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[yeeeeeezy]

So there's been a lot of talk about this clip where he explains how it bothers him how many female game characters are hypersexualized in games. He explains how he wanted a good role model for his daughter who isn't sexualized so he set out to create one in Ellie.

Serious question - why does this clip bother so many people? Ellie is one of the most beloved characters in gaming. She was heavily influenced by Neil's politics.. So what?

 

[Hendrick's]

Do you really think Ellie is a good role model?

 

[O-N-E]

They don't like his politics.

 

[Makoto-Yuki]

"Ellie is one of the most beloved characters in gaming "

lol

 

[Portugeezer]

This is not a game for kids, not even remotely, so it doesn't even matter.

How is this about role models for his daughter or other people's kids?

 

[Whitesnake]

Because he believes that sexiness is inherently bad, and he believes that sexy characters cannot be deep or interesting or inspirational.

The problem isn't Ellie, she's fine I guess, the problem is Druckmann.

 

[TGO]

So he made Ellen Page?

 

[SpartanN92]

Ah yes, the scrappy teenage lesbian that is always going "Fuuuuuuck" after murdering someone is a good role model for young girls.

 

[CobraXT]

..

 

[SpartanN92]

Because he believes that sexiness is inherently bad, and he believes that sexy characters cannot be deep or interesting or inspirational.

The problem isn't Ellie, she's fine I guess, the problem is Druckmann.

IMO Cortana is one of the greatest female characters ever. She is the smartest thing in the universe, she's likable and she exemplifies actual feminine beauty.

Druckman can go suck off the "It's MA'AM" guy. His interpretation of respectable role models is the exact opposite of what I want my daughter to see.

 

[yeeeeeezy]

Because he believes that sexiness is inherently bad, and he believes that sexy characters cannot be deep or interesting or inspirational.

The problem isn't Ellie, she's fine I guess, the problem is Druckmann.

You can't find me a single quote where he says "sexy characters cannot be deep or interesting or inspirational." Indeed, Chloe from Uncharted is incredibly sexy. And she uses her sex appeal to get her way.

 

[manfestival]

So there's been a lot of talk about this clip where he explains how it bothers him how many female game characters are hypersexualized in games. He explains how he wanted a good role model for his daughter who isn't sexualized so he set out to create one in Ellie.

Serious question - why does this clip bother so many people? Ellie is one of the most beloved characters in gaming. She was heavily influenced by Neil's politics.. So what?

So he is ok with for his daughter to look up to someone violently killing people but not ok with her celebrating her body. Not sure how Ellie is a good role model for anyone as someone else posted in this thread. If you look up to Ellie, you really need to re-evaluate your life.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Ah yes, the scrappy teenage lesbian that is always going "Fuuuuuuck" is a good role model for young girls.

I was thinking more the murder thing would make her not a good role model; not being a lesbian.

 

[yeeeeeezy]

IMO Cortana is one of the greatest female characters ever. She is the smartest thing in the universe, she's likable and she exemplifies actual feminine beauty.

Druckman can go suck off the "It's MA'AM" guy. His interpretation of respectable role models is the exact opposite of what I want my daughter to see.

So you'd prefer your daughter with big tits and a small waist?

 

[SleepDoctor]

Don't really need a thread about this. This same video has been posted a few times in the other threads

 

[SpartanN92]

I was thinking more the murder thing would make her not a good role model; not being a lesbian.

Depends on your values.

 

[Punished Miku]

Honestly, I don't think anything's changed between TLoU, Uncharted 4 and TLoU2. They've always been like this. Even dating back to Uncharted 1, I saw people complimenting the female characters and their lack of sexualization.

Naughty Dog's always been like this.

 

[Makoto-Yuki]

deleted

 

[-Arcadia-]

The issue is that there's probably a perfectly normal middle ground inbetween naked smurf women and ones who look like they're taking testosterone and steroids.

And tbh, guys should be able to have fun and eye candy too. I don't mind Cortana, or feel in any way offended by her. I will admit I laughed a bit when I first saw the Halo 4 design, and was like, 'Really?', but it's not the big deal Duckman points it out to be.

There's a lot of great female characters these days, unless you're not looking, or cherry-picking examples. As such, there's even less reason to swing so hard to the opposite extreme, to such a ridiculous extent.

 

[ExpandKong]

Because he believes that sexiness is inherently bad, and he believes that sexy characters cannot be deep or interesting or inspirational.

The problem isn't Ellie, she's fine I guess, the problem is Druckmann.

This right here .

You can't find me a single quote where he says "sexy characters cannot be deep or interesting or inspirational." Indeed, Chloe from Uncharted is incredibly sexy. And she uses her sex appeal to get her way.

She also wasn't created by Druckmann.

 

[SpartanN92]

So you'd prefer your daughter with big tits and a small waist?

Go that direction and ignore what we all know I'm talking about if you watched the leak thread.

 

[Coolwhhip]

Because no one should care about a small group of twitter warriors.

 

[Rat Rage]

At the end of the day, everything that matters is whether the game is good/fun to play/engaging or not. If the story is shit and ruins everything for you, then so be it.

A creator can choose whatever he wants to put in his game, be it political or not. However, he might - obviously - face the consequences by doing so.

It's like in real life: If you talk to people about politics, you put yourself out there and will be judged and treated a certain way.

If I were a person of huge media attention, I would definitely not talk about politics too much, but that's just me.

Let's wait and see if the game turns out to be a success.

 

[Danjin44]

I will say this again, Druckmann is more than free to make any type of characters he wants for his games but so is other developers and if they want have sexy designs in their games they should be free to do so.

Since when characters being sexy became a "bad thing"?

 

[yeeeeeezy]

Do you really think Ellie is a good role model?

I think a lot of young girls do look up to Ellie. She's tough, determined, competent, funny and doesn't take shit from anyone. Pretty cool character.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Because he believes that sexiness is inherently bad, and he believes that sexy characters cannot be deep or interesting or inspirational.

The problem isn't Ellie, she's fine I guess, the problem is Druckmann.

It's their game. Why do we even care if video game characters are sexualized when real women and porn exists?

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

You can't find me a single quote where he says "sexy characters cannot be deep or interesting or inspirational." Indeed, Chloe from Uncharted is incredibly sexy. And she uses her sex appeal to get her way.

Because Amy designed Chloe not Duckman

 

[SuperGooey]

I have no problem with Ellie's design. I personally prefer more exaggerated designs, but that's not what Last of Us is.

I do have a problem with people equating sexuality to weakness. I understand the "male gaze" argument, but I think owning your sexuality and being brave enough to flaunt it can be empowering. With that said, Ellie is what? 14 years old or something? Yeah, not the right character to sexualize if you ask me.

 

[cormack12]

Serious question - why does this clip bother so many people? Ellie is one of the most beloved characters in gaming. She was heavily influenced by Neil's politics.. So what?

Which people? Can you point me to this massive cohort of gamers that think this way? Or link me to real concerted outrage (not an article reporting outrage) the actual cauldron of hate.

You started the thread, so what?

You trolls are getting worse.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

I think a lot of young girls do look up to Ellie. She's tough, determined, competent, funny and doesn't take shit from anyone. Pretty cool character.

That is projection of the highest order.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

I don't get bothered by LGBQT representation in games. Or female characters being portrayed "less feminine."

I am not saying that I am right, I am not saying anyone else is wrong. Not at all. It's a personal preference thing, I guess. Nothing wrong with feeling different ways about it.

I understand some people feel it's overdone, it's hamfisted pandering, but personally I just don't think twice about it. To me Ellie is Ellie. I don't need Ellie to be Lara Croft.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

This video again?

I think I've seen it pasted 3 times already across the many LoU2 threads.

 

[Bladed Thesis]

Ellie is one of the most beloved characters in gaming.

This is a bit much. She's been in one game, on one console, that is less than 10 years old. How is she one of the most beloved characters in gaming?

 

[Kuranghi]

The main reason I think it upsets people is because he thinks that those designs are bad BECAUSE they have exposed skin/bodies, regardless of context or the characters actual... character. Its funny because with Cortana, later Halo games/devs really tried to make Cortana's body be more realistic, but thats irrelevant because her "tits are out" [Sorry for horrendous website link, but its the best comparison lol]:

I fear for Neil's son asking him about boobs and foofs, he probably tells his son he is a rapist for thinking about them (This is hyperbole).

I wonder how Neil would interpret media like the old Diet Coke adverts, those were surely completely not objectifying men's bodies...

I'm currently trying to get back in contact with a dev who worked with Neil Druckmann as creative lead [co-leads] on various ND games. The first thing I am going to ask him is if Neil was always trying to insert this stuff even back during UC2 days, but I'm sure its just a modern "disease" he caught like many others.

 

[-thirdeye-]

You can't find me a single quote where he says "sexy characters cannot be deep or interesting or inspirational." Indeed, Chloe from Uncharted is incredibly sexy. And she uses her sex appeal to get her way.

But...also written by a woman, Amy Henning. Not Druckman.

 

[Shakka43]

Don't put Ayane in your filthy mouth Neil.

 

[yeeeeeezy]

That is projection of the highest order.

"She is one of the most fascinating, real, down to earth, perfectly written and acted characters I've ever come across in a long while. Possibly the best NPC ever." -Angry Joe

 

[HaveButOneLife]

Because his beliefs are trash.

 

[yeeeeeezy]

But...also written by a woman, Amy Henning. Not Druckman.

So what. Ellie was written by Neil. Ellie is a 100x better character than Chloe.

 

[Strategize]

This is a bit much. She's been in one game, on one console, that is less than 10 years old. How is she one of the most beloved characters in gaming?

"Ellie is one of the most beloved characters in gaming "

lol

TLOU is one of the most popular games ever specifically because of Joel and Ellie, of course he's right.

One game, it doesn't matter, there are many game franchises with multiple games that can only dream of being as popular as TLOU has become after one game.

 

[Fbh]

Let me throw that back at you: Some people don't like his politics and characters and they are expressing this opinion online, so what?

Druckmann has a right to have his own views and politics and make characters that align with that, doesn't mean everyone has to like it.
Your very post has a slide from one of his presentations where he criticizes the work of other people in the industry, so why should he be immune to criticism?

 

[Fuz]

So? His game, his characters.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

Folks like to be upset, I guess.

 

[Woggleman]

Gamers have made Anita into some all powerful boogie woman.

 

[Lionel Richie]

Serious question - why does this clip bother so many people? Ellie is one of the most beloved characters in gaming. She was heavily influenced by Neil's politics.. So what?

Clearly she's not one of the most unanimously beloved characters in gaming. I thought she was a preposterous plot device with zero depth in the first game, but it wasn't that much of a problem because she wasn't the main focus in the game and at least Druckmann was aping good material in The Road. I actually haven't seen any spoilers for the second one so I can't comment on that, but the idea that Ellie is this great character that gets unfair hate due to politics alone is not accurate. She wasn't much to write home about from the start.

 

[cormack12]

This video again?

I think I've seen it pasted 3 times already across the many LoU2 threads.

Party propaganda. Stay on message, create invisible enemy we're all united against (or should be), repeat the ideology.....I long for the inventive and creative trollery of the 2003-2008 era. Too many angry mums and dads on Twitter means they don't even have to work these days.

 

[HaveButOneLife]

So what. Ellie was written by Neil. Ellie is a 100x better character than Chloe.

You don't know that, because her character isn't final. You haven't experienced her in 2 yet, she may be terrible once you play.

Gamers have made Anita into some all powerful boogie woman.

We aren't afraid of her, she's just objectively insufferable.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Because it's third-wave "feminism" that's more a disservice to women (let alone men) than an actual beneficial value to them or society.

And yes his beliefs will influence his work, they do for all creators. But creators with a reign on putting a buffer between themselves and their art, can moderate the amount their beliefs influence their work. That ultimately benefits their works from coming off as a self-absorbed soapbox.

Druckmann missed the memo, apparently. Also creators sharing Druckmann's ideologies in other media who give unrestricted reign to those ideologies influencing their work, have almost all turned out mediocre products shunning the core fanbases and trying to push particular narratives at the expense of insulting and damning anyone who disagrees with their methods (even if they agree on some or many of the things those ideologies want to champion).

I don't get bothered by LGBQT representation in games. Or female characters being portrayed "less feminine."

I am not saying that I am right, I am not saying anyone else is wrong. Not at all. It's a personal preference thing, I guess. Nothing with feeling different ways about it.

I understand some people feel it's overdone, it's hamfisted pandering, but personally I just don't think twice about it. To me Ellie is Ellie. I don't need Ellie to be Lara Croft.

I'm mostly on this train of thought. However, I can't ignore that with Western games in particular there's been a seemingly industry-wide effort the past few years among AAA games to desexualize female characters. It's one thing if it's a few here or there, it's something else if it's a trend you can notice in almost every game. If a reality where women are only hot supermodels obviously doesn't exist, why are so many Western AAA games trying to seemingly imply a reality where no hot supermodel women exist? Because we know that is also false.

So for me it has a good bit to do with that. Also, unfortunately for Neil he's apparently been super influenced by Anita's perspectives. IMO she's a classic example of what's wrong with third-wave feminism today. She may not be the absolute worst at it, but she's done more harm than good to gaming from what I can see.

 

[martino]

So there's been a lot of talk about this clip where he explains how it bothers him how many female game characters are hypersexualized in games. He explains how he wanted a good role model for his daughter who isn't sexualized so he set out to create one in Ellie.

Serious question - why does this clip bother so many people? Ellie is one of the most beloved characters in gaming. She was heavily influenced by Neil's politics.. So what?

A cultural product is never forced onto you.
Creator can do what they want.
If you think you cannot ignore what they do you are the problem
Different opinions can exists even when it's an AAA game
The problem would be his opinions becoming the only one represented....we are really far from itit's a generic you.

edit: you is not you ot .it's a generic you

 

[yeeeeeezy]

This video again?

I think I've seen it pasted 3 times already across the many LoU2 threads.

That's why I created this thread. It's popping up everywhere. I wanted to have a more focused discussion on it.