Jeremy Corbyn coming.
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This shouldn't surprise anybody.
It's no secret Corbyn is as hell bent on leaving the EU as Nigel Farage.


H1PSTER said:
So Philip Hammond just said that women from Northern Ireland will have to come into England to have abortions? That's unacceptable really... It's what already bloody happens because of how backwards their law is.
Click to expand...
That's about as much as Westminster can do. They can't suddenly legalise abortion clinics in Northern Ireland.
 
Theonik said:
Considering the nature of the negotiations it makes sense to have the largest amount of flexibility to get the best outcome.
The only thing Labour has committed to is leaving the EU, which they interpret will have the consequence of leaving the single market, and so ends freedom of movement, but they haven't ruled out a deal that is equivalent to the current one.
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And thus they promise all things to all people.
 
The government's kind of neutered this one. By conceding the issue, if Creasy pushes ahead it's clear she's doing so for solely political reasons. I think that one is dealt with for now. Constitutional crisis (probably) averted.
 
Crab said:
The government's kind of neutered this one. By conceding the issue, if Creasy pushes ahead it's clear she's doing so for solely political reasons. I think that one is dealt with for now. Constitutional crisis (probably) averted.
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On the plus side, it does mean on our 'who is actually our PM' game right now, it looks like Creasy is. We could do worse.
 
Lagamorph said:
This shouldn't surprise anybody.
It's no secret Corbyn is as hell bent on leaving the EU as Nigel Farage.
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Why though? I see people on here praising Corbyn and yet the things he says about Brexit are just as irrational as what May says.

He wants access to the single market yet he also wants limited freedom of movement and labour.

Corbyn, how?
 
Dirtyshubb said:
"Ok so we have tried twice to get this guy out and he has won both times and ran the most successful campaign swing since 1945, what should we do?

I know, lets keep trying"

People need to get in line, stop trying to force your own agenda and follow the damn script.
Click to expand...

Why would they fall in line when Corbyn himself has repeatedly refused to support the democratically chosen stance on Trident? It's a two way street. Corbyn spent his whole life throwing shit from the backbenches so he hasn't got a leg to stand on when it comes to the whip. He often pushes his own agenda instead of the party position.
 
oti said:
Why though? I see people on here praising Corbyn and yet the things he says about Brexit are just as irrational as what May says.

He wants access to the single market yet he also wants limited freedom of movement and labour.

Corbyn, how?
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At least he won't treat EU citizens like hostages and second class citizens unlike May.
 
Ushojax said:
Why would they fall in line when Corbyn himself has repeatedly refused to support the democratically chosen stance on Trident? It's a two way street. Corbyn spent his whole life throwing shit from the backbenches so he hasn't got a leg to stand on when it comes to the whip. He often pushes his own agenda instead of the party position.
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To be fair supporting Trident was on the manifesto and Corbyn has been honest about not agreeing with it but supporting the rest of the parties decisions to keep it.
 
oti said:
Why though? I see people on here praising Corbyn and yet the things he says about Brexit are just as irrational as what May says.

He wants access to the single market yet he also wants limited freedom of movement and labour.

Corbyn, how?
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Corbyn doesn't like a lot of the EU because he recons the balance of power is in the large multinational's hands.
I seriously doubt he's got much of a problem with freedom of movement, but recognises it's a big issue for a large % of the population.
 
oti said:
Why though? I see people on here praising Corbyn and yet the things he says about Brexit are just as irrational as what May says.

He wants access to the single market yet he also wants limited freedom of movement and labour.

Corbyn, how?
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Cognitive dissonance from some Labour supporters. Corbyn has never hidden his agenda on Europe (the mask slipped when he called for A50 to be invoked the morning of the referendum result) and it is why I can never vote for Labour as long as he is leader despite agreeing with most of the rest of his ideas.

Not that this matters at all as I have never been able to vote in a marginal.
 
Theonik said:
Arguably they promise nothing to no-one. Which is the best position to be or the EU then twists you over the points they know you can't concede on.
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Pretty much. The Tories were writing cheques for Brexit that reality won't cash. That's why they called the election in the first place, to cement their power for five years instead of getting kicked out in 2020 at the first sign of trouble.

Labour's policy is "we'll try and stay in the single market if we can, but if we can't then we'll leave it" which is about as earnest as anyone can be on the subject and a damn sight more palatable than "we'll stay in the single market and if the EU doesn't like it, we'll burn the whole fucking thing to the ground."

It's notable that Tory Brexit policy now seems to be following Labour's manifesto wording rather than their rhetoric from before the election. It's amazing what a bit of vulnerability does to demagogues.
 
Theonik said:
Arguably they promise nothing to no-one. Which is the best position to be or the EU then twists you over the points they know you can't concede on.
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Well we all know that they are being vague. But they definitely want out of the single market and customs union to do their own thing.

It will be interesting to see which Labour MPs rebel on this. Every single Lib Dem MP (and Lucas) are behind this amendment. So how many Labour MPs will rebel?
 
Huw_Dawson said:
Well we all know that they are being vague. But they definitely want out of the single market and customs union to do their own thing.

It will be interesting to see which Labour MPs rebel on this. Every single Lib Dem MP (and Lucas) are behind this amendment. So how many Labour MPs will rebel?
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I wonder how many Conservatives get behind the amendment too..
 
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