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[Armorian]

AMD more than likely will dissapoint again, Navi is rumored to be around Vega performance (it will be mid end in 2019) with better power efficiency - it makes sense since it's designed for PS5. Unless they have some big chip in the oven Nvidia will just destroy them again in performance department.

 

[FranXico]

thelastword in what alternate reality is the xbonex not more powerful than the ps4pro? Why do you focus so much on a few gpu features that made so little difference?

 

[Armorian]

thelastword in what alternate reality is the xbonex not more powerful than the ps4pro? Why do you focus so much on a few gpu features that made so little difference?

Pro has more advanced gpu in GCN family, he is right about that. It's lower clocked, have slower memory at disposal and lacks MS custom stuff (DX12 hardware something but it's to help CPU mainly).

 

[LuvOfThaGame]

Anybody would have told you that coming one year later at $100 more would net you a more powerful system. This is not a trend with MS, its was an expectation,perhaps even an expectation at $400 1 year later, but even that was not reality. All told, a system missing Vega features and lacking in Custom engineering mind you compared to the system released 1 year earlier.

For your knowledge, there has never been a time where MS has launched in the same timeframe as Sony and had better hardware.....even the differences in the PRO vs XBONEX 1 year later at a markup, suggests this as well....


If anything, the opposite happened. Queue some old threads on GAF when there was speculation on PS4's 8GB of Ram, it's the same sentiment you get in this thread by and large. People thought persons were on drugs, it would be impossible et al.....

Look at this conversation now, folk are still imagining current systems and architectures with higher TF counts and basing next gen expectations or lack thereof based on that, so hence their disbelief on how said systems will be cooled etc....In truth, a PS5 in 2020 may even be based on 7nm+ or even 5nm, so a a much reduced power draw on top of new architecture or new hardware cores that offsets how things are traditionally rendered (raytracing is one, maybe even specific hardware for A.I).....

In essence, looking at current Vega AIO powerdraw at 13.7TF does not paint an accurate picture of how powerful or power efficient we can get 18-24TF in 2020 under new architecture at 7nm or 5nm. Things evolve, nodes are getting more compact, coolers are getting much better, processes are getting better. Current Vega architecture should not be used as a measuring stick to tell the future in the face of many evolving technologies.

Even Vega is going through some changes which will improve perf at a much lower powerdraw, Vega 7nm is already a thing and we can expect 20.9TF or more with it this year.....The NUC's in early 2019 will be very powerful on 7nm, so I don't see how persons believe that a PS5 in late 2020 is only going to have 16GB of ram or push only 10-12TF. If Vega 7nm is pushing north of 20+TF this year or early next year, then Navi will push much more than that when it launches....Even a mid gen Navi GPU should be 24TF at minimum in 2020...

360 spanked the ps3 on 99% of 3rd party games and gears judgement was technically the best game during that generation. Xb1x often has a ridiculous advantage in resolution compared to ps4p. Your pr is disproven by the real world the rest of us live in, et al................
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[TLZ]

360 spanked the ps3 on 99% of 3rd party games and gears judgement was technically the best game during that generation. Xb1x often has a ridiculous advantage in resolution compared to ps4p. Your pr is disproven by the real world the rest of us live in, et al................
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Yeah I know. Pro hardly does 540p while X does 4k.

 

[Armorian]

360 spanked the ps3 on 99% of 3rd party games and gears judgement was technically the best game during that generation. Xb1x often has a ridiculous advantage in resolution compared to ps4p. Your pr is disproven by the real world the rest of us live in, et al................
.
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GTA5 is technical leader of 7 gen and ND, SSM and GG games were above any 360 exclusive. You could be right number of games better on 360, PS3 wasn't dev friendly console. I don't know what is has to do with PS5, we know console will use Navi wich is developed for it (and PC space of course), question is how much TF it will have. Xbox Two can be slower, on par or better than PS5 depending on launch date, price and GCN gen they will be using (Vega or Navi), there is no guarantee that it will be more powerful machine unless it's 100$ more expensive or launch year later.

I think any form of hardware RT is out of the question for both consoles unless Navi was developed with it in mind.

 

[LuvOfThaGame]

GTA5 is technical leader of 7 gen and ND, SSM and GG games were above any 360 exclusive. You could be right number of games better on 360, PS3 wasn't dev friendly console. I don't know what is has to do with PS5, we know console will use Navi wich is developed for it (and PC space of course), question is how much TF it will have. Xbox Two can be slower, on par or better than PS5 depending on launch date, price and GCN gen they will be using (Vega or Navi), there is no guarantee that it will be more powerful machine unless it's 100$ more expensive or launch year later.

I think any form of hardware RT is out of the question for both consoles unless Navi was developed with it in mind.

"For your knowledge, there has never been a time where MS has launched in the same timeframe as Sony and had better hardware."-TLW.
Neither does this. Proves it's less about timing and more about focus. Even with a year head start, ps3 couldn't technically overcome the 360.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

12 tf , but what's the power consumption and how much heat it produces?
A console version of any chip is considerably nerfed in comparison to a PC one because of that.

Nvidia has similar performance with less heat issues and lower power consumption on comparable cards in current gen, so it is possible with a different design.

"For your knowledge, there has never been a time where MS has launched in the same timeframe as Sony and had better hardware."-TLW.
Neither does this. Proves it's less about timing and more about focus. Even with a year head start, ps3 couldn't technically overcome the 360.

ps3 did a last minute swap to nvidia. The heavily customized side of the cpu was not surpassed. This time amd won't be a last minute swap, like ps4 it will be a customized gpu with proper dev time.

 

[Armorian]

"For your knowledge, there has never been a time where MS has launched in the same timeframe as Sony and had better hardware."-TLW.
Neither does this. Proves it's less about timing and more about focus. Even with a year head start, ps3 couldn't technically overcome the 360.

PS3 and X360 were completly different consoles and IIRC PS3 was launching later mostly due to BD issues.

Now we 99% know that both consoles will be Ryzen/GCN based machines so only difference comes from clock/number of cores on the GPU (and CPU of course) and RAM speed/size. 2020 console could theoretically get GPU that was not available in 2019 so time can also make a difference but I'm pretty sure both machines will be released in the same year.

 

[Airbus Jr]

360 spanked the ps3 on 99% of 3rd party games and gears judgement was technically the best game during that generation. Xb1x often has a ridiculous advantage in resolution compared to ps4p. Your pr is disproven by the real world the rest of us live in, et al................
.
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360 spanked the PS3 99%?

Xbox One X often has a ridiculous advantage?


I wonder where are you getting these...rather...spectacular.. impression of yours on this subjet

 

[LuvOfThaGame]

Nvidia has similar performance with less heat issues and lower power consumption on comparable cards in current gen, so it is possible with a different design.



ps3 did a last minute swap to nvidia. The heavily customized side of the cpu was not surpassed. This time amd won't be a last minute swap, like ps4 it will be a customized gpu with proper dev time.

Yet, where was the 60 vs 30 fps 3rd party games, or clear advantages at all... during the entire generation? The cell was nothing more than the eSRAM of the previous generation. Alot of "on paper" advantages that never amounted to much.

 

[LuvOfThaGame]

360 spanked the PS3 99%?

Xbox One X often has a ridiculous advantage?


I wonder where are you getting these...rather...spectacular.. impression of yours on this subjet

Yes. The 360 had the Technical advantages in almost all games last gen and the x1x is closest to 4k most of the time verses the ps4p being closest to 1440p most of the time.

 

[Frank Spencer]

If PS5 comes in 2019 I will probably end up waiting until the so called PS5 Pro in 2022???

Either way I'm really hoping for a late 2020 release at the earliest.

But imagine if NextBox hits Spring 2020 and PS5 fall 2020 with E3 in between??!! E3 2020 is going to be very special indeed.....all out war!!

 

[Airbus Jr]

Yes. The 360 had the Technical advantages in almost all games last gen and the x1x is closest to 4k most of the time verses the ps4p being closest to 1440p most of the time.

I see...

But I have seen the ps4pro and xbox one x comparison..and honestly I don't see any huge mind-blowing difference

Perhaps you can enlightened us with these so called "ridiculous advantage" you said?

 

[SonGoku]

360 spanked the ps3 on 99% of 3rd party games and gears judgement was technically the best game during that generation. Xb1x often has a ridiculous advantage in resolution compared to ps4p. Your pr is disproven by the real world the rest of us live in, et al................
.

Unless im missing something, i don't see what's wrong with what tlw said...
He makes a solid point about Sony having a history of releasing the best possible hardware for the time at a marketable price, there are no guarantees as to who will release the most powerful console. The only way i see one having a noticeable edge over the other barring some next level fuckup (PS3/XBONE) is if it releases 1+ year later 100$+ more expensive and that's market suicide. Especially considering we'll be stuck at 7nm for a while

PS3 is a bad comparison since it was an outlier (or fuck up if you will), bluray push addded cost and delayed release, not no mention Sony putting all its chips on CELL, which turned into a disaster: A more expensive console a year later barely more powerful than the 360 with no games to show for it since it was such a paradigm shift in programming, it was only late on the gen that some key multiplatform AAA titles showed a slight edge in favor of PS3

Xbone was a similar situation (TO A LESSER degree) in that ms was pushing kinect/tv hard driving the price up and also limited them to ddr3 ram/SRAM combo (in case higher density gddr5 chips were unavailable) since they needed 8GB for tv/kinect. Which led to slower ram, sram taking up die space resulting in smaller less capable gpu. The APU die space was slightly bigger than PS4s all while being weaker

So yeah barring someone having epic fuck up or releasing 1+ year later/100$+ more expensive, both consoles will be very similar. MS knows the advantage that comes with realeasing first unchallenged for a year and the succes it brought the 360, i don't think they are willing to give sony a year head start

 

[Snake29]

I see...

But I have seen the ps4pro and xbox one x comparison..and honestly I don't see any huge mind-blowing difference

Perhaps you can enlightened us with these so called "ridiculous advantage" you said?

I can see why it's mindblowing for them coming from a 720/900p console....

It's like the Xbox One never exist. It's like they want to forget that era or something. Same shit with the upcoming RDR2, only Xfans are waiting for comparisons so they can feel good about themselves.

They really think that this game will be night and day or something. That's their uncertainty that speaks.

 

[Darius87]

Now we 99% know that both consoles will be Ryzen/GCN based machines so only difference comes from clock/number of cores on the GPU (and CPU of course) and RAM speed/size. 2020 console could theoretically get GPU that was not available in 2019 so time can also make a difference but I'm pretty sure both machines will be released in the same year.

Navi won't be based on GCN cores, it will be totally new architecture because it's not efficient enough for games and will have different name.

 

[RScrewed]

I see...

But I have seen the ps4pro and xbox one x comparison..and honestly I don't see any huge mind-blowing difference

Perhaps you can enlightened us with these so called "ridiculous advantage" you said?

Lol, check it out. I'm gonna do this with math, hopefully that's one of your strong suits (not that I'm counting on it).

1440p : 2560 x 1440 = 3,686,400 pixels
4k : 3840 x 2160 = 8,294,400 pixels

That's 225% more pixels pushes to the screen at once.

It's not surprising, the X1X costs 25% more, but the trade off is that it gives you nearly 200% more in terms of performance, seems like a good deal to me.

That's not to say Sony couldn't put the exact same specc'd machine together and sell it, it's not like Microsoft nor Sony actually makes the internal silicon of their systems, they just realized that's the sweet spot is for how much revenue they can pull from their fanbase. But there's no denying the X1X is more powerful by a margin.

Edit: messed up the maths - poetic justice perhaps.

 

[CuNi]

Outdoor ray tracing using just one RTX6000, 2 years more to trickle down and optimise for a $399 box, granted AMD have something similar..

Not wanting to sound rude or anything, but this demo rather looks like it's 5+ years away from remotely looking good. This Demo not only looked blurry, but even the lightning was super unrealistic IMHO and looked like out of a 2004 Game.
This Demo doesn't do Raytracing any justice.

 

[SonGoku]

Navi won't be based on GCN cores, it will be totally new architecture because it's not efficient enough for games and will have different name.

Wow were did you read this? would be amazing if true
Thought for sure the one after Navi (amd next gen arch) Was gonna be the one to succeed gcn

 

[Darius87]

1440p : 2560 x 1440 = 3,686,400 pixels
4k : 3840 x 2160 = 8,294,400 pixels

That's 225% more pixels pushes to the screen at once.

It's not surprising, the X1X costs 25% more, but the trade off is that it gives you nearly 200% more in terms of performance, seems like a good deal to me.

That's not to say Sony couldn't put the exact same specc'd machine together and sell it, it's not like Microsoft nor Sony actually makes the internal silicon of their systems, they just realized that's the sweet spot is for how much revenue they can pull from their fanbase. But there's no denying the X1X is more powerful by a margin.

There's games which support different resolutions on both platforms so this comparison is inaccurate best way to compare would be by TFlops 4.2 vs 6 is big advantage, but saying it's ridiculous is overstatement.

 

[mckmas8808]

There's no chance it's gonna be around 15Tflops it would require to have GPU at 2GHz clock with 56cu to achieve that even using 7nm that's a chellenge for console, realistically it should be bellow 12Tflops, who thinks it's gonna be above are wishful thinkers.

I know the math history works on your side and not mine. Every year between the Xbox One, Xbox One X, PS4, and PS4 Pro there's been an average of 45% increase in Teraflops per year. And it's been that way for ALL four consoles. And there's no reason to believe the math will change going forward. So that means the PS5 will be between 11.5 and 12 TFs of power giving the math and my over on 12.1 TFs would be wrong. But I'm hoping for a miracle and I don't know why lol. The math history says I will be disappointed.

 

[RScrewed]

There's games which support different resolutions on both platforms so this comparison is inaccurate best way to compare would be by TFlops 4.2 vs 6 is big advantage, but saying it's ridiculous is overstatement.

While that is a flawed comparison (it's likely the games that the X1X reduce level of detail or other things to maintain its resolution and framerate), TFlops is not the "best way" to compare. Pro Tip - once jargon makes its way into marketing, it's usually embellished on its importance.

Flops are floating point calculations that can be performed, it is calculated based on raw numbers alone (cores per socket x clock speed x floating point calculations possible per cycle). That's great and all for GPU processing power but it leaves out memory bandwidth, northbridge interconnects, available memory, on die cpu cache - etc.

To say TFlops is the best comparison would be to say that the best way figure out who the best boxer is is who has the biggest biceps and can curl the most weight.

X1X not only has a GPU TFlop advantage, it has more memory bandwidth, memory in general, and CPU clock cycles. There are lots of little bottlenecks that were opened up and effectively opened the floodgates on performance. Again, not to say Sony couldn't do the exact same thing, they just didn't want to release a $500 console.

 

[LordOfChaos]

We didn't know anything this far out. People earlier on were expecting more than what we got especially on the CPU side iirc. The 8GB GDDR5 was the one real pleasant surprise.

I guess I don't remember what the CPU expectation for the PS4 was two years out, but in retrospect anything but Jaguar was very unlikely if we knew it would go the APU route. At the low clocks it settled with, Bulldozer actually does worse per clock (well, at any clock, if Jaguar could scale further) than Jaguar.

Ryzen on 7nm scaling perfectly to the size of Jaguar on 28nm is an all too perfect fit though.

 

[Airbus Jr]

Lol, check it out. I'm gonna do this with math, hopefully that's one of your strong suits (not that I'm counting on it).

1440p : 2560 x 1440 = 3,686,400 pixels
4k : 3840 x 2160 = 8,294,400 pixels

That's 225% more pixels pushes to the screen at once.

It's not surprising, the X1X costs 25% more, but the trade off is that it gives you nearly 200% more in terms of performance, seems like a good deal to me.

That's not to say Sony couldn't put the exact same specc'd machine together and sell it, it's not like Microsoft nor Sony actually makes the internal silicon of their systems, they just realized that's the sweet spot is for how much revenue they can pull from their fanbase. But there's no denying the X1X is more powerful by a margin.

Edit: messed up the maths - poetic justice perhaps.

Well..well.well..look what we got here.....someone with clever words....

Regardless...

The difference between Xbox one x and ps4pro is just a merely 1-2 Teraflops

It's not exactly night and day difference as you guys try to exagerate

 

[Gold_Loot]

Do people not know how dev kits work? The first round of devkits are never anything close to final hardware.

The first Xbox One dev kits came out 2 years before the Xbox's release and were running off of an Intel i7 cpu.

Dev kits likely mean a 2019/2020 release on 7nm or less on final hardware that is nothing like the hardware in the dev kits. If I were to guess, these dev kits are not on any APU, they pack the most powerful cpu and the most powerful gpu that amd currently makes.

Nextgen wont be about hardware, it will defined by VR.

My dream would be a Vapor Cooled PS5 launching in 3 years using a 3nm Zen 3+ 3Ghz 3x3 core CPU, 30GBs of 3D Stacked HBM3, a 3TB SSHD and 30 TFs of GPU Horsepower.

I want it to launch alongside an optional 4k per each eye with eye tracking, foveated rendering, OLED, 120fps wireless VR headset with a 180 degree FOV along with haptic gloves and haptic underwear for Ready Player One's OASIS levels of gaming immersion and market domination. They could simply buy Pimax since they already have a 8k VR headset with these specs (including a 200 degree fov) in the beta testing phase.

Here is a great article on haptic underwear... https://www.futuristspeaker.com/bus...-when-our-technologies-become-truly-wearable/


Lets include eye tracking (and foveated rendering) as a next gen goal as well

Sir, I like the way you think. Sounds like a dream machine.

 

[Darius87]

Wow were did you read this? would be amazing if true
Thought for sure the one after Navi (amd next gen arch) Was gonna be the one to succeed gcn

I saw somewhere i think it was on DF now i searched again i couldn't find it (maybe not DF), somewhere else, i can't really remember where i watched, it was more then month ago, but what i member is was explaining how GCN works, but i could swear it was DF.

 

[Darius87]

While that is a flawed comparison (it's likely the games that the X1X reduce level of detail or other things to maintain its resolution and framerate), TFlops is not the "best way" to compare. Pro Tip - once jargon makes its way into marketing, it's usually embellished on its importance.

Flops are floating point calculations that can be performed, it is calculated based on raw numbers alone (cores per socket x clock speed x floating point calculations possible per cycle). That's great and all for GPU processing power but it leaves out memory bandwidth, northbridge interconnects, available memory, on die cpu cache - etc.

To say TFlops is the best comparison would be to say that the best way figure out who the best boxer is is who has the biggest biceps and can curl the most weight.

X1X not only has a GPU TFlop advantage, it has more memory bandwidth, memory in general, and CPU clock cycles. There are lots of little bottlenecks that were opened up and effectively opened the floodgates on performance. Again, not to say Sony couldn't do the exact same thing, they just didn't want to release a $500 console.

You state your resolution comparison and now you say that it's flawed don't state it if you don't support your comment, i know that there's more things to compare then Tfops, but it is main measure of GFX performance and better then your pixel calculations, which now you won't believe yourself, PRO also has secret souce.

 

[Snake29]

Well..well.well..look what we got here.....someone with clever words....

Regardless...

The difference between Xbox one x and ps4pro is just a merely 1-2 Teraflops

It's not exactly night and day difference as you guys try to exagerate

They have to justify their purchase anyway. One X has more power, but PS4(Pro) still has the best looking games. Is not only about having the most powerful console, but also what you can do with it. All those comparisons at DF are not really based on the graphics because those are so small between the 2 console. It's always about the resolution.

But having a PS4 Pro hooked up to a 4K tv. No one would see much difference at the end.

 

[RScrewed]

You state your resolution comparison and now you say that it's flawed don't state it if you don't support your comment, i know that there's more things to compare then Tfops, but it is main measure of GFX performance and better then your pixel calculations, which now you won't believe yourself, PRO also has secret souce.

Obviously your last sentence gives you away as just having fun, but I do want to qualify my claim since you made it sound like I won't back up what I say.

It is a flawed comparison because an early 2000s PC could run, say, Half-Life 1 at 1920x1080 with low detail, does that mean that PC is more powerful than an Xbox 360 running Battlefield 3 at 1280x704? No it doesn't. It is flawed to draw any meaningful conclusion based on resolution and pixel pushing power alone. The reason it felt important to state how big of a chasm there were between the running resolution of the X1X and the PS4 Pro in the first place was MonsterKilla's assertion that there was "no big difference between the two", but many would agree a 2 fold increase in resolution for contemporary games is quite the chasm.

If, however, you're of the school of thought that there are no meaningful conclusions to be drawn from resolution, then from pure specs, the more expensive X1X comes with nearly 100 gigabits/sec memory bandwidth, 9 gigs of RAM available to games instead of PS4s 5.5, and a bump in main processing power. To say "there is a 2 teraflop difference and that's the end of that" is really not looking at the big picture.

Not sure what special sauce the Pro has, but it sure isn't additional processing power. Not that all that additional power it makes any of the X1X's games any more fun to play.

 

[bitbydeath]

They have to justify their purchase anyway. One X has more power, but PS4(Pro) still has the best looking games.

That's probably due to the One X requiring the One as the lowest common denominator.

 

[RScrewed]

Well..well.well..look what we got here.....someone with clever words....

Regardless...

The difference between Xbox one x and ps4pro is just a merely 1-2 Teraflops

It's not exactly night and day difference as you guys try to exagerate

Apologies, I'll use stupider words for you.

Since everyone (including you) are hard up about TeraFLOPs, fine, let's use that.

There is a 1.8 TFLOPs difference between the X1X and the PS4 Pro.

The PS3 had a total of 1.8 TFLOPs total.

If you think being able to duct tape a PS3 to a PS4 Pro isn't much of a big deal, then I guess there really isn't any difference.

 

[Airbus Jr]

Apologies, I'll use stupider words for you.

Since everyone (including you) are hard up about TeraFLOPs, fine, let's use that.

There is a 1.8 TFLOPs difference between the X1X and the PS4 Pro.

The PS3 had a total of 1.8 TFLOPs total.

If you think being able to duct tape a PS3 to a PS4 Pro isn't much of a big deal, then I guess there really isn't any difference.

Using derigatory words isnt gona help your cause buddy

maybe next time you should behave yourself, you re not gaining any respect talking like that to anyone around here

This is your first warning

 

[RScrewed]

Using derigatory words isnt gona help your cause buddy

maybe next time you should behave yourself, you re not gaining any respect talking like that to anyone around here

This is your first warning

Did you mean to PM me? This is just embarrassing as a response.

Do you have anything to add to the discussion? Like, did you find the PS4 Pro to be much of a difference than the PS4 non-pro?

 

[SonGoku]

I saw somewhere i think it was on DF now i searched again i couldn't find it (maybe not DF), somewhere else, i can't really remember where i watched, it was more then month ago, but what i member is was explaining how GCN works, but i could swear it was DF.

I mean... it makes sense, personally theorized the same. It would just be great to have some form of official confirmation. Waiting game i guess
With a post GCN arch 13TB+ should be plenty possible on a late 2020 launch, hell even the 15TB pipe dream might become a reality then

 

[Airbus Jr]

Did you mean to PM me? This is just embarrassing as a response.

Do you have anything to add to the discussion? Like, did you find the PS4 Pro to be much of a difference than the PS4 non-pro?

Youre not listening arent you ? your arogant manners arent welcomed here, I think im gona report you on this

 

[RScrewed]

Okay...go ahead. Now do you wish to continue our discussion with the topic at hand and we'll let the mods sort out whatever needs to be sorted out?

 

[Airbus Jr]

Okay...go ahead. Now do you wish to continue our discussion with the topic at hand and we'll let the mods sort out whatever needs to be sorted out?

like i said youre allowed to critic anyone here , but hostile reaction with offensive language like that arent necesarry

you get what im saying ?

 

[RScrewed]

like i said youre allowed to critic anyone here , but hostile reaction with offensive language like that arent necesarry

you get what im saying ?

On the contrary, I don't think you get what I'm saying. If you think I should be reported, go ahead and report me. Now do you have anything to say about the topic?

 

[Bill O'Rights]

Ok, let's just take five here let's not get involved in a tit-for-tat reporting duel where people get warned. We want your passion to come through so let's just dial back the self aggrandising and personal jabs. Just be a bit more respectful towards each other - you're here because you both have a shared enjoyment of games and tech right? Line in sand drawn so back to it

 

[Airbus Jr]

On the contrary, I don't think you get what I'm saying. If you think I should be reported, go ahead and report me. Now do you have anything to say about the topic?

I already said alot about my statement and then you proceed with insults and mockery, . Now do you have anything else to say about the topic ?

 

[SonGoku]

Now do you have anything to say about the topic?

Im not sure what your point is? More expensive console releases a year later its more powerful... How is this news exactly?
Original xbox released a year later while costing more to produce, the gap between it and PS2 was even more impressive but expected, same with xbonex and ps4 pro.

If ms releases a year later while costing more, they would be handing the generation to sony, no way they are giving them the head start advantage, and for what? 2 years with the consolation prize of being the stronguest before PS5 Pro realeases.

 

[RScrewed]

Ok, let's just take five here let's not get involved in a tit-for-tat reporting duel where people get warned. We want your passion to come through so let's just dial back the self aggrandising and personal jabs. Just be a bit more respectful towards each other - you're here because you both have a shared enjoyment of games and tech right? Line in sand drawn so back to it

I can agree to that.

So back on the topic -

It appears I got the numbers wrong the PS3's teraflops, it's not nearly that much. In fact, the PS4 non-pro is about 1.84 teraflops.

So really, the X1X, if using just floating point operations as a metric, is actually more akin to a PS4 + a PS4 Pro duct taped together.

Now, Mr. Killah, if you think there was sufficient reason to prefer the PS4 Pro over the non-pro, and that there is a difference to be experienced between those two, realize that the chasm between the PS4 Pro and non-pro is 2.4 TFlops.

Meaning the 1.8 TFlop difference between the PS4 Pro and the X1X is more than 75% of the difference between the PS4 and the PS4 Pro.

Im not sure what your point is? More expensive console releases a year later its more powerful... How is this news exactly?
Original xbox released a year later while costing more to produce, the gap between it and PS2 was even more impressive but expected, same with xbonex and ps4 pro.

If ms releases a year later while costing more, they would be handing the generation to sony, no way they are giving them the head start advantage, and for what? 2 years with the consolation prize of being the stronguest before PS5 Pro realeases.

My point is that anyone who suggests there is a big difference between the PS4 Pro and the PS4 vanilla but doesn't admit to there being a big difference between the X1X and the PS4 Pro is clearly playing favorites. I did mention earlier none of these parts were made by Sony or Microsoft, and if Sony wanted to, they could absolutely release a $500 console that matches or exceeds the X1X, but it would be nice if everyone saw the situation for what it is rather than clearly letting the team you're rooting for cloud the conclusions you're drawing.

 

[SonGoku]

My point is that anyone who suggests there is a big difference between the PS4 Pro and the PS4 vanilla but doesn't admit to there being a big difference between the X1X and the PS4 Pro is clearly playing favorites. I did mention earlier none of these parts were made by Sony or Microsoft, and if Sony wanted to, they could absolutely release a $500 console that matches or exceeds the X1X, but it would be nice if everyone saw the situation for what it is rather than clearly letting the team you're rooting for cloud the conclusions you're drawing.

Absolutely, I agree or at least feel there is a noticeable difference between pro and X, but to compare it to the gap between base ps4 and pro is a bit too much. We agree on this correct?

 

[RScrewed]

Absolutely, I agree or at least feel there is a noticeable difference between pro and X, but to compare it to the gap between base ps4 and pro is a bit too much. We agree on this correct?

It is a "bit too much" if we're talking TFlops alone, in that case, the X1X to the PS4 Pro gap is 75% the gap between PS4 base and PS4 Pro.

When we consider CPU clockspeed, memory bandwidth, and memory capacity we see this:

PS4 Base > PS4 Pro

CPU: 1.6 Ghz -> 2.1 Ghz : 500 Mhz faster (30% increase)
RAM: 8 GB -> 9 GB : 1 GB more ( 12.5% increase)
Bandwidth: 176 GB/s > 217.6 GB/s (23% increase)

PS4 Pro .> X1X
CPU: 2.1 Ghz -> 2.3 Ghz: 200 Mhz Faster (9 % increase)
RAM: 9 GB -> 12 GB: 3 GB more ( 33% increase)
Bandwidth: 217.6 GB/s -> 326 GB/s (49.8% increase)

In areas that were not bottlenecked by GPU TeraFLOPs, the distance between a PS4 Pro and a X1X is quite bigger than the distance between the PS4 base and PS4 Pro.

 

[Imtjnotu]

As much as I wanted a ps5 I'm

Anybody would have told you that coming one year later at $100 more would net you a more powerful system. This is not a trend with MS, its was an expectation,perhaps even an expectation at $400 1 year later, but even that was not reality. All told, a system missing Vega features and lacking in Custom engineering mind you compared to the system released 1 year earlier.

For your knowledge, there has never been a time where MS has launched in the same timeframe as Sony and had better hardware.....even the differences in the PRO vs XBONEX 1 year later at a markup, suggests this as well....


If anything, the opposite happened. Queue some old threads on GAF when there was speculation on PS4's 8GB of Ram, it's the same sentiment you get in this thread by and large. People thought persons were on drugs, it would be impossible et al.....

Look at this conversation now, folk are still imagining current systems and architectures with higher TF counts and basing next gen expectations or lack thereof based on that, so hence their disbelief on how said systems will be cooled etc....In truth, a PS5 in 2020 may even be based on 7nm+ or even 5nm, so a a much reduced power draw on top of new architecture or new hardware cores that offsets how things are traditionally rendered (raytracing is one, maybe even specific hardware for A.I).....

In essence, looking at current Vega AIO powerdraw at 13.7TF does not paint an accurate picture of how powerful or power efficient we can get 18-24TF in 2020 under new architecture at 7nm or 5nm. Things evolve, nodes are getting more compact, coolers are getting much better, processes are getting better. Current Vega architecture should not be used as a measuring stick to tell the future in the face of many evolving technologies.

Even Vega is going through some changes which will improve perf at a much lower powerdraw, Vega 7nm is already a thing and we can expect 20.9TF or more with it this year.....The NUC's in early 2019 will be very powerful on 7nm, so I don't see how persons believe that a PS5 in late 2020 is only going to have 16GB of ram or push only 10-12TF. If Vega 7nm is pushing north of 20+TF this year or early next year, then Navi will push much more than that when it launches....Even a mid gen Navi GPU should be 24TF at minimum in 2020...

Doesn't Navi and Vega both max out at 64 cu's? Are we expecting a 1500+mhz gpu in the next consoles?

 

[SonGoku]

It is a "bit too much" if we're talking TFlops alone, in that case, the X1X to the PS4 Pro gap is 75% the gap between PS4 base and PS4 Pro.

When we consider CPU clockspeed, memory bandwidth, and memory capacity we see this:
In areas that were not bottlenecked by GPU TeraFLOPs, the distance between a PS4 Pro and a X1X is quite bigger than the distance between the PS4 base and PS4 Pro.

I agree about the ram advantage, which is why X does better than expected looking at TF diferentials alone, still the jump from base to pro is much more apparent, you don't need to look at numbers to tell this

base xbone vs ps4 had similar differences in TF and bandwidth
109 vs 176 GB/s (61% increase)
Devs also commented how they would get more out of the cpu in ps4 thanks to it not having virtualization layers xbone os has

 

[McHuj]

As much as I wanted a ps5 I'm

Doesn't Navi and Vega both max out at 64 cu's? Are we expecting a 1500+mhz gpu in the next consoles?

No one knows about Navi for sure.

The clock is a by product of the process node and the micro-architecture. I'm of the opinion that Vega wasn't fully ready, but was pushed out the door anyway. The performance/watt wasn't as good as it should have been so I think there is plenty of room for improvement there. I wouldn't rule out a 1.5 Ghz clock.

Originally, I wanted something with 15+ teraflops, but after Nvidia's Turing announcement I hope AMD is working on some ray-tracing technology that will make it into next gen consoles. Give me 12 TF, hardware for ray-tracing, and beefy CPU's.

 

[RScrewed]

I agree about the ram advantage, which is why X does better than expected looking at TF diferentials alone, still the jump from base to pro is much more apparent, you don't need to look at numbers to tell this

base xbone vs ps4 had similar differences in TF and bandwidth
109 vs 176 GB/s (61% increase)
Devs also commented how they would get more out of the cpu in ps4 thanks to it not having virtualization layers xbone os has

I think we can attribute the jump from Base to Pro is looking much more apparent because the jump is happening at the lower end of the scale. There is a wall of diminishing returns we'll reach of how good something can be rendered when both consoles are limited by the media they use (It's not like one console can issue a 150 gigabyte game while the other issues a 50 gigabyte game. They basically have the same texture space available).

However both the PS4P and PS4 Base also share the same media, so I submit that equalizes the discussion.

The X1X is 75% the gap of PS4Pro / Base in terms of Teraflops, but a whopping 200% the gap in terms of GPU RAM capacity and bandwidth of their respective gaps of PS4Pro / Base.

So to go back to your earlier point, no I do not agree that it is overall "a bit much" to say the differential between X1X and PS4 Pro is akin to the jump from PS4 Base to Pro. How the devs and multiplat games manifest all this is a different discussion, but in raw calculation it's pretty clear the jumps are comparable and not overkill.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Yet, where was the 60 vs 30 fps 3rd party games, or clear advantages at all... during the entire generation? The cell was nothing more than the eSRAM of the previous generation. Alot of "on paper" advantages that never amounted to much.

There was a lot of stuff done on cell, it helped the gpu in a lot of cases, and working on that hard to program stuff was like bootcamp for sony dev.s, probably helped whittle down less competent programmers who would find it too difficult to work with, while allowing the more brilliant ones to shine with code.

The problem was that not only was cell hard to program for, the nvidia chip lacked unified shaders weighing it down, but there were two memory pools also limiting space and making things harder than should be, iirc.

Lol, check it out. I'm gonna do this with math, hopefully that's one of your strong suits (not that I'm counting on it).

1440p : 2560 x 1440 = 3,686,400 pixels
4k : 3840 x 2160 = 8,294,400 pixels

That's 225% more pixels pushes to the screen at once.

It's not surprising, the X1X costs 25% more, but the trade off is that it gives you nearly 200% more in terms of performance, seems like a good deal to me.

That's not to say Sony couldn't put the exact same specc'd machine together and sell it, it's not like Microsoft nor Sony actually makes the internal silicon of their systems, they just realized that's the sweet spot is for how much revenue they can pull from their fanbase. But there's no denying the X1X is more powerful by a margin.

Edit: messed up the maths - poetic justice perhaps.

One might hypothesize that perhaps comparisons between ultra settings and high to medium settings with barely perceptible results on many titles may have swayed sony to go for a simple checkerboard aided usually mere resolution upgrade solution for a mid gen refresh. Considering one would expect minor work to be done by devs. given two console versions and lower install base of the refresh with incoming next gen within years.

The fact the xbox one x memory and bandwidth advantages allows it to provide additional bells and whistles in addition to resolution, has interestingly enough given notable improvements in graphics due to console optimizations that break the standard ultra high settings modes seen in PC. But it came at the price of higher price, and probably more dev involvement than simple rez increases.

No one knows about Navi for sure.

True, I still hope for MCM on gpu side. But even without that, we all saw nvidia's turing cards with the ray tracing acceleration and tensor ai acceleration. Amd brought unified shaders last time before nvidia. New Features or architectures can easily trump raw performance if the innovation is in the right direction.

As for ray tracing, it is possible that acceleration for simpler global illumination algos might be more feasible with a constrained performance budget, and still deliver something quite similar.