Support NeoGAF

[Toadthemushroom]

Interesting analysis on Ars Technica about Forza 7's loot box system and how it affects the core design of some aspects of the game: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017...d-a-new-low-with-forza-7s-pay-to-earn-option/

Essentially, Forza 7 allows players to spend money opening Prize Crates, which exist in a variety of types, each costing different amounts of CR and promising different cars or cosmetics.

At launch you'll only be able to open loot boxes using CR earned in-game, but Turn10 confirmed to Ars that you'll be able to use Tokens in the future - bought with real money. I suspect Turn10 will look at player behaviour shortly after launch (each loot box roll will be sent to the servers...) and optimise the system for the best balance vs. microtransaction payments.

I'll let Ars' Sam take over here:

But Forza 7 adds a peculiar and arguably non-essential twist to the loot boxes' random contents through a new item called a "mod." That might sound like an item that will modify a car to enhance its performance, but it actually modifies the circumstances of the next race—and, consequently, the amount of CR you can earn in that race.

Apply a "night race" mod to your car before a race, for example, and you'll turn your next race from day to night—and earn 30 percent more CR on that race. An "instability" mod turns off one of the game's "driver assist" perks in exchange for a 30-percent CR boost. Some mods don't count unless you complete an objective, like pulling off two "perfect turns" in a race. Other mods simply grant a flat CR reward boost in your next race without additional requirements.

Changing the difficulty or terms of a single race in exchange for a higher CR payout will sound familiar to Forza fans, because this used to simply be a standard thing you could do whenever you wanted. Players could manually add or remove certain assists—like "driving line" marks of where you should accelerate and brake—and get more CR per race for having fewer assists. That's no longer the case. You can still adjust the assists as you see fit, but you won't be rewarded for doing so... unless you have the right mod in your inventory.

Turn 10 has taken away a solid "play how you want for more CR" system in order to have a new, more marketable loot-box gimmick. But Forza 7's mods, which can only be earned in loot boxes, are primarily just another way for players to shuffle their CR coins around. The loot box system encourages players to dump their stacks of CR into the loot box economy in order to earn more CR. Spend CR to make CR! That's just good business.

As expected, there's the usual assortment of cosmetics in these Prize Crates, complete with doubles:

Even here, there are a few catches. First, the game at launch includes a whopping 361 costumes, but they must all be individually unlocked (with the exception of outfits unlocked by either owning prior games or by paying for the game's "deluxe" version). More than 100 of those are color-differentiation clones of the game's more generic designs, which dilutes the unlocking pool. Worst of all, you cannot individually unlock outfits with in-game currency. If you're eyeing a specific outfit, you have to hope that you open the right prize crate or find it as a random reward for leveling up via the game's "experience points" system (which can take as many as eight races to do per XP level).

It really does feel like publishers are going too far with this. Having loot boxes unlock modifiers that feed back in more addictive behaviour (racing more courses with a CR bonus) to encourage players to spend more time playing the game in hope of purchasing even more loot boxes sounds like it'll keep people racing for all the wrong reasons.

I'd like to see more information on how the Prize Crate contents are divided up. We know that for, say, the driver cosmetics, there are a lot of similar-looking items to mess around with the odds of getting a double when you actually want this one specific item. But are the different types of Prize Crates item-specific? That is, do Crates only ever contain one kind of item, for example driver cosmetics, or mods, or only cars? Or have Turn10 made it so every category of item is generally in one type of Prize Crate?

Regardless, it definitely feels like they are trying to maximise player engagement *shudder* with these systems, so players keep racing for more CR or buying more tokens (in the future) to keep coming back to open more loot boxes, and then maybe apply more mods to race more races and earn more CR to open more loot boxes. And undoubtedly players are going to be interested in attaining some of these items, especially anyone who isn't familiar with how these addiction-enabling mechanics affect player behaviour.

What do you make of this?

 

[Zombie James]

Loot boxes by any other name smell as badly.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

This sounds a lot like Destiny 2's system. My solution is to not spend money and just play the base game.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

Fuck this paid loot box bullshit.

That's my take.

 

[Savantcore]

Changing the difficulty or terms of a single race in exchange for a higher CR payout will sound familiar to Forza fans, because this used to simply be a standard thing you could do whenever you wanted. Players could manually add or remove certain assists—like "driving line" marks of where you should accelerate and brake—and get more CR per race for having fewer assists. That's no longer the case. You can still adjust the assists as you see fit, but you won't be rewarded for doing so... unless you have the right mod in your inventory.

That is abhorrent, good lord. What next, pay money to unlock hard mode to unlock a secret ending?

 

[alr1ght]

Government regulation can't come soon enough. It's up to you, Europe.

 

[stanislavskov]

Do people actually play Forza? In any case, I guess that's what happens when you dilute a franchise into oblivion. I mean, this is the 7th (or 10th if you factor Horizon titles) installment in just a little over 10 years, and since it appears they can't make the game itself more engaging or interesting, I guess they just decided to add microtransactions and call it a day.

 

[Strings]

Microsoft's first party in-game purchases have been incredibly dodgy this generation :/

 

[Stone Ocean]

At this point I just want publishers to push the line until it blows up in their faces.

Go on, give a reason for lawmakers to hunt you dowm. Do it.

 

[TheAdmiester]

Do people actually play Forza? In any case, I guess that's what happens when you dilute a franchise into oblivion. I mean, this is the 7th (or 10th if you factor Horizon titles) in just a little over 10 years, and since it appears they can't make the game itself more engaging or interesting, I guess they just decided to add microtransactions and call it a day.

What on earth are you talking about?

 

[Domstercool]

Mods were in Forza 6 as well....doing the same thing to get you more credits for changes to the car, etc, so I'm not sure why they say it is new?

 

[Theorry]

Do people actually play Forza? In any case, I guess that's what happens when you dilute a franchise into oblivion. I mean, this is the 7th (or 10th if you factor Horizon titles) in just a little over 10 years, and since it appears they can't make the game itself more engaging or interesting, I guess they just decided to add microtransactions and call it a day.

The hell is this? Jesus.

 

[What did he mean by this?]

I honestly can only laugh at the loot box gaas stuff taking over.

 

[alr1ght]

I honestly can only laugh at the loot box gaas stuff taking over.

 

[GlamFM]

Just don´t buy the loot boxes and move on. Jesus.

Also mods were already in the last Forza.

 

[Not Drake]

I've been very critical of Forza business model since FM4 basically and while they changed a lot of stuff for the better (Forza Rewards grants massive payouts and cars are not insanely expensive forcing you to buy them with coins anymore), but this is troubling. This along with some PC problems stopped me from insta buying it today. I don't think it's THAT much of a problem. The only thing that sounds genuinely bad is the no CR boost for turning off assists. That's bullshit.

Do people actually play Forza? In any case, I guess that's what happens when you dilute a franchise into oblivion. I mean, this is the 7th (or 10th if you factor Horizon titles) in just a little over 10 years, and since it appears they can't make the game itself more engaging or interesting, I guess they just decided to add microtransactions and call it a day.

Tell us how you really feel, buddy.

 

[danowat]

People need to stop buying this loot box shit, if they don't, it'll keep coming.

Spoiler

They won't stop, and it'll keep coming

 

[Papacheeks]

It's funny I brought this up a long time ago about GAAS games not really helping Xbox's image issue with software.

People jumped down my throat.

And they still probably will find a way to defend this.

 

[Ahasverus]

$60 game everyone.

 

[Zombie James]

$60 game everyone.

$60 free-to-play game.

 

[TriniTrin]

Mods were in Forza 6 as well....doing the same thing to get you more credits for changes to the car, etc, so I'm not sure why they say it is new?

I remember playing Forza horizon and being able to increase difficulty to increase credit earned. They are saying it's locked behind pay wall loot crates now and that's some shit!

 

[TheXbox]

Locking legacy features behind a paywall is never a bad idea.

 

[KainXVIII]

Is like Rocket League boxes?

 

[stanislavskov]

What on earth are you talking about?

The hell is this? Jesus.

Well, the original Forza came out in 2005, so this year marks the series twelfth year. Also, the last few titles of this series felt really underwhelming, in my opinion. It just feels like the series is in a rut, for me, and that it doesn't seem like it's seeing the success it once had, hence why I questioned if people are still playing it. Also, seeing as the next game hasn't shown anything interesting or engaging, it feels like the only change is the addition of microtransactions. I'm sorry if my post wasn't clear enough, I certainly didn't expect to elicit such reactions.

 

[Kaleinc]

But but lootboxes don't affect gameplay.

 

[JlNX]

When I read that title I was expecting something really bad, but this looks just like 6's implementation and I don't see whats wrong with it.

 

[Zombie James]

When I read that title I was expecting something really bad, but this looks just like 6's implementation and I don't see whats wrong with it.

From the article:

Let me be clear: As of press time, Forza Motorsport 7 does not let you pay real money for its CR coins or for its loot boxes. But that will almost certainly change. Turn 10 confirmed its plans in a statement to Ars Technica: "Once we confirm that the game economy is balanced and fun for our players out in the wild, we plan to offer Tokens [a real-money currency that works like CR] as a matter of player choice. Some players appreciate using Tokens as a way of gaining immediate access to content that may take many hours to acquire in the normal course of play. There will also be an option within the in-game menu to turn off Tokens entirely." That being said, the following criticisms apply to Forza 7's loot boxes even without them being attached to a real-world economy.

 

[Abhor]

More loot box shit in another $60 game. Disgusting.

 

[Qassim]

Well, the original Forza came out in 2005, so this year marks the series twelfth year. Also, the last few titles of this series felt really underwhelming, in my opinion. It just feels like the series is in a rut, for me, and that it doesn't seem like it's seeing the success it once had, hence why I questioned if people are still playing it. Also, seeing as the next game hasn't shown anything interesting or engaging, it feels like the only change is the addition of microtransactions. I'm sorry if my post wasn't clear enough, I certainly didn't expect to elicit such reactions.

What exactly are your metrics for success? Your own personal enjoyment of the series isn't relevant.

 

[Synth]

It's funny I brought this up a long time ago about GAAS games not really helping Xbox's image issue with software.

People jumped down my throat.

And they still probably will find a way to defend this.

I was one of those.

This is an example I'd agree is actually intrusive.

 

[Theorry]

Well, the original Forza came out in 2005, so this year marks the series twelfth year. Also, the last few titles of this series felt really underwhelming, in my opinion. It just feels like the series is in a rut, for me, and that it doesn't seem like it's seeing the success it once had, hence why I questioned if people are still playing it. Also, seeing as the next game hasn't shown anything interesting or engaging, it feels like the only change is the addition of microtransactions. I'm sorry if my post wasn't clear enough, I certainly didn't expect to elicit such reactions.

Guess you should pay more attention. Every game including the Horizon serie has been a "success" Maybe 5 was abit underwhelming. But 6 was a great one again and looking at the reviews 7 builds on that even more. And we got last year Horizon 3 wich sits on a MT score of 9.1 and has been a "success" sales wise also.

 

[Gator86]

$60 free-to-play game.

Gaming public loves shitty business practices. People will eat this up and the defense force will eventually arrive and "actually, these are good" the rest of us to death.

 

[danowat]

When I read that title I was expecting something really bad, but this looks just like 6's implementation and I don't see whats wrong with it.

The direct removal of the extra CR system, where drivers would earn more for using less assists etc, and putting it behind a paywall is VERY different from 6's implementation.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Can't wait for loot boxes to have loot boxes!

Sadly most of gaming will be okay with this. Gotta love that corporate worship.

 

[Tempy]

Well, the original Forza came out in 2005, so this year marks the series twelfth year. Also, the last few titles of this series felt really underwhelming, in my opinion. It just feels like the series is in a rut, for me, and that it doesn't seem like it's seeing the success it once had, hence why I questioned if people are still playing it. Also, seeing as the next game hasn't shown anything interesting or engaging, it feels like the only change is the addition of microtransactions. I'm sorry if my post wasn't clear enough, I certainly didn't expect to elicit such reactions.

What does this derailment have anything to do with with the topic at hand?

 

[Grisby]

That's not a very cool thing to do Turn 10.

Do people actually play Forza? .

I believe they do good sir.

 

[Chrisdk]

I’m not really sure how this is a “new low”. Seems like every other game with loot boxes. Not really that fussed if the game is worth $60.

 

[GHG]

Just don´t buy the loot boxes and move on. Jesus.

Also mods were already in the last Forza.

That's not the point of this thread. The main issues that surround this type of thing are how it might effect game design and the fact that it introduces gambling mechanics to young children who will lack the maturity to be able to deal with something like this properly.

Honestly, I think if game publishers/developers want to introduce this type of shit into their games then it should mean that the game is automatically rated 18+ (or whatever the legal age for gambling is in each country). Take the hard line and they will soon start thinking twice about it.

It needs to start being classified as gambling.

 

[Synth]

Well, the original Forza came out in 2005, so this year marks the series twelfth year. Also, the last few titles of this series felt really underwhelming, in my opinion. It just feels like the series is in a rut, for me, and that it doesn't seem like it's seeing the success it once had, hence why I questioned if people are still playing it. Also, seeing as the next game hasn't shown anything interesting or engaging, it feels like the only change is the addition of microtransactions. I'm sorry if my post wasn't clear enough, I certainly didn't expect to elicit such reactions.

Look, don't play dumb... clearly people "actually play Forza" in order to justify continued sequels.

If you don't like them that's fine.. but don't jump into topics to just shitpost irrelevantly.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Scarce worse in current gaming than the re-framing of roulette-wheel loot box cash shop bullshit as "player choice."

 

[Zombie James]

I’m not really sure how this is a “new low”. Seems like every other game with loot boxes. Not really that fussed if the game is worth $60.

Every time a game that costs money turns into a free-to-play game but still charges consumers up-front, it's a new low.

 

[le.phat]

Think hard on the vote you are casting by buying this game. Once the precedent is set, there is no way back.

 

[epmode]

Government regulation can't come soon enough.

I'm getting to this point too.

 

[semiconscious]

$60 free-to-play game.

this has, indeed, become the new paradigm ...

 

[Niks]

That's not the point of this thread. The main issues that surround this type of thing are how it might effect game design and the fact that it introduces gambling mechanics to young children who will lack the maturity to be able to deal with something like this properly.

Honestly, I think if game publishers/developers want to introduce this type of shit into their games then it should mean that the game is automatically rated 18+ (or whatever the legal age for gambling is in each country). Take the hard line and they will soon start thinking twice about it.

Agreed, I really wonder if sometime during the development period the team gathers to brainstorm on "how to scam the users" "without being too obvious".

Shameful really.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

Just don´t buy the loot boxes and move on. Jesus.

Not everyone is able to, though. I'm lucky enough in that mechanics like this don't affect me, but even so I can tell the game itself is balanced in a different way to than before, then attaining everything desirable was something developers hoped every player may eventually be able to do.

But what about other people - younger players are likely to not understand these systems and be programmed by these mechanics. There might be people who might be the same age as you, who could suffer from depression and be more susceptible to the social effects of having rare cosmetics or cars. Or there might be people with addictive personalities.

Is it right to design game mechanics that cause players to play more...just because they feel they should? Sure, the core feel of the game may be fun, but if you have players racing dozens of races just to farm CR to feed back into a loot box system doesn't sound like time well spent to me. Or if you pay in a load of money (or time) into the system in pursuit of a desired item, could you really say that in-game item was worth the cost involved in attaining it?

 

[MaDKaT]

Not a fan and feel it is predatory but as long as everything in the game is accessible via in game credits(aside from future DLC) Ill deal. However, if it becomes too grindy I will just move on.

 

[ebullientprism]

I dont mind this shit in MP as long as its cosmetics only.

Any SP game that does this is instantly on the NEVER buy list. Not even on a sale. Fuck any company that tries this.

Government regulation can't come soon enough. It's up to you, Europe.

Also this. Clearly companies arent responsible enough to self regulate. Its a race to the bottom.

 

[Synth]

Think hard on the vote you are casting by buying this game. Once the precedent is set, there is no way back.

You really think this game is the precedent?...

 

[Nheco]

Do people actually play Forza? In any case, I guess that's what happens when you dilute a franchise into oblivion. I mean, this is the 7th (or 10th if you factor Horizon titles) installment in just a little over 10 years, and since it appears they can't make the game itself more engaging or interesting, I guess they just decided to add microtransactions and call it a day.

Winners don't do drugs, son.

Forza series is one of the greatest and biggest racing franchises nowadays.

@topic: well, this exists on Forza series at least since Forza 5. And honestly, I had never bought a single token. So, yeah... not a biggie.