Your thoughts on Calvinism?

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GAF's Nicest Lunch Thief and Nosiest Dildo Archeologist
Let's face it.. Calvinism has spread like wildfire into a lot of our churches. Its gotten so bad that almost all of us personally know someone from our church who is a Calvinist , even if you don't attend a Calvinist church. I've read websites that estimate that nearly 30% of preachers in America are Calvinist , and this does not include those who accept the 5 points of Calvinism but " don't like the label". Now.....whether the percentage is that high or not , the fact is Calvinism is big right now. So what's your opinion? Do you think Calvinism has caught up to Christianity in sheer numbers or do you think there are still more Christians in our churches than Calvinists? Me.. I'm not sure .

To sum it up, John Calvin based it all on an idea that God's will will be done in all cases. He elects some, and because of his election they will be in heaven one day, whether they want to or not, no matter what they do in life. Others, according to Calvin, are by God's free choice, destined to be damned, and there is no chance for their salvation, no matter what they do. I don't claim to be a Calvinist expert, but I think I have it pretty close.
 
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Calvinism is yet another useless Christianity DLC. Catholicism, Calvinism, etc all add a layer of fanfiction content on top of a very simple religion. I suppose it is an important concept in Christianity that its parables are lost on the arrogant and indeed this is how you get dudes in fancy robes and big hats who say "call me Father" in a religion that says "call no man on Earth Father," and Calvinists with the tautological predestination whereby if you adhere to it, they figure that must be because it was predestined in the first place.
 
On a more serious note:
I had been christened catholic after birth, so I didn't have a choice. I left Christianity 20 years ago, after reading up a bit on it.
This stuff didn't make sense to me.
Especially as a western European, I don't get why I should live by something thought up by some middle eastern farmers and shepherds 4000 years ago when we have our own local rites and traditions.

That said, calvinism seem to me like the assholish no fun allowed version of Christianity compared to catholicism, which is Christianity combined with local pagan rites (for acceptance) and a few other stupid things tacked on like that super weird Trinity concept.
 
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Vier said:
Let's face it.. Calvinism has spread like wildfire into a lot of our churches. Its gotten so bad that almost all of us personally know someone from our church who is a Calvinist , even if you don't attend a Calvinist church. I've read websites that estimate that nearly 30% of preachers in America are Calvinist , and this does not include those who accept the 5 points of Calvinism but " don't like the label". Now.....whether the percentage is that high or not , the fact is Calvinism is big right now. So what's your opinion? Do you think Calvinism has caught up to Christianity in sheer numbers or do you think there are still more Christians in our churches than Calvinists? Me.. I'm not sure .

To sum it up, John Calvin based it all on an idea that God's will will be done in all cases. He elects some, and because of his election they will be in heaven one day, whether they want to or not, no matter what they do in life. Others, according to Calvin, are by God's free choice, destined to be damned, and there is no chance for their salvation, no matter what they do. I don't claim to be a Calvinist expert, but I think I have it pretty close.
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What's the point of doing any good if it's already determined who is saved and who is damned regardless of what you do?
 
Let me also enter in the Calvinist "TULIP" concept:

T = Total depravity. Man is entirely sinful by nature and is unable to save himself. This is correct.

U = Unconditional grace. God gives us his grace without any merit or worthiness in us. Again this is correct.

L = Limited atonement. Christ's death was not credited to all people, but only to those chosen for salvation. This is unscriptural.

I = Irresistible grace. People cannot resist God's saving grace, which is offered only to the elect. This is incorrect because God's grace is sincerely offered to all. It is their fault if they reject it.

P = Perseverance of the saints. It is impossible to fall from faith. This too is false.
 
Darkmakaimura said:
What's the point of doing any good if it's already determined who is saved and who is damned regardless of what you do?
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Some of them get around it by still encouraging people to do good and then claiming it was predestined for things to happen that way, i.e. for the message to be received by those people and for them to heed it.

The house always wins.
 
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Stiflers Mom said:
On a more serious note:
I had been christened catholic after birth, so I didn't have a choice. I left Christianity 20 years ago, after reading up a bit on it.
This stuff didn't make sense to me.
Especially as a western European, I don't get why I should live by something thought up by some middle eastern farmers and shepherds 4000 years ago when we have our own local rites and traditions.

That said, calvinism seem to me like the assholish no fun allowed version of Christianity compared to catholicism, which is Christianity combined with local pagan rites (for acceptance) and a few other stupid things tacked on like that super weird Trinity concept.
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Don't forget confession Jesus's get out of jail free card ;) I haven't been to mass either since my very catholic grandma passed but I still have her rosary as an insurance policy.
 
MrMephistoX said:
Don't forget confession Jesus's get out of jail free card ;)
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Ah, yeah. Forgot about that one.
Tell some old pedophile about "bad" stuff, so you won't be thrown into some imagined place where someone that doesn't exist might torture you.

Had to do that last time when I was nine years old, and it was horror. I knew that priest because he was our teacher for religion as well in our school.
Yeah, I definitely want to tell that asshole that I already wanked or stole some sweets from my neighbors kids kitchen table.
 
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Let me also focus on the Ephesians 1 , because a lot of Calvinists love to use this as a prooftext for their theology. When Paul talks about "we" being predestined to glory and such , the "we " he is talking the apostles ( him, Peter, John, ect....) . This is why in verse 13 , he switches from "we" to " you" stating to the Ephesians " and you ALSO when you believes were sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit. " Therefore , the Calvinist argument for Ephesians 1 is null and void and many studies of the original Greek scriptures confirm the change in pattern in verse 13.

Case closed.
 
Calvinism = Provided some ideological and conceptual roots for marxism.

"Work will set you free".

Not a fan of Calvinism, of all the Christian variants it is the one I least respect.
 
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Vier said:
Let's face it.. Calvinism has spread like wildfire into a lot of our churches. Its gotten so bad that almost all of us personally know someone from our church who is a Calvinist , even if you don't attend a Calvinist church. I've read websites that estimate that nearly 30% of preachers in America are Calvinist , and this does not include those who accept the 5 points of Calvinism but " don't like the label". Now.....whether the percentage is that high or not , the fact is Calvinism is big right now. So what's your opinion? Do you think Calvinism has caught up to Christianity in sheer numbers or do you think there are still more Christians in our churches than Calvinists? Me.. I'm not sure .

To sum it up, John Calvin based it all on an idea that God's will will be done in all cases. He elects some, and because of his election they will be in heaven one day, whether they want to or not, no matter what they do in life. Others, according to Calvin, are by God's free choice, destined to be damned, and there is no chance for their salvation, no matter what they do. I don't claim to be a Calvinist expert, but I think I have it pretty close.
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You'll probably get more traction on the subject over at the Christianity OT thread, honestly.

I'm personally not a huge fan of Calvinist tradition; I don't ascribe to predestination and the obvious can of worms that presents in regard to free will. I think that Lutheranism "rings more true" to me, in this case. In the region where I live, most churches are Calvinist, due to the majority ethnic group that lives here, so I've attended quite a few services of theirs. I don't think Calvinism in general is as popular or big as what you are proposing in your first paragraph, though. I'm not sure why you differentiate "Christians/Calvinists"; I am assuming you are referring to Protestants that follow Lutheranism as "Christians" when you say that?
 
Vier said:
Let's face it.. Calvinism has spread like wildfire into a lot of our churches. Its gotten so bad that almost all of us personally know someone from our church who is a Calvinist , even if you don't attend a Calvinist church. I've read websites that estimate that nearly 30% of preachers in America are Calvinist , and this does not include those who accept the 5 points of Calvinism but " don't like the label". Now.....whether the percentage is that high or not , the fact is Calvinism is big right now. So what's your opinion? Do you think Calvinism has caught up to Christianity in sheer numbers or do you think there are still more Christians in our churches than Calvinists? Me.. I'm not sure .

To sum it up, John Calvin based it all on an idea that God's will will be done in all cases. He elects some, and because of his election they will be in heaven one day, whether they want to or not, no matter what they do in life. Others, according to Calvin, are by God's free choice, destined to be damned, and there is no chance for their salvation, no matter what they do. I don't claim to be a Calvinist expert, but I think I have it pretty close.
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I don't talk openly my beliefs on GAF as that seems kinda taboo. Let's just say I'm a simple Biblical person. I know quite a bit about other sects and cults that try to pass as Christianity. Calvinism is something in which Salvation is impossible. So, Salvation means you're saved no matter how bad you screw up based on the Bible. John Calvin had a rival who taught the opposite; therefore as a rebuttal he established T.U.L.I.P.
Part of that acronym is the part about how only a select few on Earth could/would be saved. Then another part says that if you sin one time; you lose your Salvation and basically have to earn it back. Dive deeper into Calvinism and you'll find parallels to similar cults like Adventists and J.W.'s
 
Limited atonement, that Jesus didn't die for everyone's sins, is straight up heretical IMO. Calvinism twists Scripture to say what they want it to say, and ends up with something that is both offensive to God and offputting to people.
 
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I was raised in a Calvinist church. It took a while for me to separate out the good ideas from the destructive ones. It's really not that different from material determinism vs free will debates. The answer is pointless in practice and it really isn't worth spending a ton of time thinking about it.

I've since move away from a lot of the dogma of church generally. But I do find that there is a lot of good in things I learned in that church, just not this aspect of it.
 
Aren't the # of religious-affiliated folks in the U.S. declining rapidly?

Maybe not so much they don't believe in God(s), but just make no adherence to a religion.

I find myself in that boat. I believe in the concept of spirituality and a higher power, but it most definitely isn't some dude (eternal beings don't need genitalia first off, lol) in the sky.

*it appears Calvinism is one of those "god picked the special ones and you have no clue if you're it" subsects... I never got that... wasn't Jesus' entire message of salvation through admission of guilt and belief in Him/God? Kind of nullifies the entire thing.
 
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smorgasbird said:
Calvinism is yet another useless Christianity DLC. Catholicism, Calvinism, etc all add a layer of fanfiction content on top of a very simple religion. I suppose it is an important concept in Christianity that its parables are lost on the arrogant and indeed this is how you get dudes in fancy robes and big hats who say "call me Father" in a religion that says "call no man on Earth Father," and Calvinists with the tautological predestination whereby if you adhere to it, they figure that must be because it was predestined in the first place.
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How is Catholicism DLC when its more than half the content? Is this Train Simulator?
 
QuantumZebra said:
Aren't the # of religious-affiliated folks in the U.S. declining rapidly?

Maybe not so much they don't believe in God(s), but just make no adherence to a religion.

I find myself in that boat. I believe in the concept of spirituality and a higher power, but it most definitely isn't some dude (eternal beings don't need genitalia first off, lol) in the sky.

*it appears Calvinism is one of those "god picked the special ones and you have no clue if you're it" subsects... I never got that... wasn't Jesus' entire message of salvation through admission of guilt and belief in Him/God? Kind of nullifies the entire thing.
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It's pretty simple. If you believe in Him - you're saved. The sinner part is something that one wants to turn away from to receive Grace (Salvation) freely by Faith. Religion on the other hand always adds to this. For example: say 50 Hail Mary's and 100 Our Father's and you'll be good for about 6-months; or try to become sinless and repent your way out of your sins to gain back God's trust. The reason people hate it so much is because people have to be so bloody religious and there's always some added doctrine.
 
Vier said:
Let's face it.. Calvinism has spread like wildfire into a lot of our churches. Its gotten so bad that almost all of us personally know someone from our church who is a Calvinist , even if you don't attend a Calvinist church. I've read websites that estimate that nearly 30% of preachers in America are Calvinist , and this does not include those who accept the 5 points of Calvinism but " don't like the label". Now.....whether the percentage is that high or not , the fact is Calvinism is big right now. So what's your opinion? Do you think Calvinism has caught up to Christianity in sheer numbers or do you think there are still more Christians in our churches than Calvinists? Me.. I'm not sure .

To sum it up, John Calvin based it all on an idea that God's will will be done in all cases. He elects some, and because of his election they will be in heaven one day, whether they want to or not, no matter what they do in life. Others, according to Calvin, are by God's free choice, destined to be damned, and there is no chance for their salvation, no matter what they do. I don't claim to be a Calvinist expert, but I think I have it pretty close.
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I view calvinism in the same way as I view the thousands of other protestant denominations. Very little regard for them.
 
I was probably 100% Calvinist but now I'm kinda like at 80%.

I love a lot of the in depth study and logic that plays into a lot of Calvinistic churches. Those churches tend to analyze using the historical-grammatical context, tend to preach through books of the Bible and not whatever latest popular "help your finances" 6 week series, and don't buy into really any of the charismatic stuff that I've never been a fan about.

The biggest blind spots are a sense of total damnation for competing doctrines, a miserable and strict reading of the Bible, lack of emphasis of personal grace (not that I agree with carnal Christianity), and a disregard for the time period between 300 and 1500 AD. Like I'm sorry if I don't buy that nearly everyone for 1200 years is doomed to damnation because the Catholics were in charge. That doesn't really gel with the more obvious larger patterns of the growth of Christianity and its global spread.
 
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QuantumZebra said:
I find myself in that boat. I believe in the concept of spirituality and a higher power, but it most definitely isn't some dude (eternal beings don't need genitalia first off, lol) in the sky.
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Good news.
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
— John 4:24
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I encourage everyone to read the gospel of John (and eventually the rest of the New Testament). There are a lot of meme level misconceptions that are easily resolved from reading.

Calvinism is similar. No one would come away with that perception from just reading the Bible. There's plenty wrong with Arminianism too. Things like this cause division with no benefit, IMO.
 
MrMephistoX said:
Don't forget confession Jesus's get out of jail free card ;) I haven't been to mass either since my very catholic grandma passed but I still have her rosary as an insurance policy.
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Confession is insane. Murder someone? Just tell your local priest and the taint of sin is washed away. No one is going to change "sinful" habits without the hard work needed for change. Confession is too easy and too convenient.
 
crozier said:
Confession is insane. Murder someone? Just tell your local priest and the taint of sin is washed away. No one is going to change "sinful" habits without the hard work needed for change. Confession is too easy and too convenient.
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Some subgroups of Catholicism have a certain number of Hail Marys you need to do for certain offenses. It's like give me 30 pushups Hail Marys and get 12 minutes of rosary time in for good measure.

Incidentally, I'm sure I'm offending people of every worldview with my comments, and it's also very hard to try and express what you think is correct without sounding preachy (and indeed I know I am very far from perfect). But I would proffer that any discussion worth having is going to result in contention, and people who never argue are creepy and kind of sycophantic.
 
I don't know too much about theology but, while I see where some of Calvinism is coming from with grace and being called, I just think there's too many entreaties throughout scripture to turn away from sin and seek purity for predestination to be a thing. When our Lord tells people to enter through the narrow gate (Mt 7:13) or that unless we repent we shall perish (Luke 13:3) there's a very clear imperative for proactive choices and agency, that we need to cooperate with the grace that was given us. Catholic doctrine holds that a big part of Mary's assent at the Annunciation is that God wanted salvation to enter the world through a woman's free will in the same way sin entered into the world through a woman's free will.
 
Raised a Catholic, soon after moving to Beijing in my mid teens i just simply lost any thought for any of it and have never even considered it since. I think religion is just a proto science that uses different tools to find truth, it's been superceded.. but i don't hate it or hate people who believe in it, it's just a million miles from my life view.

I do occasionally think about adopting the self discipline based zazen teachings in Japan.. from a purely "use my time better" perspective.

Edit: as for calvinism, it just sounds like a nifty way to source indulgence payments
 
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Raised Catholic myself. Mass every Sunday. Loads of old testament.

Frightened the shit out of me as a kid.

Then I got old enough to tell my Father "No". He was livid.

They have cool stories though, can't deny that.
 
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