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[LordKasual]

But Holy DIDN'T wipe out humanity. At least if you consider Advent Children as canon.

Yes, if you consider it canon, which i don't think this game currently does.

The developers have mentioned things about Crisis Core i think, but they didn't say anything about post-FF7 content being considered canon.

But again.....if you only keep it in the context of the original FF7 (and ONLY the original), then whether or not Holy vaporized humanity was left entirely to interpretation.

Or you know, a future where Midgar is abandoned and reclaimed by nature because people moved on. Which is, the most logical, sensible conclusion. Without Mako to support the infastructure the whole thing would come crashing down eventually, seeing as how the whole city was built around it, makes sense to abandon it within the next 20 years and move on to somewhere else, instead of attempting to retrofit the entire city for new energy sources.

Holy in fact, does not cleanse humanity at all, as evidenced by Advent Children and the compilation. This game contains plenty of references to AC as well, notably featuring one track in particular heavily.

Advent Children, from a narrative standpoint, is nowhere to be seen in FF7R.

Even in the flashbacks, they were deliberate in only showing events relevant to the original game.

And no, Holy was EXPLICITLY said to possibly cleanse itself of humanity as well....hell, the entire point of WEAPON is that it viewed humanity as a collective threat.


At this point, we have no idea if Advent Children is canon or not (and we wouldn't because it takes place after Holy), but there's no reason to currently believe that it is.

And if it was, why didn't they get glimpses of that future in the final battle? Because i'm almost POSITIVE that the actual clips were lifted from Advent Children.

 

[LemmingWithaParachute]

I swear someone let Akira Toriyama into the room when they were drafting this.

 

[Dacon]

Yes, if you consider it canon, which i don't think this game currently does.

The developers have mentioned things about Crisis Core i think, but they didn't say anything about post-FF7 content being considered canon.

They specifically mention in interviews that they moved forward with the Remake with elements of the compilation in mind. Which is why Deepground is present, something not at all relevent to the original FFVII.

And no, Holy was EXPLICITLY said to possibly cleanse itself of humanity as well....hell, the entire point of WEAPON is that it viewed humanity as a collective threat.

The entire point of the WEAPONS is that it views anything that is a threat to the planet as a target. Yet the WEAPONS were not haphazardly attacking every single population center.

They targeted specific locations like Junon, Northern Crater, and Midgar. Places with concentrations of elements that directly threatened the planet. The only WEAPON to ever attack any population center that was unrelated to those targets in the narrative was Ultima Weapon, who seemed concerned with just wrecking up the place period.

And no, Holy was EXPLICITLY said to possibly cleanse itself of humanity as well

Yet it didn't, which is my point. This whole idea hinges on that possibility, and we know it's not what happens. Now if you want to argue that unleashing Holy causes unforeseen future circumstances that can lead to humanity's extinction, like Geostigma, then that's different. Holy itself however, is not responsible for humanity's extinction. Hell, maybe the rot from Geostigma becomes too deeply entwined into the lifestream after AC regardless of the cleansing of midgar/edge, which ultmately leads to the whole planet dying, Sephiroth included.

At this point, we have no idea if Advent Children is canon or not (and we wouldn't because it takes place after Holy), but there's no reason to currently believe that it is.

No reason to believe that it isn't, especially since the original timeline apparently still exists.

 

[DryPancakes]

Meteor hits, we die.
We summon holy to stop meteor, we die.

Is that really how it goes? Seems counter productive.

 

[yewles1]

Sephiroth knows the future, he knows he will lose. He just wants to change it. My question is - how does he know it? That's interesting.

I'm of the few that believes this is a different Sephiroth, this one knew Cloud's name right from the offset, huge clue right there.

 

[Dacon]

I'm of the few that believes this is a different Sephiroth, this one knew Cloud's name right from the offset, huge clue right there.

I agree, this nigga 100% knows the future.

 

[Sub_Level]

I swear someone let Akira Toriyama into the room when they were drafting this.

At least they didn't flanderize the characters like Toriyama does. FF7R cast are pretty faithful to the PS1 original, and are even slightly toned down if anything as opposed to total caricatures.

But yes this does give Goku Black saga vibes of uh wtf

 

[Northeastmonk]

I just finished it. That ending was like Advent Children on steroids. It makes me wonder about the final confrontation and how epic that is going to look. It took me 26 hours on Normal.

 

[Dacon]

Anyone beat all the secret/optional bosses and beat the game on hard mode?

Wondering if there's a secret movie when you 100% like there usually is in Nomura games.

 

[plasmawave]

Funny thing about AC being canon or not... cuz they definitely foreshadow geostigma in the remake.

 

[stickkidsam]

Welllllll dammit. There goes my theory I guess.

I assumed that this game's angle would be that at the end of the original FFVII, Holy didn't stop Sephiroth or Meteor or anything. Instead it reset the world itself and remnants of the past were now appearing to everyone. Aerith being a Cetra, would be more in tune with the planet's will and be aware of this but would still be unsure of what to do because maybe Sephiroth or Jenova are clouding the future?

This shit though? I have NO fuckin idea what to expect here. Is Zack wandering around somewhere with another Cloud now? Is this an alternate dimension? Is this the same planet but without the ghosts now? Why did the past get changed along with the future? Hell, why the fuck are there the ghosts in the first place? Where are we in the chronology???

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

That doesn't make any fucking sense, Sephiroth is human too, when he dies he returns to the planet. If the Whispers job is to stop this shit, Sephiroth should be number one on their shitlist, the WEAPONs attempted to take out Sephiroth too, but the Whispers don't, and actually seem to be helping him.

Seph is now an alien and not Hojo's son.

Maybe.

 

[JohannCK]

New interview with Kitase and Nomura:

Final Fantasy VII Remake Interview with Nomura and Kitase

Final Fantasy VII Remake producer Kitase Yoshinori and director Nomura Tetsuya discuss the development of the game in this interview.

www.frontlinejp.net

 

[stickkidsam]

Seph is now an alien and not Hojo's son.

Maybe.

Oh please god no

 

[yewles1]

Funny thing about AC being canon or not... cuz they definitely foreshadow geostigma in the remake.

Not to mention the AC clips during the whisper boss fight.

 

[stickkidsam]

New interview with Kitase and Nomura:

Final Fantasy VII Remake Interview with Nomura and Kitase

Final Fantasy VII Remake producer Kitase Yoshinori and director Nomura Tetsuya discuss the development of the game in this interview.

www.frontlinejp.net

"Nomura says that Final Fantasy VII Remake's release does not overwrite the original Final Fantasy VII. The original is the origin, and VII Remake is only possible because of the original. "

Confirmation that this is indeed a sequel?

 

[Shouta]

"Nomura says that Final Fantasy VII Remake's release does not overwrite the original Final Fantasy VII. The original is the origin, and VII Remake is only possible because of the original. "

Confirmation that this is indeed a sequel?

A Remake-quel?

 

[Psykodad]

"Nomura says that Final Fantasy VII Remake's release does not overwrite the original Final Fantasy VII. The original is the origin, and VII Remake is only possible because of the original. "

Confirmation that this is indeed a sequel?

How so?

 

[Dark Oni]

New interview with Kitase and Nomura:

Final Fantasy VII Remake Interview with Nomura and Kitase

Final Fantasy VII Remake producer Kitase Yoshinori and director Nomura Tetsuya discuss the development of the game in this interview.

www.frontlinejp.net

"Kitase, who was director of the original FFVII, is asked how much input he had on the remake. He says that the overall direction and concept, story and worldbuilding was left to Nomura, while game design and drama scene direction was left to co-directors Hamaguchi and Toriyama. Kitase did not make many direct requests, but did participate as a planner on some locations in the game: He says that the initial level design for the infiltration and escape from Mako Reactor no. 5 was done by him, and hopes players take notice of it"

yup everything makes sense now

 

[stickkidsam]

How so?

Usually when a story or series gets remade/revised it is treated as having priority in the canon. Here, Nomura seems to be saying or at least implying that the 2 games coexist canonically, specifically pointing out that it's not being overwritten by this Remake and that it's only possible because of the original. Now maybe he's just saying the original game had to be made or else we would never have gotten a remake in the first place, but that just feels too obvious.

Something else to consider is the question Nomura was answering: what fans can expect of this project.

 

[plasmawave]

Not to mention the AC clips during the whisper boss fight.

It's from AC but those events are from OG FF7.
I don't think AC is canon. Stuff like geostigma might be tho.

 

[Shouta]

Usually when a story or series gets remade/revised it is treated as having priority in the canon. Here, Nomura seems to be saying or at least implying that the 2 games coexist canonically, specifically pointing out that it's not being overwritten by this Remake and that it's only possible because of the original. Now maybe he's just saying the original game had to be made or else we would never have gotten a remake in the first place, but that just feels too obvious.

Something else to consider is the question Nomura was answering: what fans can expect of this project.

The entire premise of the game makes it pretty obvious that the original game has to exist for the events that occur FF7r to happen. So it's baked into the game itself even without outside input from Nomura and the other developers. Sephiroth has knowledge of what was possible either by being that person or gaining that information so yeah, it's canon. The question going forward is what the direction they're taking with what's next. Will they make a remake of the same story with alterations or will they go into crazy town with it. My feeling is that it'll be the former and they'll be arranging the story in new ways but following the same core structure from the original. This would allow them more freedom to do what they want with it but still be familiar to fans. That's the happy path and it seems like the most logical. It's just that we've had so many KH shenanigans and Squeenix bobbling things before it's kind of terrifying.

 

[base]

I'm of the few that believes this is a different Sephiroth, this one knew Cloud's name right from the offset, huge clue right there.

Or it might be just a coincidence.

 

[Psykodad]

Usually when a story or series gets remade/revised it is treated as having priority in the canon. Here, Nomura seems to be saying or at least implying that the 2 games coexist canonically, specifically pointing out that it's not being overwritten by this Remake and that it's only possible because of the original. Now maybe he's just saying the original game had to be made or else we would never have gotten a remake in the first place, but that just feels too obvious.

Something else to consider is the question Nomura was answering: what fans can expect of this project.

I think the bolded is actually the case though and he is really just being that straightforward.

Personally I think all they're gonna do is maybe alter the way and moment characters are going to die, but have them die regardless as that's how the story goes. But just to keep things fresh for the longtime fans.

Kinda like Final Destination. You can cheat death, but it's only a matter of time before death catches up to you.
Probably why Wedge was yelling how he hopes he made a difference.

 

[JohannCK]

Usually when a story or series gets remade/revised it is treated as having priority in the canon. Here, Nomura seems to be saying or at least implying that the 2 games coexist canonically, specifically pointing out that it's not being overwritten by this Remake and that it's only possible because of the original. Now maybe he's just saying the original game had to be made or else we would never have gotten a remake in the first place, but that just feels too obvious.

Something else to consider is the question Nomura was answering: what fans can expect of this project.

I don't know if this was ever translated, but in an comment from the end of last year Nomura talks about how he spent a year planning a fifth and final Compilation of FFVII title, but got really busy with other stuff and ended up having to put the plans for it on hold until the producers told him to work on it some years later. Given how this article is about FFVIIR, I'd say that one can assume that VIIR is in fact this fifth compilation title.

I'm of the few that believes this is a different Sephiroth, this one knew Cloud's name right from the offset, huge clue right there.

I played the game in Japanese, and when confronting Sephiroth on the highway Barret first identifies him as the same one as before (the clone from the Shinra building) but Aerith straight up says he's not. It's pretty clear that he's not the same one.

I've heard about how a lot of details are left out of the English version, did they change that line too?

Personality-wise he also seems very close to the the post-AC Sephiroth who's obssessed with Cloud (which was explained in an interview back when AC was released, can't remember who it was speaking about it though).

 

[Fuz]

That and WHY can the whisperers do whatever they want except to Sephiroth? I'm sure we will find out.

Spoiler

Bad writing.

 

[Sub_Level]

Is Red XIII a cat or a dog?

 

[JohannCK]

I played the game in Japanese, and when confronting Sephiroth on the highway Barret first identifies him as the same one as before (the clone from the Shinra building) but Aerith straight up says he's not. It's pretty clear that he's not the same one.

I've heard about how a lot of details are left out of the English version, did they change that line too?

I checked, and they did.

In English it goes:
Barret: "Okay asshole, let's-"
Aerith: "Don't."

The original Japanese dialogue is:
Barret: "You! Just now-"
Aerith: "It's not (the one from just now)"

Other examples I've seen brought up by other people elsewhere of details being dropped from the English version are a guard being able to identify Cloud's buster sword (possibly because he knows it as Zack's/Angeal's?) during the escape in sector 8, and lines from Shinra guards at the sector 7 pillar where they say things like "what is Avalanche trying to accomplish, blowing up this pillar" replaced with general swearing about Avalanche being assholes.

This seems quite bad.

I personally liked VII Remake quite a lot, and the majority of Japanese comments on it that I've seen have been generally positive, but somehow the majority of English comments I've seen have been negative. I honestly can't help but wonder if the localisation had something to do with that.

 

[LordKasual]

No reason to believe that it isn't, especially since the original timeline apparently still exists.

My point is that there's no way to tell.

If AC/Dirge is canon, then we KNOW holy didn't destroy anything. If it isn't, then this theory could be true.

But you have absolutely no way of knowing because nothing in FF7R has alluded to AC events. There was a whole section dedicated specifically to "Future timeline events" and not a single event shown was from AC....despite using clips pulled FROM Advent Children that were only used in the context of the original FF7. They strategically kept this vague....if the game had any Advent Children foreshadowing then i'd just say this was not possible.

But since it doesnt.....the idea that Holy might have nuked humanity is on the table just as much as it isn't.

Meteor hits, we die.
We summon holy to stop meteor, we die.

Is that really how it goes? Seems counter productive.

Holy and Meteor were not made for humanity. And again, it's said that the planet would ultimately choose.

It's suggested that since the Lifestream ultimately helped, Aerith probably helped spare humanity....but if it DIDN'T (and the lifestream swallowed up humanity along with everything else) then the whisper arbiters being composed of Cloud, Barrett and Tifa sort of makes sense.

They would have been absorbed shortly after the original game ended, and thus part of the lifestream, and thus warriors for the Whispers/Planet trying to stop the future from changing (because ultimately, IF Holy/Lifestream ate humanity, then it was the WILL of the planet.)

Seph is now an alien and not Hojo's son.

Maybe.

Technically speaking, Sephiroth was always an alien.

The REAL one was part Alien when he was Hojo's son, so i think it's worth considering that him going insane might have been the "Jenova" part all along.

The one after Nibelheim though was 100% an alien, even in the original.


Sephiroth's will "overcame Jenova", but Jenova always infects/manipulates for her own will....and her will was to absorb the lifestream. So Sephiroth and Jenova are basically interchangable.

Funny thing about AC being canon or not... cuz they definitely foreshadow geostigma in the remake.

I noticed that reference to his arm. And those clips were definitely lifted from Advent Children.

But the thing is that all of the clips from AC were during the "FF7 Recap" portion in the beginning -- there were no clips from post-FF7.

The only actual AC reference was cloud holding his arm like he had/remembered having geostigma.


But even in the original, Cloud during his crazy moments would definitely lose control of his body....its impossible to know if it's a reference to future events in AC, or just AC in general, because there's no confirmation of anything post-holy in the game.

But they absolutely wanted us to look at it so....idk

 

[Collin]

My theory is because of all the aggressive backlash to the ending, FF7R2 will be mostly faithful to the second portion of the game and will only deviate in small moments. They may have planned bigger changes but with the fanbase going so nuts about this, they'll get scared and back down. Luckily, they still will have enough leeway to do that since it seems that the characters only got obscured glimpses of the future, not enough to know how to properly change their destiny.

As to how they bring Zack into all of this, I don't know, and that obviously will have some pretty notable ramifications. I'm sure we'll have to learn Cloud's background twist earlier than we did in the original.

I bet Part 2 will end at the City of the Ancients and I think the biggest change will be that Aerith lives. Maybe that scene plays mostly the same but just before Sephiroth stabs Aerith, Zack will swoop in at last minute and jump in front of the blade and take the hit and he'll die there instead, saving Aerith.

 

[base]

It's possible (got some experience with FFXV you know) that SE will release a patch with an alternative ending

 

[Tomeru]

Wait.

Why are people thinking Zack is alive? Seemed to me that with how Zack carried puppet Cloud with him to midgar was the past.

 

[Shouta]

Wait.

Why are people thinking Zack is alive? Seemed to me that with how Zack carried puppet Cloud with him to midgar was the past.

Zack died on the cliff after that fight with the Shinra army and Cloud heads to Midgard by himself with the Buster Sword. It could be he's still dead and passed away at some point after that but Zack didn't die where he did in the original FF7.

 

[Ani Pneuma]

The ending made me laugh but I understand the disappointment others are feeling. Instead of being called a remake, this should've been treated like the Rebuild of Eva movies since they're taking a similar approach. I think I'll wait for the entire story to be released in a Complete Edition, I'm burnt out after buying 7 Kingdom Hearts games over the years.

 

[Tomeru]

Zack died on the cliff after that fight with the Shinra army and Cloud heads to Midgard by himself with the Buster Sword. It could be he's still dead and passed away at some point after that but Zack didn't die where he did in the original FF7.

I see.

 

[Shouta]

What? Zack got up, took Cloud, and limped tpwards midgar with him on his shoulder.

They passed the gang ghost style. What are you talking about?

That's why people think he's alive. Your post made it sound you think he died still? lol. In the original FF7, he died there on the cliff but him getting up and limping towards Midgar with Cloud means something changed after what happened with the Whispers.

 

[base]

People who didn't play Crisis Core (Zack's story) don't know it's the game's ending.

 

[Shouta]

People who didn't play Crisis Core (Zack's story) don't know it's the game's ending.

What happened with Zack was in FF7 too so only folks that are knew to the game with Remake wouldn't know, I think.

 

[base]

What happened with Zack was in FF7 too so only folks that are knew to the game with Remake wouldn't know, I think.

The only difference is that in Crisis Core he fought thousands of soldiers before dying ;-)

 

[Tomeru]

That's why people think he's alive. Your post made it sound you think he died still? lol. In the original FF7, he died there on the cliff but him getting up and limping towards Midgar with Cloud means something changed after what happened with the Whispers.

Yeah thats why I edited my post. It took a few minutes to remember. And to reread what I wrote lmao. Been a long long time.

 

[a multicultural team of v]

That is the only part that I don't really understand. If that is Zack in the past, and the Cloud he is carrying is the Cloud that you are playing as, then the Cloud you are playing as would be COMPLETELY different. Cloud is only Cloud because Zack died there. If Zack is alive there would be so many changes to history that FFVII wouldn't even be the same story.

But if that is instead maybe Zack in an alternate timeline, we now have what, 3 timelines? OG, Remake, Remake Zack? I really don't know what they are doing here because once you get to three timelines you are on the edge of not caring about any of them.

 

[base]

Or they have a plan to include some stuff from Crisis Core into Episode 2. Just for people who hadn't a chance to play Crisis Core.

 

[Collin]

That is the only part that I don't really understand. If that is Zack in the past, and the Cloud he is carrying is the Cloud that you are playing as, then the Cloud you are playing as would be COMPLETELY different. Cloud is only Cloud because Zack died there. If Zack is alive there would be so many changes to history that FFVII wouldn't even be the same story.

But if that is instead maybe Zack in an alternate timeline, we now have what, 3 timelines? OG, Remake, Remake Zack? I really don't know what they are doing here because once you get to three timelines you are on the edge of not caring about any of them.

My fear is that in this post alone you've put more thought into it than they have. I hope not but maybe.

 

[Shouta]

That is the only part that I don't really understand. If that is Zack in the past, and the Cloud he is carrying is the Cloud that you are playing as, then the Cloud you are playing as would be COMPLETELY different. Cloud is only Cloud because Zack died there. If Zack is alive there would be so many changes to history that FFVII wouldn't even be the same story.

But if that is instead maybe Zack in an alternate timeline, we now have what, 3 timelines? OG, Remake, Remake Zack? I really don't know what they are doing here because once you get to three timelines you are on the edge of not caring about any of them.

There's a bunch of ways they can go about it. It's probably the Back to the Future situation where everything changed but the characters instead of more off-shoot timelines being created but who knows, lol

 

[Rentahamster]

Will they make a remake of the same story with alterations or will they go into crazy town with it. My feeling is that it'll be the former and they'll be arranging the story in new ways but following the same core structure from the original.

They could do both. The introduction of the whispers seems too intentional, since they are agents that protect destiny/the timeline, especially given that they are part of the final battle - you literally fight against fate. I could imagine a scenario where they allow you to change the course of history by fighting against the whispers. Branching paths on steroids gated by hard boss fights that lead to crazy town. It's giving me Chrono Trigger vibes, in a good way.

This reminds me of something I posted last year too.

I wonder if they'll be branching storylines and multiple endings. I'd like to be able to do a playthrough where I save Aerith, or take out Sephiroth and take his place.

 

[Shouta]

They could do both. The introduction of the whispers seems too intentional, since they are agents that protect destiny/the timeline, especially given that they are part of the final battle - you literally fight against fate. I could imagine a scenario where they allow you to change the course of history by fighting against the whispers. Branching paths on steroids gated by hard boss fights that lead to crazy town. It's giving me Chrono Trigger vibes, in a good way.

This reminds me of something I posted last year too.

A Chrono Trigger, or Radiant Historia for something more robust, situation would be pretty interesting actually but that would be ambitious and a bit wild even for them, lol.

 

[Rentahamster]

My theory is because of all the aggressive backlash to the ending

I've been doing a media blackout of the game, but I just finished it, and I thought the ending was badass. There's a lot of people who are mad? About what?

 

[TheAmazingSpiderMan]

My theory is because of all the aggressive backlash to the ending,

What backlash do you speak of?? Apart from the minority of forum users on Gaf and Era, there's no other backlash I've seen. Majority of the sites have praised the game and given it good scores.. What backlash do you speak of as I genuinely don't see it on other sites apart from these two forums.

 

[Gexxy1]

I swear someone let Akira Toriyama into the room when they were drafting this.

No, just Nomura.

 

[yewles1]

That is the only part that I don't really understand. If that is Zack in the past, and the Cloud he is carrying is the Cloud that you are playing as, then the Cloud you are playing as would be COMPLETELY different. Cloud is only Cloud because Zack died there. If Zack is alive there would be so many changes to history that FFVII wouldn't even be the same story.

But if that is instead maybe Zack in an alternate timeline, we now have what, 3 timelines? OG, Remake, Remake Zack? I really don't know what they are doing here because once you get to three timelines you are on the edge of not caring about any of them.

People here are missing something, when the group travelled past the portal to follow Sephiroth and up fighting the Whisper bosses, they wound up ln what looked to be the exact same place they left, but suddenly the Whispers attack in full force and Zack appears to be fightimg outside at that exact moment. When they kept beating a certain part of the big guy, they get glimpses of events that--apparently--will no longer happen because of fates being changed due to Sephiroth's mechanisms.

My belief is that they fought the whispers and Sephiroth in an alternate timeline and question is now after the huge yellow explosion:

A) Did our group get put back to their own timeline to adventure with destiny no longer binding them?

Or...

B) Did our group and Zack/Young Cloud switch places and are going to have to wonder how to get back respectively?