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[Plies]

A number of NES games had absolutely brutal difficulty. It's even become a phrase, "Nintendo Hard". So, why were they so hard?

I think they appeared hard because there was no ability to save (for most of the games, some had codes to start at a certain point, or a crude battery that stored the data), so if you "died" in the game you had to start all over again. Now you simply reload at the point you "died", or a dedicated save point, and try again.

Some games however....I still remember "Mike Tyson's Punch Out" (before they dropped his name). Mike Tyson's fist alone was the size of your character.

 

[93xfan]

Games were probably made difficult because it was expected that you would keep replaying it and mastering it due to the limited number of titles out at the time.

 

[Starcheif]

Games were probably made difficult because it was expected that you would keep replaying it and mastering it due to the limited number of titles out at the time.

That what I was going to post. The games needed to be hard because they need to last and challange a player.

 

[cireza]

I read a few times that many games suffered from the "make it harder" treatment in the West to compensate for the rental services that were in place back then. Always wondered if this was actually true.

But I do know for sure that this applies to all Castlevania games. I wonder if this is also the case for the Capcom games.

 

[fart town usa]

not sure what "filtered" means in the context of this thread but yes, my god NES games are insanely difficult.

I probably beat less than 10 games on the console back then. Definitely used cheat codes whenever I could.

 

[Jigsaah]

I still haven't fully beat Ninja Gaiden on the NES. I'm gonna buy the Ninja Gaiden collection just to unlock the original games and beat all of em. I was 7 years old when I kept getting curb stomped by "The Jacquio" boss.

39 now...time for reveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeenge!!!!

EDIT: Nevermind...the master collection does NOT include theoriginal NES games. I'm is sad. Gonna need to do it on Ninja Gaiden Black.

 

[Wooxsvan]

That what I was going to post. The games needed to be hard because they need to last and challange a player.

ya, the games weren't large and a competent player could finish them in a short amount of minutes or hours.

 

[SportsFan581]

That what I was going to post. The games needed to be hard because they need to last and challange a player.

You really notice this when you go back to old games with an emulator. Once you have save states these games immediately feel a lot easier and a lot shorter.

 

[ParaSeoul]

A lot of the harder nes games are also kinda buggy with slowdown

 

[fart town usa]

I read a few times that many games suffered from the "make it harder" treatment in the West to compensate for the rental services that were in place back then. Always wondered if this was actually true.

But I do know for sure that this applies to all Castlevania games. I wonder if this is also the case for the Capcom games.

Definitely applies to OG Resident Evil 1996, tougher enemies, less ink ribbons, no auto-aim...but this is NES, I'm sure the same practices were applied though.

I know the inverse in difficulty was true for Mario games, SMB3 is easier in the NA version. Mario loses his power-up but remains big if you get hit, in the Japanese version 1 hit will make you small.

It's also common knowledge that the OG Mario Bros 2 was too difficult for NA players so instead we got the retooled Doki Doki Panic, which is a stroke of genius IMO. Mario 2 set the standard for how Luigi, Toad, and Princess would control in future releases.

 

[baphomet]

You were expected to play them skillfully, unlike today where most big games are made specifically so literally anyone can finish them.

 

[TexMex]

A lot of the harder nes games are also kinda buggy with slowdown

Agree. Games were definitely harder overall back then, but a lot of that difficulty was artificial.

 

[ParaSeoul]

Definitely applies to OG Resident Evil 1996, tougher enemies, less ink ribbons, no auto-aim...but this is NES, I'm sure the same practices were applied though.

I know the inverse in difficulty was true for Mario games, SMB3 is easier in the NA version. Mario loses his power-up but remains big if you get hit, in the Japanese version 1 hit will make you small.

It's also common knowledge that the OG Mario Bros 2 was too difficult for NA players so instead we got the retooled Doki Doki Panic, which is a stroke of genius IMO. Mario 2 set the standard for how Luigi, Toad, and Princess would control in future releases.

Weird example of a western game changed is Spyro,game speed was slowed down and the camera was changed because apparently the Japanese are really prone to motion sickness.

 

[a multicultural team of v]

Definitely applies to OG Resident Evil 1996, tougher enemies, less ink ribbons, no auto-aim...but this is NES, I'm sure the same practices were applied though.

I know the inverse in difficulty was true for Mario games, SMB3 is easier in the NA version. Mario loses his power-up but remains big if you get hit, in the Japanese version 1 hit will make you small.

It's also common knowledge that the OG Mario Bros 2 was too difficult for NA players so instead we got the retooled Doki Doki Panic, which is a stroke of genius IMO. Mario 2 set the standard for how Luigi, Toad, and Princess would control in future releases.

It is always interesting to see how games change between regions, another good example is that the Japanese version of Donkey Kong Country is significantly easier than NA or EU.

Donkey Kong Country/Regional differences

This following article lists all of the regional differences between the North American, European and Japanese versions of Donkey Kong Country for Super Nintendo Entertainment System. Unlike the European and Japanese versions, it had three different versions (1.0, 1.1 and 1.2). King K. Rool...

donkeykong.fandom.com

 

[nkarafo]

Back then games were made with gamers in mind, who would want to challenge themselves and brag about their achievements with their friends.

Now they are being made for everyone, including people who don't care about games. Most people now want interactive stories.

 

[Spukc]

people used to rent games..
you don't want people to beat a game fast when they are renting .

 

[Orta]

Most of us were kids with the patience of saints when we had our nes consoles. That and we were probably so enthralled by them we couldn't tell a genuinely shit unfair game from a decent one so stuck with them.

Incidentally I beat every single game on mine, though I only had it for 18 months. All 3 Mario games, Double Dragon, TMNT, Snake Rattle & Roll and Batman. There isn't a chance I'd persevere with them now in their original forms though. Mario 2 aside that is.

 

[jshackles]

The value proposition for games back then were based on challenge. If you made a game that had a hefty challenge (but a gradual learning curve) then you'd have a hit game that everyone would want to play. It's why Super Mario Bros gets progressively more difficult as you advance in levels - but the idea is that you learn to play better as you advance. Games were literally marketed on how difficult they were.

NES games in particular were mostly modeling themselves off of what was popular in arcades. Arcade games were meant to be challenging because the more often you'd die / have to restart, the more money you'd have to pump into it and the more money the machine was worth to arcade owners.

 

[RoboFu]

what's interesting is when I try to play nes games using new controllers ( mainly wireless) I suck, but playing on a wired nes it's like I never stopped playing them.
I gather that my reflex memory doesn't work well with the input delay of wireless controllers.

 

[InfiniteCombo]

I play a fair number of Japanese imports and I can't help but feel that games were sometimes made purposely harder in the west.

Classic Resident Evils and classic Street Fighter games are prominent examples of this.

 

[DeepEnigma]

The value proposition for games back then were based on challenge. If you made a game that had a hefty challenge (but a gradual learning curve) then you'd have a hit game that everyone would want to play. It's why Super Mario Bros gets progressively more difficult as you advance in levels - but the idea is that you learn to play better as you advance. Games were literally marketed on how difficult they were.

NES games in particular were mostly modeling themselves off of what was popular in arcades. Arcade games were meant to be challenging because the more often you'd die / have to restart, the more money you'd have to pump into it and the more money the machine was worth to arcade owners.

Yep. Modern gaming journalists, this is a nightmare to them.

 

[InfiniteCombo]

The value proposition for games back then were based on challenge. If you made a game that had a hefty challenge (but a gradual learning curve) then you'd have a hit game that everyone would want to play. It's why Super Mario Bros gets progressively more difficult as you advance in levels - but the idea is that you learn to play better as you advance. Games were literally marketed on how difficult they were.

NES games in particular were mostly modeling themselves off of what was popular in arcades. Arcade games were meant to be challenging because the more often you'd die / have to restart, the more money you'd have to pump into it and the more money the machine was worth to arcade owners.

Of course I expected a quality post from you, and you (as always) delivered.

There's a key difference, though -- yes, some games had a progression-based challenge. Those are the ones I'm a fan of.

But there are a shit ton of classic/retro games that have a "trial and error" based challenge, and I'm not a fan of those at all. The design of those games suffers as a result; it's quite often that you'll find cheap deaths in those kinds of games.

 

[TintoConCasera]

I don't have a problem with most of the NES games I've played, like yeah they are pretty difficult but lots of them offer a fair challenge of increasing difficulty. There's a lot of memorization needed too, but hey I guess that wasn't a problem since for me at least I didn't have tons of games and ended up playing the same ones time after time.

Then of course you have games like Ninja Gaiden, where enemies like to respawn of the fucking ledges time and time again. Fuck that.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

You really notice this when you go back to old games with an emulator. Once you have save states these games immediately feel a lot easier and a lot shorter.

It depends on the game. For example while a lot more modern in a sense, a game like Raiden Fighters Jet, save states won't help you much at all if you suck at them because progress is tied to a scoring system that ranks your performance after each level. The only way to see to the end of the game is to literally get good enough.

 

[ReBurn]

A number of NES games had absolutely brutal difficulty. It's even become a phrase, "Nintendo Hard". So, why were they so hard?

I think they appeared hard because there was no ability to save (for most of the games, some had codes to start at a certain point, or a crude battery that stored the data), so if you "died" in the game you had to start all over again. Now you simply reload at the point you "died", or a dedicated save point, and try again.

Some games however....I still remember "Mike Tyson's Punch Out" (before they dropped his name). Mike Tyson's fist alone was the size of your character.

Mike Tyson's Punch Out wasn't hard as much as it was cheap. That game straight up cheated. But the way Tyson was KO'ing fools I guess it was kind of realistic.

so many NES games were just brutal

 

[ManaByte]

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

Some of those games were true BS though. Ninja Gaiden has enemies that respawn as soon as you step one pixel too far to the left or right. That game is horribly designed and it's difficulty comes from such terrible design decisions. It only became famous because ninjas.

I used to play and replay games like MegaMan 1-4 religiously. I could never do a no-damage run, but I finished all of the NES games I owned, and most of those I borrowed or rented. Today I'd never think twice about using savestates unless it's a game where I really enjoy getting good and learning the patterns. I still haven't finished a number of PC-Engine shooters because I really like them and want to beat them legit, but Gradius and Salamander can kiss my ass and make me wonder just how many humans out of 1000 can seriously finish them with no savestates.

SMB3 was really, really weird with it's lack of a save function. I swear it's like Nintendo never intended anyone to beat it without using the warp whistles. I, like many kids, was allowed a daily time limit to play games. I could never beat SMB3 without warps within that limit. SMB2 was similar, but at least Doki Doki Panic was originally a FDS game with saves.

Rare's games were hard as nails. I rented Snake Rattle 'n Roll and Cobra Triangle back in the day. I got close to finishing both, but ultimately didn't. TMNT was piss easy in comparison.

 

[Knightime_X]

NES games are not even that hard though..

I can't think of many (can't think of any right now) NES games that made you start ALLLLLLL the way back to stage 1 without offering continues.
Most of the "hard" aspect comes from artificial difficulty like infinite respawning off-screen enemies like in Ninja Gaiden 1 or shit hit detection.

16-bit is when you truly started to see actual hard games that's mostly bs free.

 

[Knightime_X]

Literally every kid I knew had a game genie.
It wasn't about one bragging about beating a game, it was about being able to see the ending without wanting punch a hole in your tv out of rage.

I didn't see much bragging until the 16-bit era with teenagers and even more so with adults.
Kids literally don't give a fuck.
Impressed? Sure. Care if they can do it themselves? lmfao hell no.

 

[Drew1440]

people used to rent games..
you don't want people to beat a game fast when they are renting .

In a way they still do with gamepass and PS Now

 

[Plies]

In a way they still do with gamepass and PS Now

As kids, only renting games over a single weekend was feasible. Gamepass users have far more leeway to complete their games because of how it's structured.

 

[BlackTron]

what's interesting is when I try to play nes games using new controllers ( mainly wireless) I suck, but playing on a wired nes it's like I never stopped playing them.
I gather that my reflex memory doesn't work well with the input delay of wireless controllers.

This is like exactly what happens to me if I forget to turn on Game Mode. I'll say WTF is wrong with me today, realize my stupidity and switch to game mode, and it's like flipping a light switch.

There are also more software layers going on now, back then a wired controller on NES was like a 1:1 direct simple system compared to today...especially on the CRTs we had.

Growing up with this stuff is why I'm a nerd for having a 1ms monitor and high refresh rate, HD era bought in so much bloat and sluggishness into the whole setup, it's hard for me to accept a massive downgrade from what I had 30 years ago lol.

 

[TheInfamousKira]

Current games are designed with the point of being interactive. Older games were designed with the point of being challenging. That's why a good portion of MMO's, gacha games, and open world affairs suck so much for me. Yes, there are ones that do it correctly, and yes, there is a niche for it and it can be satisfying in the right doses (I recently played every Assassin's Creed game in order up to Odyssey, that is NOT the right dose) but too many of them feel like busy work or real life simulations. Collect the right amount of x to make y so that you can carry more Q to make it easier to farm R. Buy these shops so you can buy armor for cheaper and pull more out of the bank. Log in precisely 12 hours apart and hit auto battle fourteen times to build up your in game currency so you don't have to spend your real currency keeping up with other players. Shit that feels more like a job with scheduled meetings.

Old games had the game aspect down. You're on the left of the screen. Get to the right of the screen without getting killed. Fit those blocks together before they reach the top of the screen. Get through this cavern with 6 potions, 2 mana potions and 45 HP. People's ideas of fun have gotten more streamlined, and the accepted ideas about what does and doesn't count as respecting/wasting the player's time has, too.

I'm not an Asian Starcraft player or someone who plays Bloodborne blindfolded and does no damage runs, but I have to say, very rarely do I ever see the game over screen in modern games (PS3 and on, basically) unless I'm tired and making mistakes, unless there are terrible frame drops, the game is poorly designed, or I have a poor understanding of how it's supposed to be played. Old school games were all about pattern recognition, memorization, reflex, and a little bit of luck. I feel like today difficulty modes are essentially

Anything below Normal
Just like Normal except enemies disintegrate the first time you hit them.

Normal
Designed so basically anyone can complete the main sequence of mandatory events.

Anything above Normal
Literally just swapping the levels around for how much health you and your opponents have/how much damage you and your opponents take from attacks.

There ARE some notable exceptions in the modern era to this. Capcom is usually on fire with their harder difficulties. RE7 and RE3R, Devil May Cry, etc. Metal Gear games usually felt like entirely different experiences due to the AI being a lot less forgiving on higher difficulties. Even Critical Mode on Kingdom Hearts II, which is probably the best way to play it.

 

[clintar]

not sure what "filtered" means in the context of this thread but yes, my god NES games are insanely difficult.

I probably beat less than 10 games on the console back then. Definitely used cheat codes whenever I could.

Yes, is this a typo or new slang kids are using these days?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Literally every kid I knew had a game genie.
It wasn't about one bragging about beating a game, it was about being able to see the ending without wanting punch a hole in your tv out of rage.

I didn't see much bragging until the 16-bit era with teenagers and even more so with adults.
Kids literally don't give a fuck.
Impressed? Sure. Care if they can do it themselves? lmfao hell no.

I was the only kid I knew that never wanted one. Did use the Konami code though.

 

[Aldynes]

Recently I've been watching a lot of this guy's videos, walktrough / guide for beating NES games, with some really good tips, managed to beat Megaman 1 following his guide, never thought of going Fireman first, but his weapon make stages far more easier.

Lots and lots of awesome guides for NES games

 

[recursive]

NES games are not even that hard though..

I can't think of many (can't think of any right now) NES games that made you start ALLLLLLL the way back to stage 1 without offering continues.
Most of the "hard" aspect comes from artificial difficulty like infinite respawning off-screen enemies like in Ninja Gaiden 1 or shit hit detection.

16-bit is when you truly started to see actual hard games that's mostly bs free.

The original dark souls.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Games were probably made difficult because it was expected that you would keep replaying it and mastering it due to the limited number of titles out at the time.

Not even the limited number of titles out but just the fact that the size constraints of a cart made it hard to make these types of games particularly long. If you bought a game and beat it in a half hour you'd be pretty mad, but if you played it for two months straight just to get good enough to beat it, you got your money's worth.

Games that DID have a longer length and a save system were often not as brutal difficult. For example, something like Zelda or Wonder Boy III wasn't going to be as hard as, say, Aleste or Ninja Gaiden, because they could deliver value and playtime without it.

 

[crozier]

I definitely had more patience as a gamer back then. I can't see myself beating Zelda II nowadays.

 

[93xfan]

I definitely had more patience as a gamer back then. I can't see myself beating Zelda II nowadays.

I went back and beat it a few years ago. Very worthwhile game

 

[captainraincoat]

nes had some pretty brutal games and if you didn't grow up playing them I could easily see people bring put off or "filtered"

I remember raging playing battletoads and actually wedged the nes controller into a plaster wall ..pulled it out and worked perfectly

Mike Tyson's punch out I didn't rage once you knew the patterns

Tmnt was another annoying game as you often got killed by stuff coming into screen

 

[Starcheif]

Tmnt was another annoying game as you often got killed by stuff coming into screen

That Seaweed!

 

[Morrie’s wig shop]

Op your gonna have to explain to us Gen Xers what the context of the word filtered means for you kids these day?

Back in the day you were lucky to get 1 or 2 games a year and it was always during Christmas time (my parents would never spend $50 on my birthday) so we mastered the shit outta of the few games we could get our hands on and it would take pretty much the whole year until next Christmas.

 

[trikster40]

I think a lot of it has to do with the transition from arcade to home games. Arcade games were designed to eat your quarters, and a lot of NES games were arcade ports. I just think that crazy difficulty was just expected at that time.

 

[HYDE]

I still haven't fully beat Ninja Gaiden on the NES. I'm gonna buy the Ninja Gaiden collection just to unlock the original games and beat all of em. I was 7 years old when I kept getting curb stomped by "The Jacquio" boss.

39 now...time for reveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeenge!!!!

EDIT: Nevermind...the master collection does NOT include theoriginal NES games. I'm is sad. Gonna need to do it on Ninja Gaiden Black.

Ninja Gaiden Black doesn't have them either, it's the og Ninja Gaiden locked to the original XBOX.

 

[Tschumi]

I've heard it said that console games took notes from arcade games, and arcade games were all about netting more quarters, and the great novelty about consoles was that you could retry infinitely for free... Anyway, maybe that's why games were designed to kill you often

 

[-Minsc-]

My bro and I had great fun entering in random codes to see what sort of messed up level we'd get in Super Mario Bros.

 

[SegaShack]

Difficulty because games were meant to be replayed to be mastered, otherwise they'd just take an hour of your time.

This also makes games more replayable.

Some games are just not fun or overly difficult though, not all are perfect.

I much prefer it to today's "daily challenges" and "seasons" that are cheap methods for keeping players coming back (but holds no interest for me).

It's sad to me that games now are walking simulators with practically the same play time for each user.

No one asked "how many hours" of playtime were NES/SNES games because it all depends on skill and how fast you can learn each game.

 

[gradient]

As others have said, a major selling point of games back then was challenge and the achievement of beating them. That adrenaline high of beating a level and eventually completing a game was a big deal and a major draw for gamers back then. It carried with it a genuine achievement (not like the participation trophies they give out for playing modern games) and bragging rights among gamers who knew the challenge and recognized the skills required to get however far in a game.

Yes the games were shorter, but it's disingenuous to say that is the reason for the difficulty. The difficulty existed because the gamers wanted the challenge and because of that the challenge drove sales. Once we hit the PS1 era and gaming became more mainstream then the flood of casual gamers that entered the market wanted easier wins and less effort so the money shifted to cater for the larger market.

 

[BusierDonkey]

There are a LOT of 8-bit and 16-bit games that I never beat. Some games like Battletoads I never even came close.

I still consider the late 80's to early 90's my favorite time in gaming.