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[Bits N Pieces]

What if there is a chance that upon terminating it that it could be born into a different body?

You're robbing it of its chances of a proper functioning meat suit.

Don't really know how to respond to that so I won't bother.

 

[Westraid]

Quoting this whole post, because it's amazing; and really nails the complexity of this issue. Thank you for sharing.

You're an incredible person, if you were in my life I'd go to bat for you for just about anything.

Honestly I came here to delete the post since I worried I'd get really angry comments.
Thanks a lot for reading and for the kind comments, it means a lot.
I've never really talked about this, so it was very nice to get this off my chest.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Yeah, it's weird that conservatives are referred to as nazis every now and then, but then there is this issue where the more liberal people actually hold views about this issue that fall closer to nazism than the conservative view.

I mean, it's quite odd how the conservatives are actually very much against this type of "eugenics" and would think that it's better for a person to be born disabled instead of not being born at all, whereas the liberal stance for some is that it's better to terminate the fetus as soon as possible to completely avoid the disabled person to be born. In this case the nazis would've approved the liberal stance instead of the conservative stance.

#Godwin'sLaw

This is also a shitty take in light of the actual nazi march who killed someone

 

[Airola]

Puh-fucking-lease...

I'm not saying that applies to the pro-choice stance in general, but was referring to post like what borghe was replying to.

You perhaps still don't agree, but I'm not taking a word back from what I said. "It's immoral knowingly bringing a person with Down syndrome into this world" is literally closer to nazi ideology than the conservative stance.

This is also a shitty take in light of the actual nazi march who killed someone

Doesn't make it any less true though.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Honestly I came here to delete the post since I worried I'd get really angry comments.
Thanks a lot for reading and for the kind comments, it means a lot.
I've never really talked about this, so it was very nice to get this off my chest.

Please don't ever delete it.

The people arguing for abortion based on disability vs abortion based on individual choice need to hear stories like yours

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm not saying that applies to the pro-choice stance in general, but was referring to post like what borghe was replying to.

You perhaps still don't agree, but I'm not taking a word back from what I said. "It's immoral knowingly bringing a person with Down syndrome into this world" is literally closer to nazi ideology than the conservative stance.

Knock it off...

We've had actual Nazis marching just this weekend

 

[bitbydeath]

You should feel bad saying this and please don't become a pro choice activist

Sorry but I love my kids too much to do that to someone, what you're wanting is just plain selfish. IMO.

 

[Abilidebob]

Nah, I agree with that statement.
I think you're more of a monster in keeping it when knowing it has downs. TBH.

It's immoral knowingly bringing a person with Down syndrome into this world.

What the flying fuck is going on with GAF?

 

[excelsiorlef]

.



Doesn't make it any less true though.

It does when you're trying to use it to defend conservatives.

It wasn't liberals who marched with the Nazi flag in Charlottesville.

It wasn't liberals whom the President failed to repudiate.

 

[mcarlie]

It should be their choice anywhere in the world, but sadly not every country allows it yet. Hopefully that changes.

Abortion is always a choice you should have. If you get pregnant and do not want a child for whatever reason, that is up to you.

Now when you get pregnant and you know that the kid will require care for the rest of their lives, then it is up to the parents to decide if they want that responsibility and think they can do it. If they can, that is wonderful. I greatly respect parents who are there day in, day out, for their whole lives to raise someone with a disability, and we as a society should support them through our governments by providing them with the care they need.

But if you don't, that is also OK and there should be no judgement about it, which is something you are doing and I think is very unfair.

Why do the parents decide whether or not the child should be allowed to live? What is the moral justification?

 

[family_guy]

Yeah, it's weird that conservatives are referred to as nazis every now and then, but then there is this issue where the more liberal people actually hold views about this issue that fall closer to nazism than the conservative view.

I mean, it's quite odd how the conservatives are actually very much against this type of "eugenics" and would think that it's better for a person to be born disabled instead of not being born at all, whereas the liberal stance for some is that it's better to terminate the fetus as soon as possible to completely avoid the disabled person to be born. In this case the nazis would've approved the liberal stance instead of the conservative stance.

#Godwin'sLaw

But then there's the conservative stance of have the baby, but it's not our problem to help you keep it alive and raise it.

 

[Pau]

Why do the parents decide whether or not the child should be allowed to live? What is the moral justification?

The mother has to carry the child to term and that should never be forced upon a person. So it's her decision.

 

[Ryzaki009]

Why do the parents decide whether or not the child should be allowed to live? What is the moral justification?

Her carrying the child is the justification. As soon as a child is capable of living apart from their mother that's a different matter until then tho she gets the last say.

 

[mcarlie]

The mother has to carry the child to term and that should never be forced upon a person. So it's her decision.

Why does any potential suffering on the mother's part take precedents over the life of the child?

Her carrying the child is the justification. As soon as a child is capable of living apart from their mother that's a different matter until then tho she gets the last say.

Why does self-sustainability suddenly give a person the right to life? What about not being able to take care of oneself diminishes the value of one's life?

 

[Madame M]

Fun fact: It wasn't until very recently in American politics that pro-life and pro-choice had anything to do with being a liberal or conservative.

 

[Airola]

It does when you're trying to use it to defend conservatives.

It wasn't liberals who marched with the Nazi flag in Charlottesville.

It wasn't liberals whom the President failed to repudiate.

Fuck that, the nazi ideals are shit no matter what.
Those ideals aren't something that cannot exist outside the conservatives.

What you just said is exactly the reason why I brought that up. It is the usual thought that liberals should be against nazism in any form. And everything that has happened in Charlottesville should prove that point. Yet, ironically, this "abort the disabled" thing is a total opposite. And that makes it really weird.

While I certainly applaud your stance on what that one poster wrote here, I don't think we should ever stop calling out ideals like that, even if it might involve some from the liberals, and even a terrible thing has just happened.

But then there's the conservative stance of have the baby, but it's not our problem to help you keep it alive and raise it.

And still my point about the difference between killing the disabled and letting the disabled to live stands. There's no way around it. For some reason this is a situation where the usual conservative ideals are further from nazi ideals than some liberal ideals are. And I have no idea why it is like it is, but that's how it is. I'm glad this doesn't seem to be the opinion that most of the liberals in this thread hold though. There seem to be many who have completely denounced it, like for example excelsiorlef, and that's awesome.

But it is still ironic that this stance seems to be held more in liberal circles than in conservative circles, at least what comes to how people usually connect certain politics to nazism.

 

[Pau]

Why does any potential suffering on the mother's part take precedents over the life of the child?

Because women are people with a right to their own bodies. No one is allowed access to your body even if it means saving a life (think forced blood or organ donation).

 

[Ryzaki009]

Why does self-sustainability suddenly give a person the right to life? What about not being able to take care of oneself diminishes the value of one's life?

Their life is dependent on the mother putting her life and health on the line. So yeah that's what diminishes it's value.

 

[hurricanes]

Why does any potential suffering on the mother's part take precedents over the life of the child?

Because it's their body and women have the right to decide if they want to carry a life to term or not.

 

[mcarlie]

Because women are people with a right to their own bodies. No one is allowed access to your body even if it means saving a life (think forced blood or organ donation).

We are talking about something inside the woman which is distinct from the woman. Does the property of being inside someone else in addition to being dependent upon that person also diminish the value of one's life?

Their life is dependent on the mother putting her life and health on the line. So yeah that's what diminishes it's value.

If someone's life is dependent upon someone else's and may diminish the quality of someone else's life then you don't have the right to live, is that right?

Because it's their body and women have the right to decide if they want to carry a life to term or not.

See my answer to Pau.

 

[Pau]

Can pro life men figure out how to be incubators already so that they can carry these children to term?

 

[Ryzaki009]

If someone's life is dependent upon someone else's and may diminish the quality of someone else's life then you don't have the right to live, is that right?

If I require some else's body to live and they don't want to give their body up for me then yeah I don't have the right to sacrifice their health for mine.

 

[Pau]

We are talking about something inside the woman which is distinct from the woman. Does the property of being inside someone else in addition to being dependent upon that person also diminish the value of one's life?



If someone's life is dependent upon someone else's and may diminish the quality of someone else's life then you don't have the right to live, is that right?



See my answer to Pau.

Yup you got it. If the only way you can survive is by being literally inside someone else's body, they got dibs on whether or not you're allowed in there. Full stop.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

Then I'm not sure that your initial reply to me addressed what I said because I was speaking to pro choice folks who were, meaning well or not, arguing for abortions in a manner that was unnecessarily stigmatizing disability.

So you're reply talking the reverse had nothing to do with my statement

You're right. We're talking past each other. I don't disagree with your sentiment; in fact I appreciate your attempt to tamp down some of the rhetoric in this thread.

 

[mcarlie]

If I require some else's body to live and they don't want to give their body up for me then yeah I don't have the right to sacrifice their health for mine.

Barring the case of rape, these women made the choice to bring the child about.

Let's say that the child is not aborted. A child with Down's syndrome is difficult to take care of and may have an adverse effect on (at least the mental) health of the parents. Is that child's life now of less worth then other more healthier, less demanding children?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Fuck that, the nazi ideals are shit no matter what.
Those ideals aren't something that cannot exist outside the conservatives.

What you just said is exactly the reason why I brought that up. It is the usual thought that liberals should be against nazism in any form. And everything that has happened in Charlottesville should prove that point. Yet, ironically, this "abort the disabled" thing is a total opposite. And that makes it really weird.

While I certainly applaud your stance on what that one poster wrote here, I don't think we should ever stop calling out ideals like that, even if it might involve some from the liberals, and even a terrible thing has just happened.

1) You decided to use it to make some shitty "and they call conservatives Nazis" a few short days after actual Nazis marched and murdered and the President couldn't denounce the.

2) The distaste here is revolting but is of a different type than Nazism which called for those living with disabilities to be exterminated.

You're right. We're talking past each other. I don't disagree with your sentiment; in fact I appreciate your attempt to tamp down some of the rhetoric in this thread.

Cheers

 

[eot]

Why do the parents decide whether or not the child should be allowed to live? What is the moral justification?

For me the moral justification is that the fetus is not a person, it doesn't have hopes, dreams, feelings, fears or consciousness.

 

[mcarlie]

Yup you got it. If the only way you can survive is by being literally inside someone else's body, they got dibs on whether or not you're allowed in there. Full stop.

The mother in these cases most likely intentionally brought about the circumstances which caused the pregnancy. The child also did not choose to be dependent on a mother who later decided that she would take his or her life into her hands and terminate the life before it could be experienced.

For me the moral justification is that the fetus is not a person, it doesn't have hopes, dreams, feelings, fears or consciousness.

When we are talking about life or death we need to be absolutely certain.

It may sound a little silly but there is an episode of Star Trek TNG where data the android has to go before a judge to determine whether or not he has the right to refuse being disassembled, with one side arguing that he has no right to refuse and the other side saying that he does. The argument that wins his right to choose in the end is that there is no way to know with absolute certainty whether or not he is conscious or whether or not he has moral rights and therefore it would be too audacious to make any claim either way. It is too audacious to claim to know with any certainty whether or not the fetus has any moral rights or not. And when stuck in this position of skepticism the only moral choice to make is to not allow terminating the life.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Barring the case of rape, these women made the choice to bring the child about.

Let's say that the child is not aborted. A child with Down's syndrome is difficult to take care of and may have an adverse effect on (at least the mental) health of the parents. Is that child's life now of less worth then other more healthier, less demanding children?

Choice is choice and needs to remain choice. The specific morality behind that choice is irrelevant.

Once born everything changes and it is no longer about choice.

 

[Ondor]

Fuck that, the nazi ideals are shit no matter what.
Those ideals aren't something that cannot exist outside the conservatives.

What you just said is exactly the reason why I brought that up. It is the usual thought that liberals should be against nazism in any form. And everything that has happened in Charlottesville should prove that point. Yet, ironically, this "abort the disabled" thing is a total opposite. And that makes it really weird.

While I certainly applaud your stance on what that one poster wrote here, I don't think we should ever stop calling out ideals like that, even if it might involve some from the liberals, and even a terrible thing has just happened.

I understand where you're coming from but this seems incredibly tone deaf. Conservative ideology usually stems from religion where it's not the actual life of the child that matters but the very fact that God gave life to the child. When the child is born, they got their life and now they are on their own. You see that in conservative politicians' call for gutting aid for the mentally and physically disabled. In more religious circles, a child born with a disability is seen as God punishing the family. Some people still believe that medical illnesses are the work of the devil. The concept of life is considered pure but as soon as that life is 'defective' in some way it's treated with a stigma.

Hitler did what he did out of the belief in the purity of an aryan race. I understand this article has a strange celebratory tone to it but I think most posters here aren't for arguing the abortion of a child to eliminate a genetic defect to keep society pure a la Hitler. A lot of these posts are out of compassion and understanding for the mother and her right to her own body. That's a far cry from what you're describing. Obviously there are exceptions because political leanings aren't a monolith but what you're saying has very little basis in reality.

 

[Pau]

Barring the case of rape, these women made the choice to bring the child about.

Let's say that the child is not aborted. A child with Down's syndrome is difficult to take care of and may have an adverse effect on (at least the mental) health of the parents. Is that child's life now of less worth then other more healthier, less demanding children?

I think you misunderstand the part about pregnancy that requires you to literally carry a child within you.

 

[Madame M]

I'll happily call liberals Nazis when they start supporting eugenics plans controlled by the state but I don't see that anywhere in their rhetoric.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The mother in these cases most likely intentionally brought about the circumstances which caused the pregnancy. The child also did not choose to be dependent on a mother who later decided that she would take his or her life into her hands and terminate the life before it could be experienced.

Irrelevant.

There is no situation on earth when we enforce someone to literally donate their body to another. Not even in death.

 

[Pau]

The mother in these cases most likely intentionally brought about the circumstances which caused the pregnancy. The child also did not choose to be dependent on a mother who later decided that she would take his or her life into her hands and terminate the life before it could be experienced.

So? There is no point at which you can revoke someone's right to their own body.

 

[mcarlie]

Choice is choice and needs to remain choice. The specific morality behind that choice is irrelevant.

Once born everything changes and it is no longer about choice.

I don't understand this argument. The ability to choose is always more important than whether or not the action is moral? If I choose to steal something that I'm within my right to do so because I otherwise wouldn't be able to make a choice?

So? There is no point at which you can revoke someone's right to their own body.

You haven't given an argument for this assertion which makes it difficult to give any kind of response since there is nothing to respond to.

Irrelevant.

There is no situation on earth when we enforce someone to literally donate their body to another. Not even in death.

Same goes for you.

I think you misunderstand the part about pregnancy that requires you to literally carry a child within you.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

 

[Fallout-NL]

Ugh, someone on the internet is wrong, and it's you, mcarlie. I can't imagine the stress of being forced to carry a child with down syndrome to term. One, it would mean a life long of going above and beyond in providing a level of care that none of us can imagine (except those with a sibling or child with downs). Two, hell, I'm an intelligent man and I have very little faith I'll be able to sustain myself, my girlfriend and manage to scrape together some kind of pension in this fucked up 21st century, how the fuck is someone with down syndrome supposed to do that when I'm no longer around? I'm not doing that to that myself, nor am I planning to do that to my kids. Screw you for wanting to force that on people, it's bullshit. If, however they choose to do that - More power to them, their choice. But that's the point. It's their choice.

 

[Ryzaki009]

Barring the case of rape, these women made the choice to bring the child about.

Let's say that the child is not aborted. A child with Down's syndrome is difficult to take care of and may have an adverse effect on (at least the mental) health of the parents. Is that child's life now of less worth then other more healthier, less demanding children?

Yes and they can evict the child from their body as well. It's not a one time deal and it's done. The circumstances changed and thus the mother changed her mind. The child being dependent on being on her body to live is subject to her deciding to keep hosting it. It's not complicated.

I don't care in that scenario because the mother already made her choice to provide for said child.

 

[Pau]

I don't understand this argument. The ability to choose is always more important than whether or not the action is moral? If I choose to steal something that I'm within my right to do so because I otherwise wouldn't be able to make a choice?

No, the ability to choose what gets to reside in your body is what's important. I wonder if this is hard for you to understand because it might be something you'll never have to worry about ever experiencinh and keep waving away as if it's nothing.

 

[mcarlie]

Yes and they can evict the child from their body as well. It's not a one time deal and it's done. The circumstances changed and thus the mother changed her mind. The child being dependent on being on her body to live is subject to her deciding to keep hosting it. It's not complicated.

Yes the child's life is worth less? If that's what you are saying then I am disgusted.

I don't care in that scenario because the mother already made her choice to provide for said child.

She may change her mind. Does she have the right to kill the child now? You already seemed to admit that the child's life is worth less.

No, the ability to choose what gets to reside in your body is what's important. I wonder if this is hard for you to understand because it might be something you'll never have to worry about ever experience and keep waving away as if it's nothing.

What do you mean by "it's what's important"? That isn't an argument, you've just claimed that it's more important without referring to anything else to justify your claim.

 

[Pau]

I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

Clearly because you don't understand the right of bodily autonomy. It's okay, no one is ever going to force you to have an abortion.

 

[Airola]

1) You decided to use it to make some shitty "and they call conservatives Nazis" a few short days after actual Nazis marched and murdered and the President couldn't denounce the.

I decided to say it because of this thread. Because of Iceland. Because of what someone said in this thread. Because of what someone replied in this thread and specifically mentioned the many racism threads in this forum.

If I had said this, say, a year or two from now, or a year or two earlier than now, would I then had been more correct or more welcome to say it?

People have called conservatives nazis before Charlottesville or Trump. People have connected conservatives to nazis more than liberals to nazis way before this. And this is why this certain type of a situation is ironic.

I'm not American so you don't have to filter my writings through whatever the president of your(?) country is doing or saying.

2) The distaste here is revolting but is of a different type than Nazism which called for those living with disabilities to be exterminated.

"...but it's different type" could be said to many other things too. Sure nazism at its extreme is situations where people are executed in a massive scale, but the whole ideology should be mocked not because it could bring up death but because of the basic ideology of some types of people being sub-human. The anti-disabled views are straight up that.

 

[Geist-]

This is one of the many problems that Abortion can solve, just like vaccines solved polio. It's a medical solution, the world would be a better place if everyone understood that.

 

[velociraptor]

what the fuck!?!?!????? this is the most horrible thing I have read on GAF today, and we have like 5 threads on the front page about racism............ wtf????

Down syndrome presents with a wide range of medical issues including cardiovascular, neurological (including early-onset Alzheimer's at the age of 40), infectious, hearing, vision, thyroid and other endocrine problems.

These people require help for their entire life, but that doesn't change the outcome or prognosis of their disease, and their quality of life is vastly inferior to the rest of the population.

There is NOTHING nice about it.

If it is possible to eliminate such syndromes from society, then that would surely be great.

 

[Pau]

Yes the child's life is worth less? If that's what you are saying then I am disgusted.


She may change her mind. Does she have the right to kill the child now? You already seemed to admit that the child's life is worth less.



What do you mean by "it's what's important"? That isn't an argument, you've just claimed that it's more important without referring to anything else to justify your claim.

What else do I have to refer to? I already told you that a woman's right to her own body is more important than the potential life of a child. If you have an issue with it, never get an abortion.

 

[mcarlie]

But that's the point. It's their choice.

Seems like there's a lot of difficulty providing any actual arguments that aren't just banal repetitions of some mantra.

 

[The Broken Ska Record]

Let the parents decide for themselves if they decide they want and can take care of a child with Down Syndrome, and whatever their choice, it's theirs.

In this case, I think it's a good thing that these tests are available.
I have an adoptive brother who is 24 years old. But he has the mental capacity of a 2 or 3 year old. My parents did not 'sign up' for a special needs child, but they got one 'on accident'.
My brother does not have Down Syndrome, but he lives in a home with others who all have it.

If you ever feel unloved, go to a home where people with Down Syndrome live.
Every time I visit my brother, I'm getting at least a dozen hugs by each of them. Mental disability is called 'limited' here.
I see them dancing along the music with all their love and enthusiasm and not a shred of worry about how they might look.
And I'm awkwardly standing to the side line having serious doubts about who is the real 'limited' one in the room.
Every year on my brother's birthday, they each write a speech to tell him what they like about him, and how much they love him.
Some write it down, some try to memorize it, some just wing it. But it's all heartfelt in a way that I wish I could express myself.

That are some of the upsides of Down.

It's possible for someone with the Down Syndrome to have a normal to high IQ, but this is rare. Most of them are not able to live independently.
For their entire lives, they will need help. My brother and some of the people he lives with have simple jobs. Spikes in boxes. Wrapping things up. Simple farm work. Simple householding and cleaning.
My brother loves his packing job because the trucks come pick up all the boxes when the work is done and he loves trucks. He'll never be able to drive one.

There's always a caretaker in the house. They need help with medicine, bathing, dressing and getting ready for going to work if they can do any.
They are in their mid-twenties and none of them can go out unsupervised, because they do not have the mental capability to stay out of harms way in traffic, and to make it back home.
Some of them can read and write a bit and some can count a bit, but sorting out taxes? Never.

Their immune system isn't as strong as 'normal' people's.
Back in spring, one of the girls was so ill they thought she wouldn't live to see Summer. She miraculously recovered and seems to be doing well. For now.
Nearly half of people with Down Syndrome have heart defects and need multiple surgeries in their life. Thyroid gland related issues are common.
They are all motivated to exercise as much as possible, and treats are kept to a minimum because they put on weight easily.

People with down syndrome do not live as long as people without it. And when they get old, they have a high risk to develop dementia.

Homes aren't perfect. You can search the world for the best one and place your child there. It still won't be up to your standards.
I've seen my parents try. First just for the weekends. Since a few years, permanently.
There's been incidents. People gotten hurt. Things went missing. Innocents accused.
A friend of the family went through a lot to get their daughter in a home. But it didn't work out, and she couldn't stay there. She's in her mid 30s and is living with her parents again. Her parents are getting old and their daughter needs a lot of care.
Sometimes, both need to work on the same day, and there is no other choice but locking up their daughter in a padded playroom and hoping she'll be fine for the hours they're gone.

In contrast with my brother, I was the smartest kid in my class. Teachers told my parents "She's gonna make it far in life!"
When I was around 16, I applied for a school abroad. It was a school held in high regard and I was accepted.
Overjoyed, I showed my mother. "But that's too far away. If you study there, you'll want to live there. Then who will take care of your brother when we are too old?"

My brother brags about me a lot to his housemates. Because I can read and write and because I can drive a car. Even though I barely reach 5 feet and he's much taller than me, he looks up to me.
He comes back from his work and he gives me a music box wrapped in toilet paper, something he has stolen but he doesn't understand that it's wrong.
At times when I visit, he says to me, in his very limited vocabulary, that he missed me, those are the times I think "It's okay, it's fine. It's worth it that I gave up my dreams to take care of you because you can't help how you are."

But a selfish part of myself can't help to think how my life could have been. If.

This post legitimately made me have a lump in my throat. I feel that if my son had been born with Downs Syndrome, I would love him all the same. But one thing I'd be scared of would be who would take care of him when I'm gone?

 

[mcarlie]

What else do I have to refer to? I already told you that a woman's right to her own body is more important than the potential life of a child. If you have an issue with it, never get an abortion.

A woman's right to choose is less important than the life of the child.

Wow, it's really easy to argue like this. Just make claims without any backing arguments.

 

[Fallout-NL]

Seems like there's a lot of difficulty providing any actual arguments that aren't just banal repetitions of some mantra.

Actual arguments? Like the ones you skipped over to pretend you did a good job responding to my post?

 

[Ondor]

This is one of the many problems that Abortion can solve, just like vaccines solved polio. It's a medical solution, the world would be a better place if everyone understood that.

From what I understand of the disease, there is no solution. Downs randomly occurs, so even if every fetus with downs was aborted and no one had it in the population, it would still work its way back in.

 

[Pau]

A woman's right to choose is less important than the life of the child.

Wow, it's really easy to argue like this. Just make claims without any backing arguments.

Bodily autonomy is an argument, you just don't agree with it. Same way that "life of the child above all else" is a reason for pro-life, even if I don't agree with it.