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[Audioboxer]

Some?lol

Check out any overwatch thread, people tripping over themselves to buy tons of lootboxes.

Speaking of Overwatch, incoming window of a few weeks where the loot boxes drop Halloween skins. Yes, IRL Halloween is a "timed event", but it's at times like this where the push to earn money from loot boxes is on overdrive. HAY GAMERZ CHECK THESE RARE LIMITED SKINZ! DON'T MISS OUT! GET DA LOOT BOXES NOW!

Now, I've never argued I want loot boxes banned, that's just ridiculous. In any game that has the ability for real money to be exchanged for currency/keys that can go towards an RNG box it should be regulated better. Drop rates should be mandatory for being on display. Look at how Blizzard had a bitchfit when China strongarmed them, so much so they found a way to skirt around China's law. All of that just to hide the drop rates in the box. That really tells you something about transparency and honesty. Find me one developer/publisher that transparently shows the drop rates for their loot boxes....

I've speculated it may well be the case drop rates are lowered around special events, and as its server side, that may well happen. We would be none the wiser! I have no evidence/proof of this, but it's this industry we're in, it wouldn't surprise me if it were so. We want more money or too many people seem to be getting good shit? Drop those figures 1~2%. There we go, more keys/virtual currency being bought, and we've got them in panic mode at 2 weeks to try and get all the Halloween skins *boardroom laugh* *boardroom buys new yachts*

 

[Irminsul]

Random loot was in almost every game ever. You kill a monster it drop item randomly, you want specific drop, you farm specific monster over and over.
Diablo was famous for fat loot, in fact, Diablo 3 have loot boxes after you finish certain objective.
Modern game design just repackaged random loot into boxes and let you buy them with universal currency.
You still do what you do in video game, killing monster, do objective, they give you currency instead of loot drop directly, it give you option to buy the the random box that contain the item you want.
I call it modernized streamlined loot system.

What's "streamlined" about having one extra step? And one extra step, obviously, that makes sure you get a lot less than without it?

 

[jokkir]

In a way, the exact same thing is happening with Metroid: Samus Returns / Nintendo.

Unlocking a difficulty and art gallery ? Buy an amiibo (four if you want the complete galleries). Remember when you could unlock Hypermode in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption ? Complete the game on Hard. Don't buy an amiibo.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Hard Mode unlocked after beating the game? Fusion mode is another hard mode with the fusion suit. At least the hard mode option was unlocked and I had to scan the amiibo to unlock fusion mode

 

[Feeroper]

Was just listening about this on Player One Podcast as well and this is all super disheartening to hear. They described it as lootboxes being "everywhere".

This year it seems a lot of publishers have taken that "next step" and started to put things of actual consequence behind not only microtransactions but loot boxes. It's infesting at an alarming rate to say the least where actual game design is being affected at it's core to support them.

And... I'm not sure what can be done. Certainly I'm going to now try and avoid games that have these systems in single player games \ campaigns. It's the only thing I can do but I dunno if it'll have a big effect... seems like people are much more amenable to buying these than previous nonsense like online passes.

If this keeps up and the console gaming sector becomes like mobile games I may have to just move on altogether. I love gaming but man... not like this.

I completely agree - this is very much that frog in the cook pot scenario that has been brought up before - with the publishers/developers turning up the heat gradually. An alarming amount of people are okay with this type of system, but this leads no where good.

As you noted, console gaming is starting to show signs of the mobile gaming world, and like you, I love gaming, but to me this isn't what I want. If this is where we go ultimately I wont be able to follow it.

However all that said, it is certainly encouraging to see indie games flourishing without this level of nonsense. Some great indie games that are more and more bringing me back to the glory days of having the whole game with my purchase. My hope is that the current AAA model will go away with time to be supplanted by the gems coming out of the indie world. I feel like indies have been overlooked for a long while but have been gathering up strength and have the ability to turn the tide - look at games like Hellblade for example, or the current deluge of amazing titles the Switch is seeing currently with Steamworld Dig 2 & Golf Story.

 

[thumb]

What's your solution to increased budgets and game dev time due to increased complexity of games in general on top of higher asset quality? Or the fact that a lot of games with lootboxes are straight up free to play.

You're not asking me, but for free to play games, I have less of a problem with tons of microtransactions, but strongly dislike randomized paid rewards. Most of Warframe's monetization is a better model, IMO.

For rising development costs, my solution is for games to cost more on average. And my argument would be that this solution has already been implemented: big budget games almost always have high priced special editions now, which likely have larger margins. I enjoy some special editions, and I welcome things like art books, maps, posters, etc. Basically, the average selling price, including these special editions, should be higher than $60, at least initially.

 

[LoveCake]

But how will this ever stop? Reviewers stepping up and lowering scores on full-priced games with Microtransactions? Hmm, maybe that might make a dent but it's so unlikely to occur it's almost not worth mentioning.

The real stopping force would be people not buying the game, and also somehow communicating that they AREN'T buying the game because of these shit practices. And I'm ashamed to say there's some Microtransaction apologists on GAF, but even for us fighting the good fight, I don't think it's enough.

I posted this in the other thread.



What can we do as a community? not just here on GAF but the other sites like Reddit for example, if all us gamers unite together for a common course the industry will at least have to listen?


Some sort of combined movement, via social media, email, letters, phone calls, actual boycotts of company's and games?

 

[Barakov]

Sterling is absolutely right about this. No reason for lootboxes to be in Forza 7. Like. At. All.

It's making it really easy to ignore some games. EA's Battlefront 2 is another one that comes to mind. Especially since it seems like the loot boxes give in game advantages.

 

[dreamfall]

Sterling continuing the good fight. Games this year have been especially egregious on the loot box front. I’m going to skip Shadow of War depending on how it shakes out, and I made this mistake of going with the UE of Forza 7 after the Amazon price glitch. The fact that some of the legendary cars are locked behind loot boxes is scummy as hell. The prize crates for vehicles just feels like the system has been designed to take your money. Thank god for some of those reddit glitches - massive grinds for levels, but at least they give XP and car discounts at a rapid pace. The VIP benefit is lost, the tweaks not adding to credits feels off and truthfully, I’m amazed they haven’t started charging for color customization. That’s where we are headed.

 

[KimonoNoNo]

Sterling continuing the good fight. Games this year have been especially egregious on the loot box front. I’m going to skip Shadow of War depending on how it shakes out, and I made this mistake of going with the UE of Forza 7 after the Amazon price glitch. The fact that some of the legendary cars are locked behind loot boxes is scummy as hell. The prize crates for vehicles just feels like the system has been designed to take your money. Thank god for some of those reddit glitches - massive grinds for levels, but at least they give XP and car discounts at a rapid pace. The VIP benefit is lost, the tweaks not adding to credits feels off and truthfully, I’m amazed they haven’t started charging for color customization. That’s where we are headed.

This year the industry has decided now is a good time to turn up the heat; Now let's see how many frogs jump out of the pot.

 

[Salty Rice]

We all know Microsoft didnt delay Crackdown because it looks like shit but because they wanna add some delicious Crack Boxes.

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

Sterling is absolutely right about this. No reason for lootboxes to be in Forza 7. Like. At. All.

Yep or any full price game for that matter.

Microtransactions are bad enough but loot boxes are even worse, basically gambling with money for something random in game, it's total bollocks.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Can't listen to this guy since he tried to convince us sonic 4 would be good and that the ones complaining were wankers

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Audioboxer]

Gamesradar review of Forza 7

Saving up your boosted credits for an expensive Prize Crate is exciting, even if you often spend 300,000 credits only to win a helmet, some mod cards and a crappy car. But that just makes the real big wins all the more exquisite.

Exciting and exquisite.

We've already lost. Turn 10 will use those quotes on the GOTY edition to describe the loot boxes.

 

[Maintenance]

Gamesradar review of Forza 7

Saving up your boosted credits for an expensive Prize Crate is exciting, even if you often spend 300,000 credits only to win a helmet, some mod cards and a crappy car. But that just makes the real big wins all the more exquisite.

Exciting and exquisite.

We've already lost. Turn 10 will use those quotes on the GOTY edition to describe the loot boxes.

What the fuck is that quote, stockholm in full effect.

 

[Zertez]

Gamesradar review of Forza 7



Exciting and exquisite.

We've already lost. Turn 10 will use those quotes on the GOTY edition to describe the loot boxes.

Sounds like what a gambling addict would say.

 

[the_darkness]

Not really in just don't think one persons opinion is any sort of definitive answer.

So do you race into every single thread about an opinion in a rush to post how worthless it is?

 

[LastGamer84]

What the fuck is that quote, stockholm in full effect.

Mainstream outlets will not bite the hand that feeds them. Funny enough it will drive them further into irrelevance because their target audience is getting fed up.

The rise of the youtube critic came about because these outlets became increasingly untrustworthy. And then Youtube channels did the same thing (the bad ones anyways).

 

[Audioboxer]

What the fuck is that quote, stockholm in full effect.

Reviewer was pretty neutral to them days ago in this article

You should focus on the best prize crates, with the highest chance of winning something awesome.

http://www.gamesradar.com/how-to-progress-fast-and-get-the-best-cars-in-forza-motorsport-7/

Turn 10 be like "everyone please keep calling it a prize crate".

Progression in Forza 7 isn't exactly straightforward, with a few different barriers to progression. None can be instantly bypassed, so here's how to progress to higher race tiers and get the best cars in Forza 7 fastest.

Yeah, like some cars exclusive to loot boxes....

The writer is entitled to their own feelings on it all, of course, but it shows the disconnect between most reviewers and some gamers. Hardly anyone other than Jim Sterling or Arstechnica has raised a bit of fuss about the VIP bait/switch, everything being built around loot boxes and the statement admitting paid for currency is coming, but it's TBA to skip the review period.

I think Jeff Gerstmann might have had one tweet hinting at slight frustration.

 

[newtypepilot]

this is what gaming has become. Buy a full priced game, then pay more to skip progress or to get lootboxes. AAA gambling alright.

People are so used to this bullshit that they think this is the norm now. Well, it's not.

LOL that gamesradar review. Microsoft sure paid them well.

 

[GametimeUK]

I may sound like a hypocrite, but I'm not. Sure this based on my personal taste, but Forza's implementation of loot boxes and Overwatch for example are worlds apart in my opinion. At the end of the day it's gambling for skins in Overwatch and that does leave me a bit salty, but in a selfish way since I don't care for cosmetics and since they don't really impact the games actual balance... I think for me personally that is better (for me) than paying for DLC maps and characters that they have released. There's at least some sort of trade off. A way it benefits me.

Forza just piles on the BS and strips the game of actual features whilst messing with the balance of the game.

For me personally Overwatch having loot boxes and getting free maps and characters is better than having no loot boxes and paying for map packs and character packs. Forza just doesn't offer me anything compelling for adding these features in.

Yes Overwatch is a gateway to these shitty practices and you may think it's shitty yourself... but hey l, there's still levels this stuff.

 

[Yarbskoo]

Goddam lootboxes. Leave it to the games industry to find a way to make fucking microtransactions even worse somehow.

 

[Brandon F]

Well shit. Been waiting for mainline Forza to arrive on PC for a couple years now since the Cross-Buy announcement and I am met with this nonsense.

I nearly bought the Ult edition too, but thanks to being busy, I held off and waited. I really love the limitations on races to drive some variety and challenge, but as part of loot crates rewards? Interest nosedived.

 

[watership]

this is what gaming has become. Buy a full priced game, then pay more to skip progress or to get lootboxes. AAA gambling alright. People are so used to this bullshit that they think this is the norm now. Well, it's not.

The amount of money it brings in, I don't know how you stop it. I'd like to see numbers of how much a game with loot boxes makes in real money purchases. I think the number being revealed would terrify people and realize that cell phone games pay to win has corrupted the industry.

LOL that gamesradar review. Microsoft sure paid them well.

By all accounts it's one of the best Forza games so far, so I don't think these are unusual reviews.

 

[Audioboxer]

I may sound like a hypocrite, but I'm not. Sure this based on my personal taste, but Forza's implementation of loot boxes and Overwatch for example are worlds apart in my opinion. At the end of the day it's gambling for skins in Overwatch and that does leave me a bit salty, but in a selfish way since I don't care for cosmetics and since they don't really impact the games actual balance... I think for me personally that is better (for me) than paying for DLC maps and characters that they have released. There's at least some sort of trade off. A way it benefits me.

Forza just piles on the BS and strips the game of actual features whilst messing with the balance of the game.

For me personally Overwatch having loot boxes and getting free maps and characters is better than having no loot boxes and paying for map packs and character packs. Forza just doesn't offer me anything compelling for adding these features in.

Yes Overwatch is a gateway to these shitty practices and you may think it's shitty yourself... but hey l, there's still levels this stuff.

As I went a bit angry gamer mode on Overwatch above, I will clarify a bit. MP games that promise continued support/content as patches I'm at least willing to entertain an argument for something cosmetic. Nothing that is power/gameplay based, all of that can fuck off. It's still not 100% needed, other devs even in 2017 can still manage to sell you a game and then provide updates with no season pass or loot boxes. Destiny 2 has introduced loot boxes, changed a game mechanic AND still has a season pass. That is bullshit. Loot boxes in SP games are also bullshit.

As above with Overwatch all I want to see come to it is regulation in this industry which demands drop rates are shown on ANY RNG based product that the game allows you to buy some sort of key or currency for. I'm not bothered about Diablo drop rates from enemies, or any other game like that. As long as there is no MT or currency purchasable for an RNG chance. Blizzard got around the China drop rates regulation, so regulation here would need to be more precise. That itself is scummy though, bypassing the system in China, so Blizzard still get a head shake from me. These companies are desperate to hide their shitty drop rates from gamers.

 

[FIREKNIGHT2029]

It’s this type of fuckery that makes me hate the modern AAA gaming environment.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

The fact that a reviewer is supporting this, no, going so far as to advocate this disgusting practice just goes to show who's side he/she is on.

The act of winning or completing a race/championship leads to a prize. Not a roll of a dice where you might happen to win the respective prize. The exhilaration is in winning the race, not winning the dice roll.

T10 and MS are getting a lot of backfire from this and rightfully so, as its a blatant insult to anyone who's played video games before.

 

[Neuromancer]

http://store.steampowered.com/app/402880/Age_of_Barbarian_Extended_Cut/

Double you tee eff!!!

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

Remember when Horizon: Zero Dawn came out and it had the perfect set up for loot boxes and still didn't use them? It's fucking horrendous that it stands out in an industry that could have forced them in anyway, just because.

Loot boxes are shit. Publishers need to make a choice - full priced game with none of this crap or free to play with this crap.

And it's been slowly building and building towards it with the introduction of microtransactions and the defence that "it's only cosmetic" and people defending it and it all led to this. Cosmetic items used to be included in games, you could change your outfits and skins for free.

How do we all feel about the Horse Armour in Oblivion now?

If they want to keep doing it, I'll either not buy their game or buy their game second hand and never, ever buy their virtual currency and gambling boxes.

 

[Audioboxer]

Remember when Horizon: Zero Dawn came out and it had the perfect set up for loot boxes and still didn't use them? It's fucking horrendous that it stands out in an industry that could have forced them in anyway, just because.

Loot boxes are shit. Publishers need to make a choice - full priced game with none of this crap or free to play with this crap.

And it's been slowly building and building towards it with the introduction of microtransactions and the defence that "it's only cosmetic" and people defending it and it all led to this. Cosmetic items used to be included in games, you could change your outfits and skins for free.

How do we all feel about the Horse Armour in Oblivion now?

If they want to keep doing it, I'll either not buy their game or buy their game second hand and never, ever buy their virtual currency and gambling boxes.

Well, paid mods have arrived in Fallout... TES is next.

 

[magawolaz]

Gamesradar review of Forza 7



Exciting and exquisite.

We've already lost. Turn 10 will use those quotes on the GOTY edition to describe the loot boxes.

what the fuck

 

[Kuni]

I completely agree - this is very much that frog in the cook pot scenario that has been brought up before - with the publishers/developers turning up the heat gradually. An alarming amount of people are okay with this type of system, but this leads no where good.

As you noted, console gaming is starting to show signs of the mobile gaming world, and like you, I love gaming, but to me this isn't what I want. If this is where we go ultimately I wont be able to follow it.

However all that said, it is certainly encouraging to see indie games flourishing without this level of nonsense. Some great indie games that are more and more bringing me back to the glory days of having the whole game with my purchase. My hope is that the current AAA model will go away with time to be supplanted by the gems coming out of the indie world. I feel like indies have been overlooked for a long while but have been gathering up strength and have the ability to turn the tide - look at games like Hellblade for example, or the current deluge of amazing titles the Switch is seeing currently with Steamworld Dig 2 & Golf Story.

I'm with ya my man. My hope too is that they'll always be gems that don't nickle and dime the customer. I also hope that the market pushes back once microtransactions get even worse and it all rebounds but I dunno.

Heck, push comes to shove maybe I'll be one of those old folks playing the olde classic games and telling the young un's about how back in mah day you paid one price for a game and got to enjoy it all at your own leisure.

 

[Yarbskoo]

How do we all feel about the Horse Armour in Oblivion now?

Remember when people used to get upset about on-disc DLC?

Good times...

 

[Rellik]

Sounds like what a gambling addict would say.

You don't need to be an addict to think that about gambling. I love sports betting and can see why the reviewer thinks that, but the difference there is I can actually make real money with a free account in real betting while this numpty is getting a hard on over gambling with fake worthless winnings in his $60 game.

The VIP bait and switch should be talked about too. I think that's even worse than the loot boxes.

 

[Narpas Sword0]

My man Phil Spencer making things happen for the gamers!

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

Gamesradar review of Forza 7



Exciting and exquisite.

We've already lost. Turn 10 will use those quotes on the GOTY edition to describe the loot boxes.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

Remember when people used to get upset about on-disc DLC?

Good times...

From
"Ugh, it's just an unlock key, why do I have to pay to unlock content I already own?"
to
"Ugh, it's a loot box, I hope I get the item I actually want before I have to grind or buy more loot boxes to get a chance at getting the item I actually want?"

I remember when games were just complete and, if you were lucky, you got an awesome expansion pack.

 

[Maintenance]

How do we all feel about the Horse Armour in Oblivion now?

Hell, I miss DLC already. Rocket League is a recent example of this, if I wanted a car I would go to the store and buy the DLC. Now it is behind a shitty economy system with crates, keys and loot boxes.

I reckon that in 5-10 years people will miss loot boxes the same way, as something way more nefarious starts to gain traction. It's all downhill from here.

 

[Crayon]

Gamesradar review of Forza 7



Exciting and exquisite.

We've already lost. Turn 10 will use those quotes on the GOTY edition to describe the loot boxes.

Well that's something else.

 

[Yukinari]

Hell, I miss DLC already. Rocket League is a recent example of this, if I wanted a car I would go to the store and buy the DLC. Now it is behind a shitty economy system with crates, keys and loot boxes.

I reckon that in 5-10 years people will miss loot boxes the same way, as something way more nefarious starts to gain traction. It's all downhill from here.

The next evolution from loot boxes is having to pay for the loot box itself, then paying to have a higher chance at a specific item you want in the box.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

We're not gonna make it are we? Gamers i mean.

 

[Nyoro SF]

I'm glad Jim is keeping this nonsense in the spotlight. He gets a huge of views and I always enjoy watching him broadcast this bullshit to the public view.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

Hell, I miss DLC already. Rocket League is a recent example of this, if I wanted a car I would go to the store and buy the DLC. Now it is behind a shitty economy system with crates, keys and loot boxes.

I reckon that in 5-10 years people will miss loot boxes the same way, as something way more nefarious starts to gain traction. It's all downhill from here.

You can only unlock items based on loot boxes, that can only be unlocked by keys that can only be obtained by collecting different metal ores which can only be collected from rocks you earn in game.

There's a 1/3 chance of the rock containing ore.
There are 15 different ores and the ore and box must match.
When converting to keys there's a 1/5 chance of the conversion working other wise the ore is wasted.
When you have a key and box of the same ore, there's still a 1/10 chance of the key breaking and a 1/10 chance of the key not fitting the lock and needing a different box.

This will allow you to unlock a random item or items.

Or you can just buy the boxes and keys or the ore or the rocks using our "BS" currency. We're giving you options.

 

[Crossing Eden]

You're not asking me, but for free to play games, I have less of a problem with tons of microtransactions, but strongly dislike randomized paid rewards. Most of Warframe's monetization is a better model, IMO.

For rising development costs, my solution is for games to cost more on average. And my argument would be that this solution has already been implemented: big budget games almost always have high priced special editions now, which likely have larger margins. I enjoy some special editions, and I welcome things like art books, maps, posters, etc. Basically, the average selling price, including these special editions, should be higher than $60, at least initially.

Good luck getting the gaming community on board with that. :|

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

We're not gonna make it are we? Gamers i mean.

If its some condolence I don't see Forza 7 or Shadow of Mordor selling especially well.

 

[Stone Ocean]

For rising development costs, my solution is for games to cost more on average. And my argument would be that this solution has already been implemented: big budget games almost always have high priced special editions now, which likely have larger margins. I enjoy some special editions, and I welcome things like art books, maps, posters, etc. Basically, the average selling price, including these special editions, should be higher than $60, at least initially.

Or you know, more sensible and flexible budgets so games don't need to sell 5 million copies to break even.

This is a hole the AAA industry has dug itself into and they can either crawl out on their own or keep digging until they can't get out anymore.

 

[Audioboxer]

The next evolution from loot boxes is having to pay for the loot box itself, then paying to have a higher chance at a specific item you want in the box.

We're going to have SP franchises dragged through the mud first which is why I'm getting frustrated. I'm a big SP gamer, and while I enjoy loot games like Diablo, I do not enjoy what begins to happen in game design and planning when loot boxes arrive and the goal is to do enough with game balance to encourage spending.

NBA 2K18 is an example of how to completely sicken anyone playing that game, even if you're completely ignoring MP. Shadow of Mordor will be up for examination come release.

Overall though, sure, the more these boxes are normalised the more devs and pubs will continue to push boundaries and see what they can get away with. Before we know it people will actually think they're playing F2P games forgetting they actually paid $60 for whatever game it is they're playing.

 

[Maintenance]

If its some condolence I don't see Forza 7 or Shadow of Mordor selling especially well.

Forza I don't know but I see Shadow selling a lot, the last one did well too I think.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

Or you know, more sensible and flexible budgets so games don't need to sell 5 million copies to break even.

This is a hole the AAA industry has dug itself into and they can either crawl out on their own or keep digging until they can't get out anymore.

Seriously, nobody asked publishers to start spending hundreds of millions of dollars on games all of a sudden. They are the ones that wanted this, its a manufactured crisis.

 

[NoPiece]

What's your solution to increased budgets and game dev time due to increased complexity of games in general on top of higher asset quality? Or the fact that a lot of games with lootboxes are straight up free to play.

Cosmetic only loot boxes, or keep your game free to play people know they are getting a skinner box.

 

[MrS]

I remember feeling like this was how this was going to go years back. I feared that content was going to be cut to be turned into microtransactions but people just dismissed it with a tinfoil hat comment or thought it was going to be bigger content but as he says in the video this isn't some theoretical debate any longer. We have extensive evidence of features that used to be free unlockables in games (cosmetic items, cheat codes, game modes) now being tied to microtransactions as well as having a negative effect on the balance of the game. If it wasn't insidious enough some of it is now being tied to a chance at acquiring rather than just paying for what you want. This hobby has gone to shit with scummy practices. I am glad that there are a lot of games out currently that don't engage in this trash as I have been able to avoid this but I know the day is going to come where my favorite series is plagued by this garbage and while I am unwavering on this I am going to have to get a new favorite series. But most won't so thanks to everyone involved in supporting/providing shitty practices.

You know shit's fucked up when Tekken Bowl is paid DLC.