No rendering tech will be the future for all games but one of the biggest games of the last decade is Minecraft so a platform where Volume Rendering is enhanced could be a bigger draw than shiny reflections.
Rumour: PS5 Devkits have released (UPDATE 25th April : 7nm chips moving to mass production)
- Thread starter bitbydeath
- Start date
No rendering tech will be the future for all games but one of the biggest games of the last decade is Minecraft so a platform where Volume Rendering is enhanced could be a bigger draw than shiny reflections.
SoulChamber
Member
To be honest, I don't think that anyone is truly ready for PS5 yet. It feels too soon.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
It's so obvious that it's too soon that I'm surprised that Sony is really being this stupid about it. Or are they going back to taking $100 losses on each console sold again?
GoldenEye98
posts news as their odd job
I think late 2019 presents the best opportunity to release a next gen console that would be considered cutting edge in terms of perf.
Whitecrow
Banned
It may be too soon or not depending on what you are expecting ps5 to be or to do.
What kind of new services can we expect?
How will PS5 handle them?
Will PS5 have the power to be a significant leap from PS4 meanwhile having some secret sauce for the future?
Will it be backwards compatible?
It's not just about power, it's also about the ecosystem.
A new console, with 3x the power of Pro and futureproof, backwards compatible, with more services, apps, and improved functionality of what already exists... why not?
What kind of new services can we expect?
How will PS5 handle them?
Will PS5 have the power to be a significant leap from PS4 meanwhile having some secret sauce for the future?
Will it be backwards compatible?
It's not just about power, it's also about the ecosystem.
A new console, with 3x the power of Pro and futureproof, backwards compatible, with more services, apps, and improved functionality of what already exists... why not?
Dabaus
Banned
Guys, I don't know if it allowed to quote people from snowflake era but a moderator over there more or less confirmed that 2019 "was the plan for ps5 all along." The posters name is Matt, former poster on this forum as well. Ill delete this if its not allowed to mention it.
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UnwrittenZero
Member
Matt works for Sony or something like that he was teasing stuff here before the split.
I think early November 2019 is a good bet. I can see the next COD and Battlefront being launch titles plus one or two PS5 exclusives and ports of Last of Us 2 and Death Stranding. (Maybe Gran Turismo 7) Supply will as usual be super limited so most people will not be able to get one until 2020 anyway. IMO its the perfect time. Maybe we will see a PC and PS5 version of Red Dead then too...
UnwrittenZero
Member
Yeah November is a good bet. Maybe that's why there is no psx this year so far. If they are having a PlayStation meeting in feb to blow it out why do psx in December.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
He worked for a third party and no longer does. Not Sony.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
He's a good dude and usually knows his stuff. But since his job has changed.......is he still as plugged in?
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TLZ
Banned
How can they do that when game development takes longer?
UnwrittenZero
Member
Ah thanks for clearing that up for me.
Insane Metal
Member
I was under the impression he worked for Ubisoft.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Why would they need to take a loss?
SoulChamber
Member
Hopefully not. Otherwise, they'll stand to lose a lot of money for each console sold.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Nah, everything will be fine.
VindicatorZ
Member
I think 2019 is way too soon. You still have one more good year to milk this gen. You have The Last of Us 2, Death Stranding, Days Gone and more still coming. You just released Spiderman, God of War, Detroit Loading Human, and others. No need to rush this. Holiday 2020 just seems perfect. Include better tech, give devs time to make good games for it and take advantage of it. And make it VR ready.
PS5 reveal event early 2020. Release Holiday 2020. That's my call.
PS5 reveal event early 2020. Release Holiday 2020. That's my call.
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Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
Euclideon's demos managed to run even on laptops, think solely on the cpu, iirc. A high core Ryzen alone should help quite a bit. If it can be adapted to use gpu compute it should be able to run even at ridiculous framerate, resolution, and detail levels, if it was truly using a laptop cpu only, from nearly a decade ago.
7 years ago quote
Companies like Euclideon and Atomontage seem to have dealt with many of the issues regards volumetric rendering. Euclideon claimed they could access vast data even from an HDD, solving the memory issues, as the models would run straight from the HDD. SSDs could potentially aid it too.
The thing is people want destructible, physically interactive environments with high levels of detail, and real world physics. The atomontage stuff appears to be able to capture real life footage, potentially with improvements it could handle real world clothing animation, long hair and fur.
It remains to be seen if volumetric is better able to handle large amounts of moving objects, physics and destructibility.
At least from an artist's perspective, it would seem that rather than having to sculpt a model and downscale it, bake details, to run on lower detail for ingame use, the raw sculpts could be directly imported yet run at 4k in high framerate(extrapolating from the statement of unoptimized laptop cpu from nearly a decade ago running it in software from HDD, in HD.).
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I also feel like it's too soon. I don't feel like the market wants a new console like it did in 2013. I think the PS4 has many sales left.
If PS5 releases in 2019 we will see a situation the same as when PS3 released in 2006, where the PS2 went on to sell quite a bit more after PS3 released and in fact outsold PS3 for awhile. This will negatively impact PS5 initial momentum.
I would like to see another $400 box in 2020 or 2021, along with a VR headset priced at $200.
Sony is market leader and is in no need to release another console.
Microsoft should have never released Xbox One X. They instead should have released a completely new Xbox for this holiday season and left Xbox One in the dust where it belongs.
Xbox One X is a jump the gun move, a response to PS4 Pro, something that didn't even need a response to. A me too move thats a year late that didn't change anything in the big picture.
Only way Microsoft can get back in it is to release a true loss leader against the PS5. They will probably do just that.
That being said, I do have a PS4 Pro and there is probably a reason why RDR2 is packaged with a Pro.
If PS5 releases in 2019 we will see a situation the same as when PS3 released in 2006, where the PS2 went on to sell quite a bit more after PS3 released and in fact outsold PS3 for awhile. This will negatively impact PS5 initial momentum.
I would like to see another $400 box in 2020 or 2021, along with a VR headset priced at $200.
Sony is market leader and is in no need to release another console.
Microsoft should have never released Xbox One X. They instead should have released a completely new Xbox for this holiday season and left Xbox One in the dust where it belongs.
Xbox One X is a jump the gun move, a response to PS4 Pro, something that didn't even need a response to. A me too move thats a year late that didn't change anything in the big picture.
Only way Microsoft can get back in it is to release a true loss leader against the PS5. They will probably do just that.
That being said, I do have a PS4 Pro and there is probably a reason why RDR2 is packaged with a Pro.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
Here's the thing sony probably has several models they could choose for depending on price and date. Their developers can quickly whip up a demo and show what difference releasing with higher price or later date specs would make. Unless there's a noticeable difference, they're unlikely to delay past a late 2019-early 2020 release date, imho. It serves two purposes, it keeps playstation brand steam going, and it eats into microsoft's strategy of releasing better hardware. Because people will look at xbox one x, and say, hmm, one more year and they'd have had a ps5. If microsoft released nextgen xbox one year later, the same argument would hold, one more year and they can have the ps5 pro.
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Dontero
Banned
PS4 won't stop selling when PS5 releases.
Secondly people assume it will be normal generation where manufacturers and developers spoke on few occasion they want something more like phone generations.
Why should you make game for one console when you can make game for one API of console and your game will be "released" on every single console released in future. Developers then could make choices if their game will be on PS4+PS5 or just PS5 or PS6.
Indie games on other hand could be released practically on every system.
PC do that forever.
Mobiles already do that.
Why consoles can't ? Especially now when they uses Pc hardware instead of custom hardware.
And with such change they could release handheld which can play for example all PS4 games while PS5 is selling.
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SonGoku
Member
Its not coming 2019 unless all stars align
Some people just like to roleplay they are privy to more information than they actually are.
Not the same, can't compare expensive console development which takes on average 3 years to develop with your average run of the mill mobile shovelware
What's the point of new hw when old hw is holding it back?
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Sprinkled with a hand full of BS PR but yes.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Man then volume rendering is beyond awesome. I can't wait for it to become a "thing". But what was the BS part that you speak of?
demigod
Member
The same people that are saying it's too soon are the ones that will be buying the next xbox when it comes out within 3 years of the 1x release date.
Over selling voxels as 3D atoms & also acting like their engine was ready for gaming when it wasn't.
The Mad Draklor
Member
It's too soon if Sony can't release a reasonably powerful PS5 at a good price. Late 2019 is a good possibility because of the PS5 potentially having BC.
Dontero
Banned
They promised groundbreaking tech for games years ago, never delivered anything with it.
Claimed they resolved issues with it, never showed anything proving they resolved those issues.
REDRZA MWS
Member
Yes but its not like those games that take 3 years wont work on launch, or hardware released 2-3 years later, or the "next gen" consolenas MS has shown with BC.
With more and more people accepting and going digital, the only way that works is if i can take all my content with me as i upgrade. Im all for newer more powerful hardware every 2-3 years.
The BS part was that they managed to make a game engine. They couldn't get the physics part working well enough. Otherwise, the rest works fine.
Their PR speak renamed "voxels" to "3D atoms".
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Man now I'm let down
Hopefully another company that actually knows how to make a game engine can do this. Am I crazy or does some of that volume rendering tech look similiar to DREAMs?
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SonGoku
Member
Volume rendering memory intensive? all the more reason for 32GB memory
Sony and Microsoft shown there's very little market penetration for these refreshes, masses flock once the real next gen starts
Don't worry you will still get your pro refresh, i think...
What's the point of more powerful hw if its being held back by old ass hw, just buy a pc
Sony and Microsoft shown there's very little market penetration for these refreshes, masses flock once the real next gen starts
Don't worry you will still get your pro refresh, i think...
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REDRZA MWS
Member
Because im a console gamer and haven't had, norw needed a pc in well over 10 years. So that said i game on a large screen (yes, i know i can hook up a pc to my tv too), and dont want a large tower nor a mouse and kb.
I pre ordered the iphone xs max, 512 gb, its 1600 retail. I think 400-500 every 3 years or so is good enough to ensure the games i play are looking and performing their best.
This wouldn't be an issue if the console makers were not afraid to go above $399 at launch. Make a beefy console that will last 5-6 years and charge 600 or so at launch, and drop price as time goes.
Man now I'm let down
Hopefully another company that actually knows how to make a game engine can do this. Am I crazy or does some of that volume rendering tech look similiar to DREAMs?
LOL Dreams is Volume Rendering they used Splatting
http://vda.univie.ac.at/Teaching/Vis/14s/LectureNotes/11_direct_volume_rendering.pdf
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Dontero
Banned
Not True
It is Signed Distance Field rendering.
And Dreams is basically only game that uses it right now.
https://kosmonautblog.wordpress.com/2017/05/01/signed-distance-field-rendering-journey-pt-1/
https://www.alanzucconi.com/2016/07/01/signed-distance-functions/
Volumetric Rendering: Signed Distance Functions
This tutorial explains how to create complex 3D shapes inside volumetric shaders. Signed Distance Functions (often referred as Fields) are mathematical tools used to describe geometrical shapes such as sphere, boxes and tori. Compared to traditional 3D models made out of triangles, signed distance functions provide virtually infinite resolution, and are amenable to geometric manipulation. The following animation, from formulanimation tutorial :: making a snail, shows how a snail can be created using simpler shapes:
https://kosmonautblog.wordpress.com/2017/05/01/signed-distance-field-rendering-journey-pt-1/
https://www.alanzucconi.com/2016/07/01/volumetric-rendering/
Volumetric Rendering
This is the first part of a Unity tutorial dedicated to Volumetric Rendering, raymarching and signed distance fields. These techniques allow us to overcome the biggest limitation of modern 3D engines, which only let us render the outer shell of an object. Volumetric rendering enables the creation of realistic materials that interact with light in a complex way, such as fog, smoke, water and glass. Beautifully crafted effects such as NMZ's Plasma Globe (below) would simply be impossible without volumetric rendering.
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mitchman
Gold Member
Sure you can. PC developers have been doing this for years. It requires a different development methodology but it's not black magic to develop for different hardware configurations, you just make sure you can scale both up and down in quality. Even the so-called "mobile shovelware" (which in many cases isn't) does it.
theclaw135
Banned
Having system requirements work that way kind of undermines what console games are about, if you ask me.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
They excused themselves saying they had to do animations, lighting, etc from the ground up for their system. But now they do have games available.
They also seem to have games on mobiles, but those are a bit less impressive, perhaps memory perhaps processing power(not sure what specs are being targeted).
Euclideon can work streaming straight from HDD. Not sure, but perhaps atomontage can too. The algorithms would probably benefit from SSD speeds, but again the problem is SSD prices are capacity limited by price. IF they can cope with HDD speeds, the additional space in HDDs may be of benefit. This is one of the areas where something like cheap high speed HVD Terabyte discs could probably provide quite a good benefit.
Not sure if mentioned but atomontage is making plugins for unreal engine and unity3d, iirc.
I like the high detail level destructible environments possibility, the ability to potentially record real life actors for use as game characters(with all their clothes moving realistically), the ability to avoid pop-in, the high image quality, the advanced level of detail.
A next gen minecraft could be built using such tech, either realistic or stylized.
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mitchman
Gold Member
Perhaps, but console only have X amount of combinations (5-6 PS4/XBox family variations) while PC can have infinite combinations so they _have_ to code dynamically.
Dontero
Banned
There is huge difference between this and voxel based stuff. They have only in common name.
If you read Mediamolecule blog about it you can see how they basically had to redo every single thing just to make game and there is no clear answer if all games can do it.
Like in Minecraft case it might work for them but for almost every other game this could not work as well.
? what are you talking about? Dreams is Volume Rendering
http://advances.realtimerendering.com/s2015/AlexEvans_SIGGRAPH-2015-sml.pdf
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
The technology is extremely versatile and applicable to all games.
Current atomontage demos are running single thread, but highly parallelizable, so vast speed up is possible.
Comment, iirc:
100+fps with around 5 billion voxels and physics on a single thread, regards an older demo.
PS
IMO, I think that potentially the close level detail could one day be produced using a form of intelligent reconstruction, ala DLSS, without having to store a ridiculously higher amount of voxels. This could be done to reduce the existing asset size, or using existing asset size eliminating the pixelization up close.
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SonGoku
Member
I've seen this argument before and it ALWAYS misses the point:
PC games are console ports, the baseline depends on current gen consoles and its raised every new gen. If not for PS4/XBONE PC games would be uprresed PS360 games
Well im with you but the masses want cheap, the masses get cheap
Silver lining here are the midgen refreshes which somewhat meets your expectations
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