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[GHG]

I know about the race length feature. Question is can you have a 60-120 minute race if you set it to extra long or is it still a reasonable amount of laps to complete.

Anyway I find out on Tuesday, the urge to play Forza is too strong, I'll just try to stay away from the loot box bullshit and enjoy the game.

Tops out at 50 laps apparently.

So the amount of time will depend on the length of the track and what car you're in.

 

[Fortinbras]

Found this on reddit

I can see a few refunding the Ultimate edition and rebuying the normal edition. Seeing as the VIP credit perk was probably a decider for some.

Got a refund. Took a while though. Chat support seems very busy today.

 

[Audioboxer]

Got a refund. Took a while though. Chat support seems very busy today.

Jim Sterling isn't going to do them any favours either in the next 24-72 hours. It'll be interesting to see if any other reviewers pay attention or just push out their reviews and say nothing. We have spoken confirmation the in-game currency store is coming, so while prices aren't known yet any WIP reviews can at least mention that before going live.

 

[xrnzaaas]

Tops out at 50 laps apparently.

So the amount of time will depend on the length of the track and what car you're in.

That's not bad, 50 laps of Spa or Le Mans should provide a long race. Fans of oval racing might feel otherwise, but fortunately I'm not one of them.

 

[Bluth54]

We need to start pressing gaming journalists to be more open en taken into account these predatory gambling systems. It's absolutely shameful that they don't represent our best interests and we need their coverage if we want the government to take notice and start passing regulations on these thinly veiled casinos.

SaaS? More like SaaC

Like it or not the US government isn't going to regulate loot boxes. They're the same thing as a trading card game pack or a blind box toy where you always get something for your money even if it's something that's worth less than the money you put into buying it. Trading card packs and blind box toys have been around for decades.

 

[Audioboxer]

That's not bad, 50 laps of Spa or Le Mans should provide a long race. Fans of oval racing might feel otherwise, but fortunately I'm not one of them.

It's the feeling of pressure that you HAVE to go and grind to get some chances at dealing with the loot boxes WITHOUT spending money on them. Everyone knows what a grind for credits something like GT can be, and has been in previous entries. However, EVERYONE was on a level playing field there... until they added MTs (GT6 had them). In Forza you will have MTs AND loot boxes. The later having undisplayed chances/drop rates and being what many now refer to as in-game gambling.

The goal is to create a playing field where those that are willing to spend money have a higher perceived chance of getting legendary/high-end cosmetics/loot before you will be able to with your 100 hours of grinding the same track over and over. If everyone had to do that (grind) to save up for some of the serious end game content, then everyone would feel like they were on a level playing field. When you deal in MTs, loot boxes and booster packs, people feel they are getting left behind if they can't keep up with the rich kids who can afford to be whales and just swipe the card. Or those that can't afford it, but do it anyway getting into debt, and still post on social media/forums at the cool shit they earned spending $200 on keys. Gaming is such a competitive hobby, and we all know how loot boasting/displaying strikes envy and wishes into many gamers minds. It's all about having the latest and best to stand out in the crowd. So much so people buy fucking knife skins for CSGO for hundreds if not thousands of $...

It's all about precise psychology to create perceptions and feelings of inequality, to push peoples minds into thinking I need to pull this lever just a few more times and then I'll have the legendaries my friends/streamers I watch have without all the grinding. Instant gratification, at a cost. In an industry that won't even display the odds of winning the legendary/rare prizes BECAUSE the devs and pubs know they can exploit easier if people didn't know 1~10% chances (if not lower).

It was bad enough in F2P/mobile games. Then it was bad enough when it started infesting $60 MP games. Now we have it finally starting to infest $60 SP games. As I said earlier we started with horse armour, and now we have all of this in paid products.

 

[Kuni]

Horrendous stuff. This combined with the 100gb install / reported 50gb day one patch is just sad to see.

Seems like loot boxes are starting to really spread in particular now. If this is the future path of gaming I fear I may have to look at other hobbies.

 

[angelic]

I think we're reaching the critical mass of these things now, the amount of bad feeling generated can't be going unnoticed.

 

[D'ultimate]

I'm reading that increasing the difficulty increases the payout by a higher percentage. At least that seems to be a change for the better.

 

[Shaneus]

Turn 10 really want the loot box money. It's going to be a few months before microtransactions are introduced. That's been the Forza way for years.

Even VIPs earn fewer credits now. The 100% credit bonus has been replaced with consumable mod cards. You only get 5 which can be used 5 times each.

I need to fire up FM4 again. I'm sure I enjoyed the structure of that more than any of the games since.

 

[xrnzaaas]

I'm reading that increasing the difficulty increases the payout by a higher percentage. At least that seems to be a change for the better.

That depends on how good you are and if you can cope with not winning races. From what I've heard AI is very good on Pro and there's also Unbeatable after that. The good news is that AI is apparently slower during wet races.

 

[angelic]

I need to fire up FM4 again. I'm sure I enjoyed the structure of that more than any of the games since.

"We have an earlier Forza for you"

 

[Toadthemushroom]

Why is it that it’s always the developers discussing loot boxes? I thought it would have been a decision from execs at the publisher? Or are developers incentivised to include these features if they improve revenue?

In reality, I just absolutely hate how this industry is heading with full priced games behaving like F2P mobile games. My line of study is psychology, so I know damn well what these games are doing. This topic/article is worth reading.

Hey, thanks for sharing that PC Gamer piece. I thought it was a good read since they actually had quotes from the designers behind the systems.

Though the second to last paragraph about how the loot boxes are designed to respect the players’ time did feel a touch out of place, considering what came before it and the references to Skinner Boxes.

If loot boxes are balanced to respect the time players put in them, then why are these systems designed to make the players spend so much time playing in the first place? If you’ve long stopped learning anything from the game and you’re mostly playing for rewards and levelling then no, you’re not respecting the player’s time at all. They could have (should have, imo) moved on from your game.

 

[Septimius]

This gambling mechanic has come far enough. It's time to regulate. Seriously.

 

[angelic]

This gambling mechanic has come far enough. It's time to regulate. Seriously.

I agree entirely, the problem is though that the industry has now had a taste for the money, they will not hand it back without a fight.

 

[Septimius]

I agree entirely, the problem is though that the industry has now had a taste for the money, they will not hand it back without a fight.

I disgusts me utterly. Fuck.

 

[angelic]

I disgusts me utterly. Fuck.

Me too, I think the best solution is to hit your backlog until the worst is over.

 

[hamchan]

The whole VIP membership double credits being only 25x consumables instead of a permanent thing just seems so deceitful since they’re changing a system that that has been the same for years without originally making it explicit on their store page.

Like, they can fool me and take my money once for the ultimate edition but they’ve fucked themselves for every future Forza release when I was more than happy to pay for the expensive edition as long as they were putting them out. They’ve soured possible long term profits and goodwill for a short term gain and I’m sure I’m not the only one feeling tricked by this whole thing.

 

[Audioboxer]

Why is it that it’s always the developers discussing loot boxes? I thought it would have been a decision from execs at the publisher? Or are developers incentivised to include these features if they improve revenue?

Some developers are possibly contractually obligated and any changes or removal would be the publishers decision. I don't doubt some of the requests of the devs if the publishers are to foot an upfront development cost will be around you need to put MTs and loot boxes in this game.

Other developers will do it just to chase the income, there's no point in pretending this is always solely on the publishers to keep the image of every dev angelic. It's not just Blizzard, EA, Activision, Valve and WB doing all this these days.

None of them are doing anything illegal, we're just commentating it sucks in these otherwise great games that a shit load of money from sales can't be enough. There has to be an almost obsessive desire to crap F2P mechanics into everything these days. It makes your own product worse some times and what ever happened to trying to prioritise still having passion for the product first before only chasing money? Some devs still do it that way! They're becoming rarer though it seems. As the industry accepts new "standardised" practices "everyone" wants to jump on the bandwagon.

Although in saying that if we can push for regulation it may be illegal one day not to have drop rates listed. I'd personally like that to become reality.

 

[Hugstable]

They took away earning more credits for using less assists and added shitty loot boxes. ugh, I love this series but I'm gonna be skipping out on this game if this is true

 

[MrCinos]

How long we are away from being banned for cheating (thus avoiding micro transactions) in a single-player game?

 

[AtlAntA]

Jim Sterling isn't going to do them any favours either in the next 24-72 hours. It'll be interesting to see if any other reviewers pay attention or just push out their reviews and say nothing. We have spoken confirmation the in-game currency store is coming, so while prices aren't known yet any WIP reviews can at least mention that before going live.

I wouldn't be surprised it's intentional to not launch the in game currency store before reviewers start their reviews just to try and keep shit like this out of reviews.

 

[JaffeLion]

I still dont get the hate, other than its about an xbox exclusive.. I mean its just cosmetic stuff.. who cares?!

 

[Audioboxer]

How long we are away from being banned for cheating (thus avoiding micro transactions) in a single-player game?

Games do not really have any built-in cheats anymore, as the basic principle of cheats attacks the ability to earn money from MTs, booster packs and what not.

People already face bans for cheating via exploits, as in game bugs/glitches that allow advantages. In MP I often accept this, but in GaaS with even SP gamers being online connected these days some devs are hostile even if you're only glitching/cheating in your SP experience (again because it attacks their MTs/booster packs in SP games).

A game-breaking save bug? Patched in a month. An exploit for EXP/gold/power/level skipping? Patched in 48 hours.

I wouldn't be surprised it's intentional to not launch the in game currency store before reviewers start their reviews just to try and keep shit like this out of reviews.

It definitely is. This isn't the first Foza game ever released. They know how to build an in-game storefront. Other devs do it too. Keeping in-game stores disabled for preview builds/review copies.

If Metacritic allowed review scores to be changed it would somewhat alleviate devs/pubs exploiting the nature of day 1 reviews chasing clicks. Although I think some journalists even adhere to "we do not change review scores".

 

[guybrushfreeman]

I still dont get the hate, other than its about an xbox exclusive.. I mean its just cosmetic stuff.. who cares?!

......please read the OP before posting. No one is talking about cosmetics

 

[Steroyd]

I still dont get the hate, other than its about an xbox exclusive.. I mean its just cosmetic stuff.. who cares?!

Except it doesn't look to be just cosmetic stuff, it looks like they changed what was once a method a earning in-game currency faster (taking assists off) and replaced it with lootbox mods (Hence the title of the thread saying "pay to earn").

 

[Scuffed]

At this point I just want publishers to push the line until it blows up in their faces.

Go on, give a reason for lawmakers to hunt you dowm. Do it.

This right here. I'm not sure lawmakers will even be needed I think we are getting to a breaking point where consumers will push back and make these companies change, I hope. I don't think the "it's just cosmetic" defense really works anymore either. When all the cool skin are pay-walled unless I play thousands of hours then whats the point? Skins are just as important to the experience as gameplay imo.

 

[xrnzaaas]

I still dont get the hate, other than its about an xbox exclusive.. I mean its just cosmetic stuff.. who cares?!

Can't tell if you're joking or not. Even the driver gear isn't 100% cosmetic stuff, because you "need" it if you want to earn achievements and challenges from the Forza Rewards loyalty program (and the higher your tier the more credits you get on a weekly basis).

 

[GHG]

Like it or not the US government isn't going to regulate loot boxes. They're the same thing as a trading card game pack or a blind box toy where you always get something for your money even if it's something that's worth less than the money you put into buying it. Trading card packs and blind box toys have been around for decades.

The difference is that with physical goods loot boxes (or trading cards etc) you end up with goods that have some sort of resell value, even if it's just a few pennies.

What the fuck is someone going to do with hundreds of these unwamted mods or cosmetics that you get in game loot boxes these days?

I have difficulty seeing them as equivalent.

 

[Synth]

Well, I'm out for now. I'll definitely end up picking the game up again at some point, but don't really feel comfortable paying full price for it as though all is okay.

There's plenty of FH3 left to play meanwhile. Maybe give them time to figure all this out.

 

[Audioboxer]

The difference is that with physical goods loot boxes (or trading cards etc) you end up with goods that have some sort of resell value, even if it's just a few pennies.

What the fuck is someone going to do with hundreds of these unwamted mods or cosmetics that you get in game loot boxes these days?

I have difficulty seeing them as equivalent.

Well, Valve graciously gave gaming the real money trade house. So you can sell your junk for pennies, and also sell the good shit for hundreds of $. Hooray. As you only need to check Google and dodgy websites to see what kind of black market they've spawned around TF2/CSGO and other titles. The CSGO skin gambling mess was, unfortunately, "lost" in court and TmarTn and ProSyndicate walk free of exploiting children. Justice! Valve didn't do jack shit about that either till the fear of the lawsuit came calling.

Blizzard gave us the real money auction house in Diablo 3, whilst tuning the game so that legendaries were rarer than winning the lottery. The AH got nuked, but, one of my big bets is it's coming back at some point. Probably in the next Diablo game. Blizzard will be buying 50 extra yachts per top manager/shareholder for the bank they're making on Overwatch loot boxes, so you're damn right Diablo 4 will need to be better monetized to be acceptable to corporate.

So we should thank these corporate overlords for giving monetary value to digital goods and letting some people make a decent bit of money off them. Right? Well, depends on whether or not you like the economies and shady practices these outlets produce just so that the devs/publishers can skim some more money off user to user transactions, like eBay. That's pretty much what Bethesdas paid for mods does as well.

Everything in this industry is about squeezing out extra money wherever possible, even if it totally impacts on the gameplay and balance of a game. Gamers have almost in unison tossed "cosmetics" to the dogs whilst they fall over themselves to say "but but but my favourite dev just fucking railroads cosmetics as MTs/loot boxes/etc, THIS IS GOOD IN THIS INDUSTRY!". At one point in the past lots of cosmetics used to be earned in-game in reasonable ways as a way for gamers to feel unique and have fun. Now they're just non-stop $$$.

 

[MouldyK]

Can't tell if you're joking or not. Even the driver gear isn't 100% cosmetic stuff, because you "need" it if you want to earn achievements and challenges from the Forza Rewards loyalty program (and the higher your tier the more credits you get on a weekly basis).

Jokes on them! Turn 10 fucked up and gave me 6 of each Driver Gear! So look who is at 80/100 Driver Gear!

The Reward Site already says I got 100/100 Unlocked!

 

[xrnzaaas]

Jokes on them! Turn 10 fucked up and gave me 6 of each Driver Gear! So look who is at 80/100 Driver Gear!

The Reward Site already says I got 100/100 Unlocked!

Nice, I will probably stay with the default one, because I feel like not choosing the (discounted) cars or credits upon level up is a wasted opportunity. And I intend to avoid loot crates altogether.

But yeah, it kinda sucks that in Forza Rewards they count towards two different challenges, not only the achievements one.

 

[MouldyK]

Nice, I will probably stay with the default one, because I feel like not choosing the (discounted) cars or credits upon level up is a wasted opportunity. And I intend to avoid loot crates altogether.

But yeah, it kinda sucks that in Forza Rewards they count towards two different challenges, not only the achievements one.

Yeah, I’m choosing the cars even though I’m still Level 10. Discounted Cars with more money off than the 40,000cr money. Plus they give me Car Points or whatever that is.

 

[Tovarisc]

Talk about chickens coming home to roost with this and Shadow of War.

"Who gives flying shit about gambling boxes in games? They are only cosmetics...."

 

[Audioboxer]

Talk about chickens coming home to roost with this and Shadow of War.

"Who gives flying shit about gambling boxes in games? They are only cosmetics...."

If anyone missed it Jim gave that another look a few days ago, whilst we wait on him tackling Forza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igjXK1IAM9I

 

[therealbigrich]

For as bad as most ppl say it is and how gaming has to change I just never see any complaints outside of neogaf or YouTube . Honestly can’t see things getting better anytime soon.

 

[IISANDERII]

In dozens of games they've been there before reviews, so no. Overwatch and Destiny most recently for AAA games.

Overwatch offers skins(and spray, voice lines and icons) and Destiny 2 got a 6/10 from one of the very few reviewers who are actually trusted.

 

[GHG]

For as bad as most ppl say it is and how gaming has to change I just never see any complaints outside of neogaf or YouTube . Honestly can’t see things getting better anytime soon.

Have a look on twitter, Reddit and Forzas own official forums. In particular look at the replies to Dan Greenawalt's latest tweet.

This move has pissed off a lot of long term fans of the series.

 

[MouldyK]

Wait...if you Quit Race (want to restart)...you lose your consumable Mods?!

 

[GHG]

Wait...if you Quit Race (want to restart)...you lose your consumable Mods?!

Suddenly the reason why you can't restart anymore makes sense...

(Unless someone has found a way to be able to)

 

[MouldyK]

Suddenly the reason why you can't restart anymore makes sense...

(Unless someone has found a way to be able to)

All I wanted to do was restart and lower AI to Average as I can’t control this Muscle Car with my wheel...so instead I had to stick with Above Average with my controller with Full Racing Line.


Great Game...so many questionable choices.

 

[D'ultimate]

Wait...if you Quit Race (want to restart)...you lose your consumable Mods?!

Please tell me this is not true. If it is I'm out. See you next year with GWG.

 

[JABEE]

Let's stop pretending these practices have anything to do with the costs for publishers. No other industry gets this kind of pass from the press for this kind of practice.

Lootboxes and microtransactions change the design of games and cannot simply be ignored by no playing them.

They exist as a means of publishers yielding $100s of dollars from a percentage of purchasers at the expense of game design.

They get off-the-hook for this stuff because the people who hold these publishers accountable are okay with playing their review copies with these features unlocked or eased by codes. They have a beer with the guy designing the game who knows this is what the company wants.

These kinds of design decisions are made with the intent of milking whales first. They exist to exploit the insecurities of their players just like any narcotic.

Publishers can prey on children as well without any moral baggage or public outrage. There is no press outrage outside of a few people.

It's too damaging to the publisher's business model to mention this kind of thing in a review. Praising competent games in spite of these mechanisms.

 

[Audioboxer]

Let's stop pretending these practices have anything to do with the costs for publishers. No other industry gets this kind of pass from the press for this kind of practice.

Lootboxes and microtransactions change the design of games and cannot simply be ignored by no playing them.

They exist as a means of publishers yielding $100s of dollars from a percentage of purchasers at the expense of game design.

They get off-the-hook for this stuff because the people who hold these publishers accountable are okay with playing their review copies with these features unlocked or eased by codes. They have a beer with the guy designing the game who knows this is what the company wants.

These kinds of design decisions are made with the intent of milking whales first. They exist to exploit the mental insecurities of their players just like any narcotic.

Publishers can prey on children as well without any moral baggage or public outrage. There is no press outrage outside of a few people.

It's too damaging to the publisher's business model to mention this kind of thing in a review. Praising competent games in spite of these mechanisms.

Review sites and blogs have long hand dubious relationships with publishers. Some of them anyway. Watch this video by Jim about 2K going after TheSixthAxis for taking a stand on NBA 2K18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeZB8z1vQ2w

Jim explains how he was blacklisted by a few places, and even had Bethesda emailing him over a 7/10 score for... Rage.

Journalists worry about their relationship with the people who send them review copies. It's a hostile relationship when eyes are constantly on you for the reviews you give their products. Hence why they turn off MTs/loot box shite for reviewers, to try and force it not to be in reviews. Then any places that do bring it up and deduct points because of it, are probably put on an internal shitlist before a blacklist would be considered. They don't blacklist too easily, but you can be sure pressure will be exerted wherever they can attempt it.

The corporate side of this whole industry is just a minefield of fuckery.

 

[CaptainClaw]

I don't get these devs/pubs I swear, you want to leave the franchise with a bad taste in peoples mouths over some lootcrates?...Forza 6 and FH3 were highly respected and put the series in good terms all for them to fuck that up.

Everyone tweet Phil and Dan about how this is unacceptable...flood their tl

 

[Gaenor]

I hope Forza Horizon 4 doesn't have those. Who am I kidding ...

 

[Hugstable]

Have a look on twitter, Reddit and Forzas own official forums. In particular look at the replies to Dan Greenawalt's latest tweet.

This move has pissed off a lot of long term fans of the series.

Oh I believe it. Just seems to shady to go this route. I bought my Xbox One for Forza games (and rare replay lol) and had planned to look into Forza 7 after I finish Yakuza 0, but all this has just completely turned me off, and I've played every Forza game except 4

Wait...if you Quit Race (want to restart)...you lose your consumable Mods?!

ugh.

Please Turn10, please change this shit

 

[MouldyK]

Forza 6 and FH3 were highly respected and put the series in good terms all for them to fuck that up.

That’s what I don’t understand. FM6 had questionable practices...but they weren’t overall bad and we even told them it was terrible...

...so why did they make it worse? Is it because the game would have been too similar to F6 so they thought “Let’s change things up!”???

Also, it would help if the pause menu told you what Mods you had...or even when it says Consumable Mods will perish...tell me what ones will go?!

It’s pretty Anti-Consumer.

Please tell me this is not true. If it is I'm out. See you next year with GWG.

ugh.

Please Turn10, please change this shit

Again, I’m not sure if all will go or just certain ones...game won’t tell me!

 

[Momentary]

Just really started playing the game and noticed that you don't get extra bonuses for making the settings harder or more realistic. So now you have to use loot cards for this? You have to spend your in game credits to buy mods instead of using it to buy cars and race gear. Wow... How hard is it to refund this game?

VIP reward is a stupid as consumable card too... Wow. They tricked people into buying the bh idle for VIP priveleges without even divulging how the situation was going to be. This loot box mod thing was never even mentioned in interviews or previews.