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[geordiemp]

Gaming is just my hobby, and because my knowledge in regards to coding is limited I'm not going to pretend I know everything about SFS and argue about it.

Because you are making fun from Odium and his programming skills (you are making fun even from his health and wife) let me ask you something, what's your programming credentials? You are criticizing not only Odium but also MS engineers, so I guess you must be a software developer with many years of experience?

I was not making fun of his health, I only said maybe his wife is the partner in his studio, I did not make fun of his wife either/

Also list which MS engineers I critisised ?

My profession is not for a forum thanks, I am hear for fun, but enjoy discssion especially hardware and technology.

 

[pasterpl]

Gaming is just my hobby, and because my knowledge in regards to coding is limited I'm not going to pretend I know everything about SFS and argue about it.

Because you are making fun from Odium and his programming skills (you are making fun even from his health and wife) let me ask you something, what's your programming credentials? You are criticizing not only Odium but also MS engineers, so I guess you must be a software developer with many years of experience?

he is probably Tim sweeny alter ego, earning his $250M layouty from Sony. Such a persistency of shitting in Xbox threads is really impressive, but if done for free, just sad.

/s

 

[geordiemp]

he is probably Tim sweeny alter ego, earning his $250M layouty from Sony. Such a persistency of shitting in Xbox threads is really impressive, but if done for free, just sad.

/s

Its not an xbox thread, its an XSX vs ps5 IO comparison thread I recall from the OP.

 

[J_Gamer.exe]

Interesting James uses the phrase 'fine grained' as that is exact same phrase Granite use to describe their advanced texture streaming middleware used all this generation:

Granite SDK Interview: Delivering Next-Gen Texture streaming And Compression Middleware

gamingbolt.com

Now I don't doubt SFS is nice addition to the SDK/middleware tool kit, but it really isn't a revolution from what I can tell and I'm sure all platforms will benefit from the same or similar.

SFS as James says takes what the above description of Granite explains is done this gen and then goes a little further and uses only part of a mip (rather than all) further saving RAM/time etc.

That is how I read and understand it.

Looks like the milkman has delivered again.

The question is will Sony 1st party bother using it if its super fast anyway? Will a third part dev use it on both if its only needed on xbox to get closer to PS5.

If the PS5 can do something similar but just doesn't need the blending bit as it's fast enough, then I want to see it using every available trick.

Surely Sony are smart enough with all the optimisations, no bottlenecks and geometry culling angles etc to utilise this and not let their r and d hardware advantage just be given away?

Thoughts THE:MILKMAN and geordiemp

 

[pasterpl]

"Let's have fun?" mate I'm done with you. Utterly stupid you are even trying to turn things around like this. You appear in every thread that has anything Xbox related in it, and continue to shit it up.

I haven't got the time. I was gonna just let it be, as I hate blocking people on here. But man, you just continue to shit threads up. Toodles.

Beauty of this forum is that we all are eventually being told that we don't know what we are talking about, even if subject of the conversation is the thing we do for a living. (Happened to myself last month). Lesson here is that you should Try not to take notice of trolling of any kind (I know, easier said then done). I've never used the ignore function here, as for me discussion board should allow all opinions and comments, even if they are utterly stupid.

and there are lots of users here that appreciate you input into these conversations, so please don't let the trolls drive you out

 

[pawel86ck]

I was not making fun of his health, I only said maybe his wife is the partner in his studio, I did not make fun of his health. That is unfair.#

Also list which MS engineers I critisised, I quoted goosen, good stuff.

My profession is not for a forum thanks.

That's what I thought. You have no programming credentials so all you can do is just pretending you know something.

Maybe what you wrote in next gen thread about Odium programming skills, his wife and health is not a joke from your perspective but it reads like a joke from my perspective. All what Odium did is offer his possitive and professional perspective on Velocity Architecture and it was enough to trigger you. Man, you are really sick and soulless person and I really hope mods will start paying attention to your behavior.

 

[geordiemp]

That's what I thought, so you have no programming credentials and just pretending you know something.

Maybe what you wrote in next gen thread about Odium programming skills, his wife and health is not a joke from your perspective but it reads like a joke from my perspective. All what Odium did is offer his possitive and professional perspective on Velocity Architecture and it was enough to trigger you. Man, you are really sick and soulless person and I really hope mods will start paying attention to your behavior.

I did not say I have no hardware and software credentials, I said I would not share them on a forum or my real name and place of work, and yes I am a professional engineer but not in gaming and yes I have designed hardware / software but not gaming and make no developer claims. Thankyou.

I was happy to debate SFS with odium and started a technical discussion (at his request) but he then said he did not have time.

So goodnight.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Yeah like, the ones praising PS5 SSD without actually seeing the console with their own eyes. Oh wait...

Thus far I've only given credit to devs with access. That's where the buck stops.

Indie devs with no access and no work done on either devkit can go on Twitter and fanboy over either one for all I care.

And the thing about forum posters is that what they say doesn't come from a place of authority, but from a place of curiosity. When a indie dev talks, he's coming from a place of authority.

This dude can talk like authority when he gets access and works on the devkits, until then he should stay out of it. But usually fanboys can't stay out.

 

[Mercenary09]

This guy was banned from that other site for being a console warrior. Sorry but I'm not going to take anything he says about Xbox Series X vs PS5 as legit. The guy is a Xbox fanboy through and through.

 

[carloseduardocd]

SFS can load the visible part of the mipmap.. ok.

But, in the Unreal Engine 5 presentation couple days before, they saw the tech-demo was using only 768mb RAM for all entire billions of triangles in SSD, filtering visible parts.

Does it smells the same? What's the difference?

 

[geordiemp]

SFS can load the visible part of the mipmap.. ok.

But, in the Unreal Engine 5 presentation couple days before, they saw the tech-demo was using only 768mb RAM for all entire billions of triangles in SSD, filtering visible parts.

Does it smells the same? What's the difference?

Nanite is MUCH more complex as its not simple mipmaps and there will be no LODs either, and yes all of this has been superceded already and its coming to all consoles and PC.

Go read up up Ganite middleware if you want to see deja vu

 

[Gavin Stevens]

This guy was banned from that other site for being a console warrior. Sorry but I'm not going to take anything he says about Xbox Series X vs PS5 as legit. The guy is a Xbox fanboy through and through.

Banned for a week for calling Jason out on his Sony ways? That actual thread I was helping people out until too. Sure thing boss.

There's an awful lot of people posting negative stuff in here, when the actual twitter thread was just an explanation on how shit works. I could have posted about my toaster works too, but I have a feeling it wouldn't wind anybody up as it wasn't made by Microsoft.

Guys just chill. It's an explanation. If this triggers you THAT much then maybe the internet isn't for you?

Anyway back to the topic, an additional:



Essentially what this means Is that SFS is only loading part of the mip map, whatever is visible, again cutting down massively on resources required.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Looks like the milkman has delivered again.

The question is will Sony 1st party bother using it if its super fast anyway? Will a third part dev use it on both if its only needed on xbox to get closer to PS5.

If the PS5 can do something similar but just doesn't need the blending bit as it's fast enough, then I want to see it using every available trick.

Surely Sony are smart enough with all the optimisations, no bottlenecks and geometry culling angles etc to utilise this and not let their r and d hardware advantage just be given away?

Thoughts THE:MILKMAN and geordiemp

Not sure about that....Just giving my non-tech expert interpretation of the info available. SFS seems like a nice addition as I've said a few times but it seems to me it is being over hyped unfairly by the usual Twitter accounts. It has to be said Microsoft don't really help here either with how they are marketing it. Just fuels the arguments IMO.

At least next week we get to see and talk about games at last....

 

[RoadHazard]

I don't see why the PS5 couldn't do this? And even if it can't, this only closes the IO speed gap in certain aspects.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

At least next week we get to see and talk about games at last....

THIS I can agree on, and I really hope MS knock it out the park. Healthy competition leads to everybody improving, and we are the ones that reap the benefits.

 

[pawel86ck]

I'm seeing things or James Stanard himself is responding to Odium tweet and confirming what he wrote about SFS?

 

[Allandor]

SFS can load the visible part of the mipmap.. ok.

But, in the Unreal Engine 5 presentation couple days before, they saw the tech-demo was using only 768mb RAM for all entire billions of triangles in SSD, filtering visible parts.

Does it smells the same? What's the difference?

No, that is not the same. Here the RAW SSD speed was used to load all visible textures (as far as we know ... and btw, the 768 may not include the texture cache). Without the technology like SFS all 8k Textures for the statue have to load (e.g. maybe they get tiled down) and be inside of the RAM. With SFS only those parts, that are really needed in the next x frames will be loaded and not the whole thing. Just as an example: if you only need 10MB of the 80MB texture, only those 10MB will be loaded. Without such a technology, you need to load the whole 80MB into memory and than the GPU can decide just to use 10MB of it but you wasted 70MB worth of bandwidth, just for that texture.

 

[-Arcadia-]

FFS.

Why does it always have to turn into this negative, hateful bullshit?

If you disagree with the OP, fine, hash that out and give us all a fantastic conversation to follow. Don't give us misery.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I don't see why the PS5 couldn't do this? And even if it can't, this only closes the IO speed gap in certain aspects.

Thing is we still don't know everything about the PS5 I/O block (I don't think..?) e.g. the I/O block is contained within the APU but what clocks does it all run at? The GPU or CPU clock or various clocks per I/O element?

Maybe a dumb question but I would still like to read about these kind of tech details.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

No, that is not the same. Here the RAW SSD speed was used to load all visible textures (as far as we know ... and btw, the 768 may not include the texture cache). Without the technology like SFS all 8k Textures for the statue have to load (e.g. maybe they get tiled down) and be inside of the RAM. With SFS only those parts, that are really needed in the next x frames will be loaded and not the whole thing. Just as an example: if you only need 10MB of the 80MB texture, only those 10MB will be loaded. Without such a technology, you need to load the whole 80MB into memory and than the GPU can decide just to use 10MB of it but you wasted 70MB worth of bandwidth, just for that texture.

That's my understanding yes, and you can see why this is a big thing, because while of course you're not going to magically increase the IO speed, if you need to load much less data into memory (and remember that texture data, more important high resolution texture data, is the biggest killer here), then it stands to reason you can get away with a slower speed.

It won't fix ALL problems, of course not. But then, Sonys improvements won't fix ALL problems to bridge the 2tf gap. Hence why they will produce quite similar results, with a few exceptions as previously discussed.

 

[geordiemp]

No, that is not the same. Here the RAW SSD speed was used to load all visible textures (as far as we know ... and btw, the 768 may not include the texture cache). Without the technology like SFS all 8k Textures for the statue have to load (e.g. maybe they get tiled down) and be inside of the RAM. With SFS only those parts, that are really needed in the next x frames will be loaded and not the whole thing. Just as an example: if you only need 10MB of the 80MB texture, only those 10MB will be loaded. Without such a technology, you need to load the whole 80MB into memory and than the GPU can decide just to use 10MB of it but you wasted 70MB worth of bandwidth, just for that texture.

Thats not how nanite works, 768 was the streaming pool with no info on the refresh and prefetch, so 768 mb is a dynamic changing pool where we dont know the rate of change. Could be every frame but unlikely = we dont know as EPIC have not shared the streaming rates or latency required..

BUt there is no lod, there are no mipmaps....

 

[Gavin Stevens]

That guy knows shit. Has no devkits, no controllers, was banned on other sites and calls playstation ''enemy''. Don't listen to this biased fucker.

I call PlayStation what now? Maybe I said that in response to something else, but why would I call them my enemy? I think you've misunderstood something there.

As already mentioned, I'm not banned at the other site, singular.

What are you even on about? Also how does ANY of that have to do with the technology discussion at hand, which has been backed up by microsofts engineers in that very twitter thread?

 

[30yearsofhurt]

The PS5 SSD is faster than the series X. Of that, there is absolutely nobody with a brain who will tell you otherwise.

Not that there's a lack of those.

 

[Jason28]

This guy was banned from that other site for being a console warrior. Sorry but I'm not going to take anything he says about Xbox Series X vs PS5 as legit. The guy is a Xbox fanboy through and through.

Ha, i knew it the same day i got in conversation with him. He smells green ogre from a mile, has no relevant information, and is a console warrior. He was blocked by Jason, btw.
How can you trust any information from a biased source.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

Ha, i knew it the same day i got in conversation with him. He smells green ogre from a mile, has no relevant information, and is a console warrior. We was blocked by Jason, btw, and for good.

EVERYBODY is blocked by Jason

I smell green? Absolutely. I make no secret I prefer Xbox to PlayStation. I still have both. Hell, this very moment I'm on paper Mario. And? Does the fact I like one more than the other (despite owning all) mean what I said has any less weight? Even with it being backed up by the very engineers who worked on the tech...?

Once again, a thread has just nose dived because people can't just act like human beings. It's stupid, absolutely stupid.

Guys you all post what you want, feel free. Anybody has any questionsmy twitter and DMs are open. I'll be posting in other threads here of course but I think my brain can only take so much of this stupidity. Cheers for the discussion, those who actually bothered.

 

[Jason28]

EVERYBODY is blocked by Jason

I am not because i don't get angry when someone says good things about Playstation.
Xbox will never be as fast as PS5, it's time to let it go, let it die in piece, don't touch the grave.

 

[Dory16]

Banned for a week for calling Jason out on his Sony ways? That actual thread I was helping people out until too. Sure thing boss.

There's an awful lot of people posting negative stuff in here, when the actual twitter thread was just an explanation on how shit works. I could have posted about my toaster works too, but I have a feeling it wouldn't wind anybody up as it wasn't made by Microsoft.

Guys just chill. It's an explanation. If this triggers you THAT much then maybe the internet isn't for you?

Anyway back to the topic, an additional:



Essentially what this means Is that SFS is only loading part of the mip map, whatever is visible, again cutting down massively on resources required.

Thanks for your input Gavin, it's much appreciated. Don't be confused about the fact that this forum is not only made of career device crusaders only waiting for an opportunity to make themselves the topic whenever the topic doesn't turn in favour of the PS5. Gerdiemp is literally the PS5's messiah, he would give his life for it not appear for what it really is.

Your only mistake has been to break down for everybody the mystery around the XVA component that has fed one of the longest console war debates on this forum . There is a 57 pages long thread about XVA full of triggered fiends who set themselves on fire at the idea of Xbox being able to compete in the I/O department in addition to taking the cake in all the other areas that matter. Guess who would be sending you flowers right now if you had instead explained how variable clocks are actually better than fixed? the same Geordiemp.
And just to make clear to you that drive by trolling is condoned and protected by this forum's administration when it goes into their preferred direction, you should know that Geordiemp has been reported and the response from the mods was : "report him again if it continues". How far does a Sony troll has to go to be a troll? They're probably waiting for him to send Phil Spencer a parcel bomb before banning him for 2 days. Guess who would have been permanently banned right now if he was saying in a PS5 thread that he disputes the sustainability of the PS5's 10TF (something that objectively ought to be disputed)? the same Geordiemp.

So laugh at it and continue to inform the masses, objective ears appreciate.

 

[Allandor]

Thats not how nanite works, 768 was the streaming pool with no info on the refresh and prefetch, so 768 mb is a dynamic changing pool where we dont know the rate of change. Could be every frame but unlikely = we dont know as EPIC have not shared the streaming rates or latency required..

BUt there is no lod, there are no mipmaps....

That does not really make a difference. SFS (also includes tiling) also works without Mipmapping. As only visible Parts of the texture (and meshes) are loaded. And btw, no usind Mip Mapping brings much bigger problems. And epic told us in the interview, the developer does not need to define those things, but not that nanite wouldn't use them.

 

[geordiemp]

That does not really make a difference. SFS (also includes tiling) also works without Mipmapping. As only visible Parts of the texture (and meshes) are loaded. And btw, no usind Mip Mapping brings much bigger problems. And epic told us in the interview, the developer does not need to define those things, but not that nanite wouldn't use them.

SFS and Nanite - receipts - Links ?

Or is this your guess ? I dont agree.

 

[Jason28]

What's next, listening to timdog bullshit ? No thanks, we need objective information, no biased -console warrior sources with no access to devkits.

 

[J_Gamer.exe]

Not sure about that....Just giving my non-tech expert interpretation of the info available. SFS seems like a nice addition as I've said a few times but it seems to me it is being over hyped unfairly by the usual Twitter accounts. It has to be said Microsoft don't really help here either with how they are marketing it. Just fuels the arguments IMO.

At least next week we get to see and talk about games at last....

Well it looks like that granite from way back when was doing similar so this magical new advantage people claim is not quite what it seems....

I kinda wish PS marketing had an outlet for regular tidbits with their ear to the ground. Ok there are some but...

It'd be so easy they would be like... ok MS is gaining ground with its SFS. We know we can use similar and shut this down before it even started. A simple tweet saying PS5 will support and use x similar solution + explanation. This would immediately kick the chair from underneath the competition but yet the stay back and quiet a bit too often.

 

[ZehDon]

Ok, I think we knew most of this, but good to see it laid out so clearly. For me, the real take away is developer confirmation that the PS5 doesn't have a SFS equivalent. This has knock on effects. With it's SSD speed, the PS5 might not need a SFS strategy for loading textures, but it does mean its RAM pool will be less effectively utilised. If it still needs to load the full quality texture where the XSX doesn't, the exact makeup of the XSX's RAM at any given moment is going to be far more efficient.

 

[geordiemp]

What's next, listening to timdog bullshit ? No thanks, we need objective information, no biased -console warrior sources with no access to devkits.

SFS is making Nanite run better now, have you not heard ? /s

Its getting silly, I am out.

 

[Optimistic Gamer]

This is from Watchdogs a few years ago for ps4 and xb1....does it sound familiar.

Really sad this post didnt get a response from what I saw. It completely invalidates the whole discussion if true?

 

[geordiemp]

Really sad this post didnt get a response from what I saw. It completely invalidates the whole discussion if true?

Nobody wants to discuss valid comparisons to prior art, funny that isnt it ? from 2014 as well lol.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

What's next, listening to timdog bullshit ? No thanks, we need objective information, no biased -console warrior sources with no access to devkits.

This 100x.

This is a fun story but ultimately meaningless.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

It's really not in any shape or form LODs for textures. It's only and specifically loading only the mip levels that are actually used. It's a memory optimization, not a visual one.

The visual is the end result, most likely where the savings from optimisation will get spent.

 

[geordiemp]

This 100x.

This is a fun story but ultimately meaningless.

But hold, new secret sauce....

Oops, thats ps4 manual lol

 

[Great Hair]

this forum is not only made of career device crusaders only waiting for an opportunity to make themselves the topic whenever the topic doesn't turn in favour of the PS5. Gerdiemp is literally the PS5's messiah, he would give his life for it not appear for what it really is.

Thought this was frown upon here. The name calling, the NYOSFGA part.

 

[Andodalf]

But hold, new secret sauce....

Oops, thats ps4 manual lol

Hmm. I recently read about how PS5 will change games with its built in storage! Oh wait, that was about the Wii U. Both have internal storage so they must be the exact same! There's no way things can sound even somewhat similar, and not be the same.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Sony bruteforced their solution while MS created a more sophisticated system, that is better balanced across the board

I don't know if that's true because Sony had to set up a pretty sophisticated system to reach those speeds with their I/O. Cerny talked about it alot in the road to PS5 presentation and I wouldn't call Sonys I/O simple by any means.

 

[geordiemp]

Thought this was frown upon here. The name calling, the NYOSFGA part.

I just ignore the people who cannot engage and go personal, its all they are capable of in most cases. At least he did not call my mom names.

 

[sonomamashine]

Lets join that team blurr guy and we can animate a fish across his 1 screen.....We can use PRT+ so we only use the mipmap in view Frustum.

The sadest person on the forum, the cult must be proud of you.

 

[Dory16]

Thought this was frown upon here. The name calling, the NYOSFGA part.

One person is allowed to single handedly derail the thread. I don't see your reply colouring and magnifying his comments.

 

[geordiemp]

One person is allowed to single handedly derail the thread. I don't see your reply colouring and magnifying his comments.

If someone wants to claim XSX will catch ps5 SSD speed, he can expect it to be challenged which is what happened.

Thats not derailing, I challenged and disagreed and asked for technical debate, all on the subject.

Look up what derailing means.

Anyway, I will ingnore you, I recall you just insult and dont debate anything. Bye.

 

[Dory16]

If someone wants to claim XSX will catch ps5 SSD speed, he can expect it to be challenged which is what happened.

Thats not derailing, I challenged and disagreed and asked for technical debate, all on the subject.

Look up what derailing means.

Lets join that team blurr guy and we can animate a fish across his 1 screen.....We can use PRT+ so we only use the mipmap in view Frustum.

I rest my case.

 

[itsjustJEFF]

Yea... they're both very fast. Two console makers, went in two different directions. Two very well engineered machines. They took different routes, but they'll end up in about the same place. This generation was pretty much the same as well. The best looking One game are pretty much on par with the best PS4 game and vice versa. The issue seems to stem from the people who can't come to terms with this. The other box has to lesser than my box. The boxes are different.

I don't think there has been a generation where the 3 consoles makers, yes I'm including Nintendo, have gone in their own direction doing their own thing. Nintendo is doing their own thing, PS is doing their thing, and now finally Xbox is doing their own thing. Xbox was always trying to beat PS at their own game, instead of doing their own thing. If Xbox can keep doing their own thing I think they'll do very well this coming generation.

 

[pawel86ck]

This guy was banned from that other site for being a console warrior. Sorry but I'm not going to take anything he says about Xbox Series X vs PS5 as legit. The guy is a Xbox fanboy through and through.

Everybody here knows resetera mods are banning decent people for no real reason. If you arent banned on resetera it means there's something wrong with you. Odium was banned on resetera? It only tells me he is not afraid to post honest comments.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

I was banned (temp) on era because I said I didn't like Jason S as he had blocked me on twitter for not being part of his echo chamber. He then pops up, posts why he blocked me (over barely nothing as usual) and then posts a follow up tweet I made after the fact, as proof of... something, where I insult him in a tweet (that he couldn't see as he blocked me anyway, so clearly he goes looking for this stuff) All off site drama I may add, in the middle of a thread where I'm explaining things and helping being thanked for it, while ignoring obviously fangirls who don't like it. So much the same as what went on here.

The mods on their infinite wisdom saw it as me being the problem.

To be fair, it's era. I wasn't surprised which side they would take. Does it really shock anybody?

 

[Nikana]

Man I was kidding when I said Daniels Alt...but fuck I was right.