Game Developer at Team Blur Games on Xbox Series X: You're going to hear a lot about why SFS (Sampler Feedback Streaming) is such a big deal

Bernkastel said:
And I gave you an actual list of devs who spoke about XSX, which is way more reliable.
As for Jason.

Google Podcasts is no longer available

podcasts.google.com podcasts.google.com
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Yeah, I'll stick with Jeff Grubb and Jason Shreier over Microsoft first party developers. Just like I don't pay any attention to Sony first party developers who prefer the PS5.

Plus, we had that Crytek developer as well as Ready at Dawn say the same thing.

Too much smoke for it not to be true.
 
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Thirty7ven said:
I always get a laugh out of these indie nobodies with no access to devkits who feel the need to chime in and speak on behalf of a beloved platform.
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Yeah ignore all those nobody indie devs hyping up the weaker PS5 too then. Why hasn't sony discussed whether the numbers for their SSD is peak or sustained like MS has? People should be asking that question.

This gen will come down to XSX having better resolution,framerates,ray tracing etc... vs PS5 having 1-2 second faster loading.
 
Gavin Stevens said:
The simple truth is PS5 answers xboxes power by extreme optimisation. Xbox answers Ps5s amazing throughput with their own advancements such as VA/BCP/SFS.

Neither are quite as good as the other in this regard, but both are incredibly awesome machines that are nearly on par.

This seems to offend a lot of people though, which is quite sad. 🤷🏼
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Nailed it. The XsX will be able to produce better visuals., and the PS5 will have quicker load times but neither console will have noticeably better visuals or quicker load times.
 
Men_in_Boxes said:
Yeah, I'll stick with Jeff Grubb and Jason Shreier over Microsoft first party developers. Just like I don't pay any attention to Sony first party developers who prefer the PS5.
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Only very few in that list were first party, rest are third party. Third party who are not working on Xbox exclusives in that list are.
Erwan LeCun, co-founder of Ape Tribe Games
Joel Baker, Technical Director at Hinterland Games
Kevin Floyer-Lea, Chief Technology Officer at Rebellion
Alexandre Sabourin, Team Lead at Snowed In Studios
Richard Geldreich, worked at Space X, Valve and Ensemble
Chris Grannel, ex-Sony first party dev who worked on Formula One Series, Wipeout HD:Fury and Killzone 2 for Playstation.
Johannes Kuhlmann, head of core technology at FishLabs
David Springate, Technical Director at Codemasters
Jan Kavan, Co-Founder at CBE Software
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TeezzyD said:
Sounds to me like its very much akin to NVidia's DLSS 2.0 in console form. Talking out of my ass, but it makes sense.

www.pcgamesn.com

DLSS 2.0 makes Death Stranding look and run way better

Nvidia's deep learning upscaling provides a significant performance boost to Death Stranding and makes textures crisper
www.pcgamesn.com www.pcgamesn.com
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Not quite, as MS has their own variety of Machine learning. ML mainly (from my very limited knowledge) is also applicable beyond texture res, and can yield better actual in game AI, so NPCs feel more alive/believable, and that's just one example.
 
I may be a sad, lonely indie dev (with a lot of experience on a few retail games released and worked on a prominent RTX title but hey who cares), but I could be an ice cream seller from Swansea....? It doesn't actually matter, as long as you understand the core technology and how math works.

Also, if that upsets you, I was chatting with James Stanard on that very tweet. James isa Graphics Optimization R&D and Engine Architect at Microsoft. Maybe his words hold weight for you?
 
Men_in_Boxes said:
Yeah, I'll stick with Jeff Grubb and Jason Shreier over Microsoft first party developers. Just like I don't pay any attention to Sony first party developers who prefer the PS5.

Plus, we had that Crytek developer as well as Ready at Dawn say the same thing.

Too much smoke for it not to be true.
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You obviously didn't look at the list, or you would have noticed it was more than just first party. /facepalm
 
SlimySnake said:
thats odium on gaf.
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2037b55103bec09d7c77dfb9894f54b7.jpg


Probably because i've had the smug uppity cunt on ignore for 9 months

At least gaf is getting some status again
 
Men_in_Boxes said:
Yeah, I'll stick with Jeff Grubb and Jason Shreier over Microsoft first party developers. Just like I don't pay any attention to Sony first party developers who prefer the PS5.

Plus, we had that Crytek developer as well as Ready at Dawn say the same thing.

Too much smoke for it not to be true.
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Most powerful console and preferring which platform they rather develop for are two seperate things. My understanding is XSX dev kits are not as mature as PS5 some months ago. That may have changed now. I'd say having to develop for both the XSX and Lockhart leaves a bad taste in some devs minds as well.
 
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Men_in_Boxes Men_in_Boxes We don't know what specific developers Jeff and Jason spoke to, and whether they were working with final hardware, or devkits. If devkits, what iterations, and when were the discussions held? What projects were they working on? Did they have access to both? Tons of questions relating to context obviously missing there.

The Crytek developer's quote was in reference to ease-of-use, as in the dev environment being easier for them possibly for a mixture of more mature dev environment (MS's Gamecore, which is for next-gen development, has only very recently been ready to go at least from what I've heard), and certain parts of PS5's setup that are relatively easier to leverage like the memory pool being fully unified instead of split into fast/slow pools.

But certain people tried running away with that to insinuate it meaning it was more powerful, and didn't take the dev's own programming biases/experience into account, either. Otherwise most of the devs talking positively of PS5 have been Sony developers like Naughty Dog, Guerrilla, etc.

Their statements still mean something, obviously, but this fantasy some people have in the dev community overwhelmingly preferring Sony's platform to Microsoft's, don't understand how the industry works and don't have any hard proof to back this up. Obviously some devs will prefer Sony's setup and others will prefer Microsoft's, but in both cases there are always also financial incentives and technological incentives/partnerships/opportunities at play too.

Just look at Epic Games ;)

Gashtronomy said:
2037b55103bec09d7c77dfb9894f54b7.jpg


Probably because i've had the smug uppity cunt on ignore for 9 months

At least gaf is getting some status again
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Lol yeah I thought it was him the name looked familiar but I didn't want to assume anything. He's been a chill dude though and worth listening to. I think they know what they're talking about here.

After all if people are willing to put stock into guys like BGs, why be selective with it? Doesn't mean you have to see things from their POV, but at least give folks benefit of the doubt.
 
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Bernkastel said:
Only very few in that list were first party, rest are third party. Third party who are not working on Xbox exclusives in that list are.
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The third party developers in that list don't even hint that they prefer one over the other. They're just praising the Series X.

Which is fine. The Series X is probably a good machine.

But it seems pretty clear at this point that developers prefer the PS5.
 
Men_in_Boxes said:
The third party developers in that list don't even hint that they prefer one over the other. They're just praising the Series X.

Which is fine. The Series X is probably a good machine.

But it seems pretty clear at this point that developers prefer the PS5.
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Isnt it the same with Tim Sweeny? He will talk about PS5 and never compare it with XSX.
iUqIkf3.png

fC4dYHH.png
 
thicc_girls_are_teh_best said:
Men_in_Boxes Men_in_Boxes We don't know what specific developers Jeff and Jason spoke to, and whether they were working with final hardware, or devkits. If devkits, what iterations, and when were the discussions held? What projects were they working on? Did they have access to both? Tons of questions relating to context obviously missing there.

The Crytek developer's quote was in reference to ease-of-use, as in the dev environment being easier for them possibly for a mixture of more mature dev environment (MS's Gamecore, which is for next-gen development, has only very recently been ready to go at least from what I've heard), and certain parts of PS5's setup that are relatively easier to leverage like the memory pool being fully unified instead of split into fast/slow pools.

But certain people tried running away with that to insinuate it meaning it was more powerful, and didn't take the dev's own programming biases/experience into account, either. Otherwise most of the devs talking positively of PS5 have been Sony developers like Naughty Dog, Guerrilla, etc.

Their statements still mean something, obviously, but this fantasy some people have in the dev community overwhelmingly preferring Sony's platform to Microsoft's, don't understand how the industry works and don't have any hard proof to back this up. Obviously some devs will prefer Sony's setup and others will prefer Microsoft's, but in both cases there are always also financial incentives and technological incentives/partnerships/opportunities at play too.

Just look at Epic Games ;)



Lol yeah I thought it was him the name looked familiar but I didn't want to assume anything. He's been a chill dude though and worth listening to. I think they know what they're talking about here.

After all if people are willing to put stock into guys like BGs, why be selective with it? Doesn't mean you have to see things from their POV, but at least give folks benefit of the doubt.
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I guess this is true.

But Jeff Grubb specifically has a pretty sterling reputation and made it a point to say the developers he's spoken to prefer the PS5. His statement was only from a few weeks ago.

Moore's Law is Dead also seems to have industry contacts and says he's hearing the same thing. The PS5 just seems to excite developers in a way the Series X doesn't. That doesn't mean the Series X is bad.

Again, just too much smoke for there not to be fire. We're not getting any credible sources suggesting developers prefer the Series X over the PS5.

It probably doesn't even matter that much but it seems so lopsided for it not to be true.
 
thicc_girls_are_teh_best said:
Lol yeah I thought it was him the name looked familiar but I didn't want to assume anything. He's been a chill dude though and worth listening to. I think they know what they're talking about here.

After all if people are willing to put stock into guys like BGs, why be selective with it? Doesn't mean you have to see things from their POV, but at least give folks benefit of the doubt.
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To be honest, i liked the dude, then he seemed to go off of the rails and enjoy the smell of his own farts a bit too much. I did tell him that he was going a bit bat shit and he did reign it in, then he went double bat shit. Who am i to judge though? Fair play to the guy and i hope he gets a good name for himself.
 
Can you guys stop acting like 'developers' are a homogenous race with the same ideas and thoughts?
'Developers' do not prefer PS5. They also do not prefer XSX.

You guys realize developers are as human as you are, and you guys fighting console wars right? Guess what?

Lots of developers are fighting engine wars LMAO
3D artists are fighting DCC wars ("Maya is the industry standard!!", "Blender is becoming better or already is!!")

And some just don't get the bullshit. All the same.
 
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Bernkastel said:
Devs literally compare it with DLSS 2.0.
wccftech.com

Scorn Interview - Xbox Series X Is a 'Very Balanced System'; Trailer Was Running on an RTX 2080Ti

We talk to the Game Director of Scorn. He claims that the Xbox Series X is a very balanced system and clarifies the GPU used in the trailer.
wccftech.com wccftech.com
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Fair, the dev in question is explaining what DirectML can do and gives DLSS as an example of what you can build with it (likely MS has sample models you can use built on top of the basic building blocks).

You can build something like DLSS using DirectML, but I bet the billion dollar bit of DLSS is the proprietary model they built and trained in house. Having the building blocks != having the same solution and/or quality.

DirectML
Direct Machine Learning (DirectML) is a low-level API for machine learning (ML). Hardware-accelerated machine learning primitives (called operators) are the building blocks of DirectML. From those building blocks, you can develop such machine learning techniques as upscaling, anti-aliasing, and style transfer, to name but a few.
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docs.microsoft.com

Introduction to DirectML

Direct Machine Learning (DirectML) is a low-level API for machine learning (ML).
docs.microsoft.com

DLSS
NVIDIA DLSS 2.0 is a new and improved deep learning neural network that boosts frame rates and generates beautiful, sharp images for your games.
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developer.nvidia.com

NVIDIA DLSS

Boosts frame rates and generates sharp images.
developer.nvidia.com developer.nvidia.com
 
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Men_in_Boxes said:
The third party developers in that list don't even hint that they prefer one over the other. They're just praising the Series X.

Which is fine. The Series X is probably a good machine.

But it seems pretty clear at this point that developers prefer the PS5.
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Probably a good machine? Its only 2tf more powerful and smaller in size compared to the PS5 while also having sustained performance across the board from the gpu/cpu, to the SSD. It best PS5 in all areas except the SSD. However sony has not disclosed if the SSD numbers they've given are peak or sustained like MS has. Apparently Velocity is a big deal and a darkhorse for the XSX.
 
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Men_in_Boxes said:
Yeah, I'll stick with Jeff Grubb and Jason Shreier over Microsoft first party developers. Just like I don't pay any attention to Sony first party developers who prefer the PS5.

Plus, we had that Crytek developer as well as Ready at Dawn say the same thing.

Too much smoke for it not to be true.
Click to expand...

Well we all Know that Tim Sweeney said that PS5 was easier to work with, just like he said PS3 was easier to work with. So it must be similar to PS3. My memory isn't the best, how was PS3 again?



Never trust these early dev talks. Trust the results.
 
Men_in_Boxes said:
I guess this is true.

But Jeff Grubb specifically has a pretty sterling reputation and made it a point to say the developers he's spoken to prefer the PS5. His statement was only from a few weeks ago.

Moore's Law is Dead also seems to have industry contacts and says he's hearing the same thing. The PS5 just seems to excite developers in a way the Series X doesn't. That doesn't mean the Series X is bad.

Again, just too much smoke for there not to be fire. We're not getting any credible sources suggesting developers prefer the Series X over the PS5.

It probably doesn't even matter that much but it seems so lopsided for it not to be true.
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Moore's Law Is Dead, I honestly do not like the guy. He comes off as a fanboy and I've actually seen this in a few comments in his videos. This was about a month ago. Some people tried correcting him on his implications of parts of the PS5 and he assumed things of them, then made thinly-veiled Xbox remarks at them.

Of course he wouldn't do this in a video, but in comments section where most people will miss it? Sure why not. He's also been wrong on many occasions in general with various speculation and rumors but I don't think it's worth bringing that up.

Jeff Grubb still can't specify who the devs are that he talked to. Devs being plural, it could mean a bunch or it could mean two or three. Individuals, not even teams necessarily. We have no indication what his sampling size was or what devs he actually has that close a relationship with to speak on this with, so there's no way of quantifying his statements.

Even so, they're kind of a "no duh"; there's SO many devs on these systems, you are bound to find some who prefer one platform and some who prefer the other platform. Not every reason comes down to technology, either; some might prefer one or the other for financial reasons too, whether that means more sales or backroom deals. Who's to say.

Lastly I think Jeff got in some hot water himself recently because after MS put out a statement for the July event he immediately made dismissive comments (or posted something that was dismissive in tone) to try ginning up focus back on Sony and PS5, when all MS did was literally reiterate the date of the event. So I think Jeff might have some bias himself and could be exaggerating his own claims.
 
Grinchy said:
Sweet, hope to see some of this in use soon. In the meantime, I'll just read the tech stuff and think

ET5pbmI.gif
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😂😂😂 I've exhausted my self trying to understand the XVA, even reaching out to actual devs and software engineers in the industry and the explanations make me feel like I should just go back and finish my degree😂
 
Andodalf said:
Well we all Know that Tim Sweeney said that PS5 was easier to work with, just like he said PS3 was easier to work with. So it must be similar to PS3. My memory isn't the best, how was PS3 again?



Never trust these early dev talks. Trust the results.
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So because Tim Sweeney lied / was wrong back in 2013...we must throw out all developer opinions now?

471.jpg
 
thicc_girls_are_teh_best said:
Moore's Law Is Dead, I honestly do not like the guy. He comes off as a fanboy and I've actually seen this in a few comments in his videos. This was about a month ago. Some people tried correcting him on his implications of parts of the PS5 and he assumed things of them, then made thinly-veiled Xbox remarks at them.

Of course he wouldn't do this in a video, but in comments section where most people will miss it? Sure why not. He's also been wrong on many occasions in general with various speculation and rumors but I don't think it's worth bringing that up.

Jeff Grubb still can't specify who the devs are that he talked to. Devs being plural, it could mean a bunch or it could mean two or three. Individuals, not even teams necessarily. We have no indication what his sampling size was or what devs he actually has that close a relationship with to speak on this with, so there's no way of quantifying his statements.

Even so, they're kind of a "no duh"; there's SO many devs on these systems, you are bound to find some who prefer one platform and some who prefer the other platform. Not every reason comes down to technology, either; some might prefer one or the other for financial reasons too, whether that means more sales or backroom deals. Who's to say.

Lastly I think Jeff got in some hot water himself recently because after MS put out a statement for the July event he immediately made dismissive comments (or posted something that was dismissive in tone) to try ginning up focus back on Sony and PS5, when all MS did was literally reiterate the date of the event. So I think Jeff might have some bias himself and could be exaggerating his own claims.
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To me, this all feels kinda gross.

There's a handful of impartial sources, with varying degrees of credibility...and they all say "Developers prefer the PS5".

From what I can tell, there isn't a single impartial credible source who says the opposite.

So it's turned into some kind of vast conspiracy, or maybe developers do just prefer the PS5? I don't know, it seems incredibly plausible that Sony made a machine that developers prefer.

This feels so bizarre seeing people try to discredit every single source.
 
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its so fucking dumb that because twitter is the main way of disseminating information that we subjugate ourselves to this incredibly stupid formatting of multiple bite sized posts.
 
Men_in_Boxes said:
Nope. I've always maintained that developers and sources (Shreier, Grubb, MLiD) have varying degrees of reliability.

I've also never given credence to Tim Sweeney. In fact, it was you who brought him up.
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So you mean Journalists are more important then actual devs ?
 
Rikkori said:
Excellent breakdown Gavin Stevens Gavin Stevens thanks for the insight! How do you think these 2 approaches (consoles) will impact development for PC? If at all.
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This will really annoy certain people but it needs to be said... The MS way is the best way to add this without a massive shift in how we design our systems and without massive cost. It's actually there, in direct X ultimate, to use on our "peasant" SSD drives.

The Sony way is essentially a lot more complex. It will require new drives, of which you've seen the prices for those kinds of speeds, but it will also require many more changes to how systems are set up. I fear it's not compatible with how things work now, and will require us all to essentially rebuild our damn rigs, again lol.

Sonys SSD solution IS better, don't misunderstand this. It's just easier to work with, and results are results. But for PCs to play catch up, I honestly expect everybody to move in favour of the Xbox solution. It's just far less disruptive for essentially very comparable gains.

Lastly, people see large numbers and go "that numbers bigger, it's better!" For both consoles on both flops AND IO. But let's not kid ourselves... To fill this takes LOT. GPU can be maxed out just by being shit at optimisation, but IO? You need to be throwing a shit load of data every frame to make even the Xbox system struggle.


HoodWinked said:
its so fucking dumb that because twitter is the main way of disseminating information that we subjugate ourselves to this incredibly stupid formatting of multiple bite sized posts.
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Twitter is just too limited for anything decent, and the fact they still don't allow editing of posts is stupid.
 
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geordiemp said:
They already have exceeded it, you saw it in the uE5 demo but it was for pixels and voxels rather than simpler mipmaps.

Also PRT+ has been out for ever, since doom 4 engines have been only streaming whats in view in the frustum, but all of a sudden its new again....lol

But carry on.
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STOP IT GEORDIE
BLOODY DREAM SMASHER.

Have a good dam heart will you.
 
eastwood333 said:
Yeah ignore all those nobody indie devs hyping up the weaker PS5 too then. Why hasn't sony discussed whether the numbers for their SSD is peak or sustained like MS has? People should be asking that question.

This gen will come down to XSX having better resolution,framerates,ray tracing etc... vs PS5 having 1-2 second faster loading.
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I thought ps5 was instant and the Microsoft quick resume demo was like 6+ seconds for loading.

I am sure there was a video of spiderman that they said was not optimised and was like half a second or something in loading time. Can you link the new 2 second loading difference please from microsoft please.
 
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sircaw said:
I thought ps5 was instant and the Microsoft quick resume demo was like 6+ seconds for loading.
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Look, why dont you go join team blurr, he paints pictures and you can do those animation things and sound things to make a game thingy.

If you take his image and shake it it loads quicker than Ps5,....

You can be a dev to, just copy the Blurr logo and create a web site, they will come and you can be a dev.

We all can be devs. We can be heroes, but just for one day

Dev fishy.
 
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NickFire said:
Magic tricks? Did I read that last tweet right? Is this the new cloud power?
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Hey this dev has devloped one image, you can join Teamblur today and be a developer if you can animate it for him, apply to timdog@colteastwood.

Where has everybody gone, I was having a laugh.
 
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geordiemp said:
Look, why dont you go join team blur, he paints pictures and you can do those animation things and sound things to make a game thingy.

You can be a dev to, just copy the Blue logo and create a web site, they will come and you can be a dev.

We all can be devs. We can be heroes, but just for one day

Dev fishy.
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I might use the the Codfather as my title, a nice buzz word like that will give it more credence.
 
geordiemp said:
Hey this dev has devloped one image, you can join Teamblur today and be a developer if you can animate it for him, apply to timdog@colteastwood.

Where has everybody gone, I was having a laugh.
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sircaw said:
I might use the the Codfather as my title, a nice buzz word like that will give it more credence.
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I like how people think they are really smart because they participate in the Next Gen Speculation thread.
 
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geordiemp said:
Teamblurr are not a developer, he just pains images and wants soemone to animate them. He is just a 1 man painter in his bedroom. Oh my sides.

pDUDVVm.png



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I have an indie studio, which was created while working for a very long time in a professionally capacity, due to me becoming ill. I can't do everything all by myself, because who can animate, model, texture, code, do sound design etc? And yet you think this some how makes my experience any less qualified to answer questions, or chat about tech? I love the fact you think I'm a painter in my bedroom. This is brilliant. I wish I was.

But please, continue to run rings around everything just to avoid the actual topic of discussion, because, I dunno, you seem to feel threatened that it's not pro Sony? I dont know, what exactly is your angle here with this post?

Essentially you appear to be trolling, again, another thread that talks anything positive about Xbox. To the point you even stalk my own forums, which aren't even active, for ammo. Sounds a little... insecure to me?
 
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