(Ars Technica) Loot boxes have reached a new low with Forza 7s pay to earn option
- Thread starter Toadthemushroom
- Start date
Its why I find it disturbing how EA and Ultimate Team are just allowed in this day and age and no-one bats an eye at it.
Can anyone tell me if Ultimate Team is fair?
D'ultimate
Member
None of them should go! Same as last year. You should have the option to restart the race just like they've done in the entire series.
That's one thing that isn't actually true according to Reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/forza/comments/73bddh/psa_it_appears_that_if_you_fulfil_your_mod/
Everything is though!
D'ultimate
Member
That's a relief.
GHG
Member
Call support and explain what's happened regarding the VIP stuff especially and they should refund you.
Yes!
Also, knowing Jim Sterling will talk about this games loot boxes dont really help much because we all know he isnt a lifelong Forza Fan like some of us.
I mean, the Loot Boxes are terrible, yes...but there is so much more wrong with the whole system that I dont think he will cover.
- Prize Wheel Gone,
- Restart/Mod Confusion. (Thanks for that Redditor for taking one for the team).
- VIP Consumables.
- Choice of Discount, Money or Gear.
- Gear Locked away behind Boxes.
- Cars Locked Away behind Boxes, Forzathon.
- Assists no longer granting CR Bonus (I use most assists on easiest AI anyway, so I got less stake in this than most but I respect it).
Plus Jim will shit on the money aspect when the monetary aspect aint what I hate the most about this. Its the fact that even throwing money at the Loot System wont fix what they broke.
He'll likely use this as an example to get the point across that devs/pubs make lootbox's look attractive by a reduction in features to previous games, I'll be surprised if he doesn't talk about this psychological aspect when he does his eventual "but they're cosmetic " Jimquisition.
Hold on, everything Ive seen online is he is utterly scathing of this sort of thing in paid for games, cosmetic or not.
R_thanatos
Member
The old system was a simple risk/reward system that rewarded skills.
This system is just a way to for everyone to pay if they don't want to waste time
Valve lets people trade and sell their loot box items. Given the economies that have sprung up around TF2/CSGO/DOTA2 it's kinda surprising that more games don't allow trading.
But really trading card packs and blind boxes are the closest real life equivalent to loot boxes since digital items exist in a different way than physical items.
They still have that out as you get no cash in return. It's preying on people like gambling, no doubt which I think is abhorrent, kids are people manipulated as well as adults, it's moulding them into addicts. The lack of visible odds is probably the first avenue regulators need to jump on. The EU needs to get the ball rolling, that's the only ones I have much hope of doing anything.
Audioboxer
Member
Valve and Blizzard with their millions and armies of lawyers will probably be hard to overturn.
I can't believe how disappointed I feel right now. 
I spent some time just reading through everything, watching some videos, etc.
I... can't support this. Not in its current state. I was only on the periphery of Forza 5 (didn't have an XB1 at the time), but this sounds worse. This was *the* racing game I was most looking forward to this year, and now this system in place is what's going to make me sit on the sidelines and wait.
Just contacted Microsoft, and they refunded me with no fuss. Very smooth process. They must be aware of this for there not to be any pushback. I remember FH3 on PC being a nightmare trying to refund.
I do still have lots left to do in Forza 6 and Horizon 3, I guess, so maybe this was in some ways a blessing in disguise.
Still really bummed about it though.
I spent some time just reading through everything, watching some videos, etc.
I... can't support this. Not in its current state. I was only on the periphery of Forza 5 (didn't have an XB1 at the time), but this sounds worse. This was *the* racing game I was most looking forward to this year, and now this system in place is what's going to make me sit on the sidelines and wait.
Just contacted Microsoft, and they refunded me with no fuss. Very smooth process. They must be aware of this for there not to be any pushback. I remember FH3 on PC being a nightmare trying to refund.
I do still have lots left to do in Forza 6 and Horizon 3, I guess, so maybe this was in some ways a blessing in disguise.
Still really bummed about it though.
funkystudent
Member
I kinda hope Need 4 Speed is decent this year
Between Forzo tossing out a decade of good ideas for micro transaction bullshit and GT Sport kinda just looking like a $40 console launch game but 4 years LTTP and $60 its not looking like a good year for the big racers
Between Forzo tossing out a decade of good ideas for micro transaction bullshit and GT Sport kinda just looking like a $40 console launch game but 4 years LTTP and $60 its not looking like a good year for the big racers
guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
I dont believe a single person here actually thinks the old system punished casuals. What utter nonsense. Not one of these mythical casuals are on record of complaining about being able to turn off assists to get extra credits. Its not a thing that has ever happened.
If you have to stoop to being so dishonest to defend something you need to ask yourself why youre defending it in the first place
If you have to stoop to being so dishonest to defend something you need to ask yourself why youre defending it in the first place
Im a Casual who plays with most assists on and can confirm that theres nothing to complain about.
Fox Mulder
Member
"We have an earlier Forza for you"
Which is fine. FM5 and FM6 still work, I've got all three Horizon games on my xb1 too. I don't need to play a fucked up micro transaction Forza.
You know, I can totally understand why someone could live with these microtransactions and loot boxes. I mean I do. Only in free games, but still.
But I wouldn't have an issue with these microtransactions getting dropped, the loot boxes disappearing, them being forcing to display the odds etc etc
Living with shit is one thing. Opposing shit getting better is being a fanboy, or worse, an addict.
But I wouldn't have an issue with these microtransactions getting dropped, the loot boxes disappearing, them being forcing to display the odds etc etc
Living with shit is one thing. Opposing shit getting better is being a fanboy, or worse, an addict.
Sarcastic Poster
Member
Yep. Shut these fucking shit practices down.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
This is my "'casuals' are now being conflated with 'sucks at playing'" and "Gen 7 took rewards out from behind skill walls, Gen 8 is putting them behind pay walls" hard truths in one handy-dandy package.
What really rubs it in re: the bolded, is that it's not like money from MTs and lootboxes is actually being reinvested in devs/IP. Instead you have publishers routinely shut down studios, abandon beloved IP and consolidate all effort back into their cash cows. Then some defenders turn around and say "well clearly the money from a $60 purchase isn't enough!"
Don't misunderstand his Jimquisition is going refute those who dismiss MT's/lootboxes with the "but it's only cosmetic" defence, he's hinted at covering this topic eventually.
Audioboxer
Member
That is because everything needs to be earning COD/FIFA/Overwatch/Destiny money. Hence why SP games are getting infested with F2P mechanics.
The one thing Sony does okay for everything they do wrong is accept some games won't make as much money, but to have a diverse portfolio it's worth paying for them.
Shuhei
Sony still close studios they shouldn't. Studio Liverpool was a sore one. The Last Guardian was an absolute nightmare, any other studio would have shitcanned that years ago, and you can bet it won't make them any money. Still, we finally got it and while it's polarizing it was worth the wait.
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
Are there in-game ads yet or do those usually get patched in post-launch too?
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1422984
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1422984
wapplew
Member
FUT is not fair. But you can trade your card in market place, in a way you can buy everything you want with in game currency.
Evil Monkey DTT
Banned
I'll be honest loot boxes decrease my hype on any game around 60 percent or more. Games I would have been super into I just don't want anymore. I should have been all over shadow of war because I loved the last games ideas but I'm rooting against the game. I'm not boycotting all games with microtranactions but buying any game with them feels gross.
Also if you have a ps4 get gt sport, unless it's pulling the same shit. Project cars looks great too.
Also if you have a ps4 get gt sport, unless it's pulling the same shit. Project cars looks great too.
GHG
Member
No. Not at all. The community who built it wouldn't stand for this shit.
Just because you are privileged enough to not need driving aids doesn't mean you are more deserving of more credits than someone who has not put in the time and hard work to get good.
What are you, pro-capitalist? Check your privilege.
Mainstream gaming has got so far up itself of the last couple of years that its fast reaching a point of lunacy. It needs to decide very quickly if it wants to be an entertainment platform for all and to to take a smaller slice of a much larger pie, or if it wants to continue going after larger and larger pieces of a a shrinking pie - catering only to those few whales who are either caught in an addicting trap or have enough disposable income to really not care about the increasing costs. Whilst others are chased off by increasing costs and the now ubiquitous availability of all-you-can eat services like Netflix as a much lower entry cost.
Personally 2017 has been pretty much the time when reached my limit with the huge mega franchises/devs/big 2 consoles .
I'm tired of the Deluxe/Gold/Premium edition/Day One nonsense that adds nothing to the game but 'quick start' bonuses etc at ludicrous prices
I'm tired of micro transactions impacting games economies and I'm tired of micro transactions being thrust in my face when I've literally just paid full price for a title.
I'm tired of day one messes that take weeks/months to resolve.
I'm tired of vertical slice demos that end up looking nothing like the finished product.
I'm tired of the toxicity that has surrounded games for the last few years and added a fresh stigma so soon after the 'nerd' stigma had finally been cast off.
I'm tired of 100gb installs and patches.
I'm tired of the idea of 'games as a service' rather than a finished article charged for at a reasonable price.
I'm tired of multiplayer being forced into traditionally single-player genres because developers have decided that every game now needs a long-tail instead of cutting their cloth an budgeting accordingly.
I'm more than happy to pay for a good entertainment, and I'm happy to pay for extra content that is worthy of the name. When you look at something like Witcher 3, XCOM2 & hopefully the upcoming Breath of the Wild story DLC and see the value in true expansion packs you know that there are developers that are not just after the quick-win/quick-buck but put care and passion into their releases and are earning anything additional that I choose to pay so I will support those developers with my time and money.
Gaming on the Switch this year has been refreshing and I've realised that it's because (at present) it is missing all the annoyances that I've listed above. If you'd have asked me two years ago if my main platform would be a Nintendo I'd have laughed but now it just feels like a comfortable place to be. I buy a game, I put it in the system and I play a game. I don't have multi-gig patches taking all my bandwidth and storage. I'm not greeted by a storefront asking my to buy points/DLC for the title before I've even played it. I don't have a bunch of spam messages from 'woman who want to chat' and I don't have to wait an age for the UI to become responsive as it logs onto the net and grabs the latest adverts for the store etc and if I play online I don't have kids telling my how my mother is in bed if you have the temerity to actually play the game instead of letting the little trolls do what they want.
Yes, there will always be exceptions to rule of every platform, but I'm speaking in generalisations rather than specific examples (including the Forza Series) and this may have been the straw that broke the camels back as the last couple of weeks have seen some pretty egregious examples of greed in full-priced titles.
That turned into a much larger rant than I was expecting, but feels nice to get it off my chest.
Personally 2017 has been pretty much the time when reached my limit with the huge mega franchises/devs/big 2 consoles .
I'm tired of the Deluxe/Gold/Premium edition/Day One nonsense that adds nothing to the game but 'quick start' bonuses etc at ludicrous prices
I'm tired of micro transactions impacting games economies and I'm tired of micro transactions being thrust in my face when I've literally just paid full price for a title.
I'm tired of day one messes that take weeks/months to resolve.
I'm tired of vertical slice demos that end up looking nothing like the finished product.
I'm tired of the toxicity that has surrounded games for the last few years and added a fresh stigma so soon after the 'nerd' stigma had finally been cast off.
I'm tired of 100gb installs and patches.
I'm tired of the idea of 'games as a service' rather than a finished article charged for at a reasonable price.
I'm tired of multiplayer being forced into traditionally single-player genres because developers have decided that every game now needs a long-tail instead of cutting their cloth an budgeting accordingly.
I'm more than happy to pay for a good entertainment, and I'm happy to pay for extra content that is worthy of the name. When you look at something like Witcher 3, XCOM2 & hopefully the upcoming Breath of the Wild story DLC and see the value in true expansion packs you know that there are developers that are not just after the quick-win/quick-buck but put care and passion into their releases and are earning anything additional that I choose to pay so I will support those developers with my time and money.
Gaming on the Switch this year has been refreshing and I've realised that it's because (at present) it is missing all the annoyances that I've listed above. If you'd have asked me two years ago if my main platform would be a Nintendo I'd have laughed but now it just feels like a comfortable place to be. I buy a game, I put it in the system and I play a game. I don't have multi-gig patches taking all my bandwidth and storage. I'm not greeted by a storefront asking my to buy points/DLC for the title before I've even played it. I don't have a bunch of spam messages from 'woman who want to chat' and I don't have to wait an age for the UI to become responsive as it logs onto the net and grabs the latest adverts for the store etc and if I play online I don't have kids telling my how my mother is in bed if you have the temerity to actually play the game instead of letting the little trolls do what they want.
Yes, there will always be exceptions to rule of every platform, but I'm speaking in generalisations rather than specific examples (including the Forza Series) and this may have been the straw that broke the camels back as the last couple of weeks have seen some pretty egregious examples of greed in full-priced titles.
That turned into a much larger rant than I was expecting, but feels nice to get it off my chest.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
What the hell? Are you joking?
Rewards for better performance in games isnt exactly a new thing.
Edit:
Yeah, definitely a joke.
I think that post broke your sarcasm detector.
I do actually kinda think it did, and I've just refunded my copy of the game. I have no problems with giving players incentives to challenge themselves... but I also don't think there's pretty much any way of doing so without negatively impacting anyone who chooses not to on the flipside. It doesn't matter if on screen it shows +50% for skill, or -33% for a lack of, the reality is that both these values are simultaneously true.
Like I said, I don't have a problem with how Forza was doing things previously, and I don't think the average casual player did either, but whether or not they care isn't the same argument as the relation between reward and punishment.
It's the changes to the progression, gear locked behind lootboxes and the VIP bait-and-switch that I have an issue with. Not lesser players not requiring more time to unlock stuff.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Yeah - it was oscillating quite rapidly between sarcasm and outrage.
Luckily the previous 3 Forza games were all quite good. I don't see any need to fund Turn10's later bullshit. I think developers take customers for granted. Realize there are 6 previous versions of Forza sitting in the bargain bins Turn10. The world certainly doesn't need Forza 7 if you want to fuck it all up.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
Maybe Turn10 feel under pressure to pull in as much revenue as Forza Horizon 3 did. So they resort to these underhand tactics.
Kids buy this shit.
Was in line yesterday for a SNES mini and it was FIFA18 launch day so the line was rammed with like 14 year olds and I saw at least 3 get those ultimate team points on top of the £50 game.
So when you're all wondering how publishers do this and how it's getting worse, people actually buy them.
I don't see how this stops tbh. I personally just swear off any game with MTs and it's doing great, there are plenty of other games to play, new games and old ones that have passed me by.
Was in line yesterday for a SNES mini and it was FIFA18 launch day so the line was rammed with like 14 year olds and I saw at least 3 get those ultimate team points on top of the £50 game.
So when you're all wondering how publishers do this and how it's getting worse, people actually buy them.
I don't see how this stops tbh. I personally just swear off any game with MTs and it's doing great, there are plenty of other games to play, new games and old ones that have passed me by.
Audioboxer
Member
Could not have said better myself.
I could list multiple recent so called "success" stories from other major publishers that took as long - or longer to develop than TLG - with team-sizes orders of magnitude larger. So no - "any other studio" don't necessarily get shit-canned years ago - they very often get more money poured into them.Audioboxer said:
Very good, thanks
Crayon
Member
As far as the whole industry goes: there are tons and tons of games that don't do this shit. Even in this mainstream-sim niche, there's a few different games to choose from and they are more dignified about the microtransactions. So there is a choice.
I have played so many excellent new games this year and not a one of them has had a loot box or a commercial during the play session. I don't want to damn the industry as a whole. Games are really good these days. The volume, quality, variety, and pricing of games are all about as good as ever these days.
In all likelihood this model could work out well for the forzas, nbas, and destinys of the world. Consider that the creep of post purchase monetization has occurred mostly in harmony with the rise of ambitious Indies and mid tier games, your occasional horizon or Zelda and the resurrection of abandoned genres. Maybe a rising tide lifts all boats and microtransactions are one little part of a landscape that looks pretty healthy on the whole.
I can see being pissed off if your old favorite series turns on you tho.
I have played so many excellent new games this year and not a one of them has had a loot box or a commercial during the play session. I don't want to damn the industry as a whole. Games are really good these days. The volume, quality, variety, and pricing of games are all about as good as ever these days.
In all likelihood this model could work out well for the forzas, nbas, and destinys of the world. Consider that the creep of post purchase monetization has occurred mostly in harmony with the rise of ambitious Indies and mid tier games, your occasional horizon or Zelda and the resurrection of abandoned genres. Maybe a rising tide lifts all boats and microtransactions are one little part of a landscape that looks pretty healthy on the whole.
I can see being pissed off if your old favorite series turns on you tho.
Audioboxer
Member
I was being a bit facetious. In saying that MS wouldn't have greenlit TLG in the first place, let alone bankrolled it's development for 10 years. Scalebound got booted the fuck out quite quickly. Although it did seem in some real trouble.
I know there are other examples, it's just the so called AA market has been on life support for a while. The kind of games that still manage to look visually impressive and have a sense of scale, but do not cost as much as AAA development. TLG is one of those PS2 era games. AA started dying out heavily in the PS3 and 360 era.
When you know, Square, Capcom and Konami and others started saying everything needs to sell 5m copies. Surprisingly we got Nier from Square, and then that series was dead as can be till it's miraculous revival.
Still, the main point is risk taking in the AA or even AAA market is still on life support. Indie devs still continue to blur the lines, but it's still nice to see games come out that get a bit more money than your average indie game, but not the pressures of AAA development. You know, the pressures that have your publisher and higher ups screaming that loot boxes need to go into SP games, there's to be 5 special editions, a pre-order season pass, MTs, dodgy pre-order exclusives with gamestop or some sort of other sad marketing. Augment your pre-order? Yeah, fuck off Square.
When yearly sports titles are as infested as FIFA and NBA 2K18 are, is it any surprise why TLG would be a hard sell at many places these days? Good luck putting MTs and loot boxes into TLG. I'm sure EA, Activision/Blizzard or Turn 10 could find a way. I'm still generally surprised Bethesda haven't gone loot box crazy, but their pet project for now seems to be paid for mods. And porting Skyrim to alarm clocks.