Grinchy
Banned
I feel like 60fps on PS2 was more common than 60fps on PS3.
Rumour: PS5 Devkits have released (UPDATE 25th April : 7nm chips moving to mass production)
- Thread starter bitbydeath
- Start date
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Nope.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Not even 1%.
Caio
Member
I still see a Nov 2020 release date; 2019 will be the year of some of the best PS4 exclusive games; also, it takes some time to develop games for a new console, so if the 1st devkits start to be released now, it will take at least 2 years or more to have some good games available for Launch.
About the specs, I'm still dreaming for a GPU with 20TF, and the "micro GPU" concept to make it possible.
About the specs, I'm still dreaming for a GPU with 20TF, and the "micro GPU" concept to make it possible.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
For various reasons I agree that late 2020 is very possible but everything I have seen so far indicates late 2019 and all the main things outside of Sony's and Microsoft's hands like 7nm maturity, RAM chip availability etc are all falling nicely into place. Also remember that the whole PS5 talk started now almost a year ago with the Pachter article in July last. Matt (a legit dev insider) then commented in the thread to hint/indicate games were already being worked on.
We know from history that for PS4 the one big first party game (KZ:SF) started development after Killzone 3 shipped in March 2011 so the above would be perfectly in-line time wise with a late 2019 launch.
The big difference between PS4 and PS5 this time round because the iterative nature of the x86/PC GPU tech will be they can go much later with dev kits especially for third parties and announce later too if they want. So hearing things later would only be natural.
Grinchy
Banned
I feel like it would be a dumb move. "Hey here's TLoU2 and Days Gone and all our big games that are finally coming out. But, you'd be crazy to buy them this holiday season when they release because we have a PS5 coming out next year that will have remastered versions of all of them!"
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I don't understand this point? What do you mean "they can go much later with dev kits"?
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Because the tech is just Ryzen CPU and Vega/Navi GPU and devs making launch/launch window games can just use a standard PC for much longer before Sony make available their usual dedicated dev kit/test kit combo.
With PS4, devs had to transition from the unique PS3 architecture so needed more time to adjust plus Sony iterated the dev kits over months/1 year plus before final ones and for PS5 I think they may just get away with a single near-final hardware spec dev kit like with PS4 Pro before the mass produced version goes out.
rokkerkory
Member
Exciting times but I think we'll see a tease maybe at GDC later this year at the earliest.
7nm for PS5 is kinda of a done deal otherwise no point in terms of value : performance
7nm for PS5 is kinda of a done deal otherwise no point in terms of value : performance
Dubloon7
Banned
exactly! to be honest i haven't seen any need for the ps4 graphics compared to the PS3 as I have been 100% underwhelmed. I play AAA once in a while but enjoy indies regardless of technically OVERWHELMING BEAUTIFUL GRAPHICS
Caio
Member
Well, it could be late 2019; in this case they would launch at least 1 year before the Next XBox, and this would give Sony a big plus; on the other hand, Microsoft would release a more powerful hardware later on, maintaining the lead in the tech department; that doesn't matter in the selling figures, we know, but I think Sony do not like the idea of MS winning in the tech side too often
again, software and selling figures is what make a console successful, and the main target of a smart Company, so late 2019 could be the launch window.Ok, that's just a thought, could The Last of US 2 and/or Days Gone be either 2019 PS4 games and few months(or weeks) later PS5 Launch Titles, but(of course) in full 4K glory at 60fps(PS5 assets, geometry, lighting, etc) ?!
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
This would be a TERRIBLE idea! And this is why launching in late 2019 is also a terrible idea. Those two games should be released in a year where it's all about the PS4 and its games. When the PS5 comes around the focus should be on new launch PS5 games. Making TLOU2 and Days Gone 4K 60fps should be a secondary thing. It'll be cool, but that shouldn't be a selling point in 2019.
bitbydeath
Member
PSX at the earliest... IMO
This year no chance officially.
But if the system is planned for a holiday 2019 release rumors will get more susbstantial.
I think that they can afford to release in 2020 with a better system and a better lineup but 2019 is asbolutely possible if they want to be first and get a headstart.
In any case the main APU will be manufactured using the 7nm process and RAM will be GDDR6.
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Bernd Lauert
Banned
I still believe in 60 fps. This current gen, getting to 60 fps was a bitch because the CPU was utter trash from the beginning. That won't be a problem with the PS5. At some point, visually you get into high diminishing returns territory and it doesn't make sense to sacrifice frames. It's like comparing ultra vs very high details on pc, where ultra tanks the performance by a lot but looks barely any better.
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octiny
Banned
Most of the horsepower will be going to pushing a standard native 4K with improved visuals @ 30fps. MS will obviously have a 4K standard required on it's next system, with even the 1X already proving just that. The 4K marketing sales push will be huge on these next-gen systems. So SONY will have to follow through as well. That alone makes no room for this 60fps on 90% of PS5 games you talk of.
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Ar¢tos
Member
Optimising a game to run at 60fps is much harder, more time consuming and more expensive (at least for big AAA games), it's not just the graphics, all logic needs to be updated within the same time frame (or should be, for Better results) . With AAA becoming more expensive to produce, I really don't see any big publisher going for 60fps on console games. Graphics sell to the masses, not Framerate. You are setting yourself for a big disappointment.
TLZ
Banned
Then why do we have a ton of games with performance option to choose? They can do exactly the same with PS5 and Xbox 2.
luca_29_bg
Member
We are light years away from that...and no, we can't compare multiplatform pc games with console games, especially exclusive and first party titles. These games will always push graphics, till the last polygon/shader effect/ realistic kind of illumination possible. You can do much more with 30 fps, not only graphics but everything. Again, soon or later people will accept it.
Ar¢tos
Member
How many of those games run at LOCKED 60fps?
On a console if it is not locked 60, then you either have screen tear, judder or increased latency (triple buffer + v-sync), that's why it's an option.
Even if next gen supports freesync, only 1% of players will have tvs that support it, so unlocked frame rates will not be the standard.
bitbydeath
Member
Pushing to 4K shouldn't be a problem next-gen with a 10TF+ GPU, it'll be pushing for extra graphical features which may cost it.
TLZ
Banned
The point is we increasingly have that as an option now, whereas it almost never was the case in the past. So demand is definitely recognized and tended to a lot more. I'm hoping this trend continues with nextgen consoles and have at least 2 options readily available for every game, either locked 30 or locked 60; resolution or performance as they are called now mostly.
Ar¢tos
Member
Demand? lol
There is no demand. Only a bunch of people in gaming forums demand it, and that doesn't even represent 1% of sales. 99% of gamers are uninformed or can't even tell the difference. Publishers make more money with graphics, and money is more important for them than pleasing a tiny percentage of gamers.
LordOfChaos
Member
I find the 60fps discussion tiresome tbh.
Some developers will push visual flair at 30fps no matter what level of console performance they're given. Some have engines tied to framerate they just won't update (more common than some seem to assume, especially for console exclusive devs). A number of them will have been limited by Jaguars per core and aggregate performance and wanted to target 60, but their game was too ambitious for it, those are the type we could see convert on Zen+/2.
We know this. It's beyond doubt. Pages of discussion on it are pretty moot. PS5 will be more tools for a developer to choose to do anything with, as the 4 was, as the 3, was, as the 2, was...
I do however hope all of the next gen consoles have Freesync, which could largely further moot this discussion and encourage unlocked engines.
Some developers will push visual flair at 30fps no matter what level of console performance they're given. Some have engines tied to framerate they just won't update (more common than some seem to assume, especially for console exclusive devs). A number of them will have been limited by Jaguars per core and aggregate performance and wanted to target 60, but their game was too ambitious for it, those are the type we could see convert on Zen+/2.
We know this. It's beyond doubt. Pages of discussion on it are pretty moot. PS5 will be more tools for a developer to choose to do anything with, as the 4 was, as the 3, was, as the 2, was...
I do however hope all of the next gen consoles have Freesync, which could largely further moot this discussion and encourage unlocked engines.
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Samsung announced in January they had started mass production of GDDR6
https://news.samsung.com/global/sam...6-gigabit-gddr6-for-advanced-graphics-systems
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Look at the previous replies....! I informed ColdToffee about Samsung's mass production of GDDR6 and also pointed out even Richard at DF didn't seem to know in his last next-gen video.
Lionel Richie
Member
I know what you're going for here, but honestly if the PS5 isn't backwards compatible and they try to push us more remastered versions of everything I'm fucking done with consoles and Sony can suck my balls.
LordOfChaos
Member
That's the best way I see them carrying the momentum. Here's a vastly more powerful console, and everything coming out for the PS4 is better on it, along with its own exclusives.
Still thinking 2020 is perfect though, not short term.
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TLZ
Banned
Well, I don't know where you got these numbers from, but all I care about is what I see actually happening; devs are giving us performance choice and even Sony added a boost mode on system level which clearly mentions framerate. So to me this is a good trend and I hope it continues.
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shpankey
not an idiot
I think the variable framerate syncing of the new hdmi spec will make all of the 30-60 fps arguments moot. We will have a ton of games varying up and down between 33- 50+ fps while being matched to the display perfectly and being buttery smooth.
Anyone who's played w/ gsync/freesync knows already but now it being built into the hdmi spec while also bringing latency improvements and a whole host of other perks make it all irrelevant. Nextgen is when 30/60 fps arguments die. imo
Anyone who's played w/ gsync/freesync knows already but now it being built into the hdmi spec while also bringing latency improvements and a whole host of other perks make it all irrelevant. Nextgen is when 30/60 fps arguments die. imo
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Ar¢tos
Member
Even with mass production of 7nm CPU/GPUs and GDDR6 this year, i don't think it will release in 2019, it would be too expensive, even selling at cost and only with 10Tf.
Production process takes time to mature, then you have other materials+assembly, distribution is a huge costs too and retailers need to have their profit since consoles take display and storage space. Seems impossible to have all that at 399$ without a loss, i don't see Sony selling for 499$ and after the Ps3 i really doubt they will ever sell anything at loss anymore.
Production process takes time to mature, then you have other materials+assembly, distribution is a huge costs too and retailers need to have their profit since consoles take display and storage space. Seems impossible to have all that at 399$ without a loss, i don't see Sony selling for 499$ and after the Ps3 i really doubt they will ever sell anything at loss anymore.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I think they can take the hit if it means that with a PSN+ subscriptions and/or a game they can essentially call it even.
What "arrogant/mean/evil" Sony did with the PS3 is to sell for $499/599 a console that cost them something like $700-800 to manufacture (massive shortages of some components key to the Blu-Ray drive assembly and rushed/expensive partnership with nVIDIA amongst other things).
This is the problem with all the hate directed at Sony for PS3... giving you a lot more value than people were paying for... sure, it could have been designed to work better with third parties, but the value was there and they did save it and make it successful catching up to/beating their competitor who enjoyed 1.5 years alone on the market and all the advantages it brings.
Grinchy
Banned
I'm totally expecting backwards compatibility on top of some games having patches that unlock framerate and increase resolution. It's just obvious that Sony isn't going to reveal the PS5 until it is months away from releasing. They're not going to reveal it 1.5 years before.
LittleAngryDog
Banned
Stop being so pessimistic. I have already said that the PS5 will have something between 14Tflops and 16Tflops and will have 24GB DDR6.
SONY will not launch a console unable to deliver 4K 60fps. Or 4K 30fps + Next Gen graphics...
SONY will not launch a console unable to deliver 4K 60fps. Or 4K 30fps + Next Gen graphics...
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
Much better to think conservative on specs and get more than assume bleeding edge. If they come in below your specs we won't hear the last of it will we!?
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luca_29_bg
Member
LittleAngryDog
Banned
This is what sony needs andshewill do
She or They or it? Teach more english please!!!
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LittleAngryDog
Banned
I will not be disappointed if the specs are lower than I've speculated before. But I hope the console is actually capable of delivering next generation graphics. Otherwise we will only see games in 4k 60fps of the current generation.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Forget specific across board res and frame rates. Doesn't happen now and won't happen going forward IMO outside of the odd racing, Football and FPS games. The PS5, like all previous consoles, will be like Scrappy Doo or a Lotus Elise. Punch above its weight (specs). David to PC's Goliath. The APU will no doubt get customisations as well as AMD roadmap features first as both PS4's did.
LordOfChaos
Member
Like I keep saying, 2020 is perfect, 7nm EUV is a substantial leap over 7nm gen 1, and 2020 gives some time for it to mature.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/11337/samsung-and-tsmc-roadmaps-12-nm-8-nm-and-6-nm-added/2
If they wait for EUV they can better get to the higher end of the 11-15tflop expectation with the power reduction (higher clocks if the four shader engine limit of GCN is still in play).
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I seriously doubt they can wait for EUV as even the foundries don't know exactly when it'll be ready for HVM. Next-gen consoles would have a targeted launch year decided years ago (Cerny has said this about PS4) and so standard 7nm is what I think will be used. I think it likely EUV could be used 18-24 months after PS5 launch as the equivalent of PS4's C-Chassis cost reduced model.
Then after that a proper slim and/or PS5 Pro on 5nm EUV.
Then after that a proper slim and/or PS5 Pro on 5nm EUV.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I think that EUV is still very costly and it will take quite a while longer to ramp up and be practise to use if you do not have the resources and volumes Apple has. I see an optimised 5-7nm EUV lithography for PS5 Pro in say 2022 with PS5 in late 2019.
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Insane Metal
Member
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Are you convinced PS5 will be late 2020 now then? (sorry if I already asked this of you before!)
I can't see how third-party devs having kits early this year if so. Sony just doesn't make them available so early to TP. Matt even said this.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I think you will have an announcement Q1 2019 and release towards the end of the year more or less.
Insane Metal
Member
I've always stated I expect it to be revealed no early than late 2019 for a late 2020 launch.
I could be wrong tho.