Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
Wii was not a tradtional console. It was marketed as something brand new, which is why it sold so well. Same goes for Switch. Y'all holding onto straws trying to win this argument loll
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Is 60 FPS killing overall graphical fidelity?
- Thread starter TaiLopezFan
- Start date
- Opinion
Dust-by-Monday
Member
Did you turn off motion blur on those?
If you needed any more evidence that you are absolutely clueless about this subject, then let this be it.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
Its not. Framerate is to do with response time not the graphics themselves. No amount of opinion can change this fact.
No. It isn't. Its about response time. The games objectively look worse at 60 than 30. This is a fact and not an opinion.
Thats the whole point of 30FPS... better visual fidelity. Better resolution. More detail. And in todays market, Ray Tracing. The games look better. Thats why its marketed as QUALITY mode.
I don't think you've really got much idea what a "fact" actually is.
You THINK games look better at 30 with higher fidelity.
I THINK games look better at 60 with lower fidelity.
Neither of these two things are "facts".
ethomaz
Banned
I want higher framerate like everybody else.
But the trade off in IQ on console is not worth.
I prefer a next-gen experience and that is only achievable with 30fps.
Game over game is showing that with the new consoles.
You have to see how much hate PS5 games with PS4 visual is getting this generation.
That should not happen in a next-gen machine.
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Oh I see what you're saying. Yeah I guess graphics fidelity isn't everything but that list has more 30fps games than not.
Ulysses 31
Member
Look up what motion clarity is, higher fps brings better motion clarity which is better fidelity.No. It isn't. Its about response time. The games objectively look worse at 60 than 30. This is a fact and not an opinion.
Thats the whole point of 30FPS... better visual fidelity. Better resolution. Thats why its called QUALITY mode.
Blur Busters TestUFO Motion Tests. Benchmark for monitors & displays.
Blur Busters UFO Motion Tests with ghosting test, 30fps vs 60fps vs 120hz vs 144hz vs 240hz, PWM test, motion blur test, judder test, benchmarks, and more.
www.testufo.com
ethomaz
Banned
One is fact... the other not.
The graphics on 30fps will look better than graphics on 60fps.
If you want 60fps you need to trade off in visual presentation.
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S
SpongebobSquaredance
Unconfirmed Member
Martinski43
Member
When you're used to 60fps or more going back to 30 fps feels like ass, everytime i have tried one of these "quality" modes on PS5 or Series X it feels like a choppy mess.
ethomaz
Banned
Yeap look at Horizon in 30fps it looks so bad compared with 60fps lol
Seems like games are against your "facts".
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rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
We don't miss the frames missing in 30fps vs 60 because they don't exist. You can't miss what don't exist. /sLook up what motion clarity is, higher fps brings better motion clarity which is better fidelity.
Blur Busters TestUFO Motion Tests. Benchmark for monitors & displays.
Blur Busters UFO Motion Tests with ghosting test, 30fps vs 60fps vs 120hz vs 144hz vs 240hz, PWM test, motion blur test, judder test, benchmarks, and more.
Dust-by-Monday
Member
To be fair, when I'm playing a 30fps game, I'm not staring at the screen looking for that motion blur. I'm usually looking into the distance where the screen isn't moving as much, then I might turn, but then it's back to normal again within seconds. I have no issues looking at an enemy while I dodge and the enemy stays in my field of vision and the camera doesn't spin quickly, so it's still very detailed.
I feel like some of you are swinging the camera around wildly all the time and that's a weird way to play.
I feel like some of you are swinging the camera around wildly all the time and that's a weird way to play.
Ulysses 31
Member
Multiple things can be true at the same time:
60 fps in motion looks better than 30 fps in motion.
30 fps will have more graphical settings turned on than 60 fps.
For some, the motion clarity of 60 fps trumps the lack of clarity when making big camera movements in 30 fps.
You don't miss frames but the frames are a lot blurrier in 30 fps. That's why it's called motion clarity.
This gen was never gonna be that massive a jump in the graphics department due to the massive jump in resolution and the doubling of the fps. It is simply going to be a more polished ps4 game with a higher resolution and 60 fps. PS6 though should have a decent bump up in graphics since the doubling of fps will have started during the ps5.
I'm fine with 30 fps games so the drama of "it must be 60 fps" always seems silly to me who has mostly only played 30 fps games.
I'm fine with 30 fps games so the drama of "it must be 60 fps" always seems silly to me who has mostly only played 30 fps games.
bentanchorbolt
Banned
I'm not going to argue with you. If you want to incorrectly believe the way a signal moves isn't also part of its fidelity then you go ahead and keep believing that. The outcome of our interaction doesn't change reality.
You literally don't understand what "fact" means.
You can't objectively test how "good" something "looks". It's absolutely, fundamentally, subjective.
When I say that 60fps performance modes usually look better to me, what do you think is actually going on there? Do you think I'm just lying or something? Or that I don't understand the words I'm typing?
I accept that you find 30fps fidelity modes more attractive even though that differs from my subjective experience. Why can't you extend me the same courtesy, and recognise that what you're perceiving isn't some objective truth or fact?
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
Lmao. In this thread we pretend higher resolution doesn't impact clarity. If you want to talk about clarity and ignore resolution then more power to you.
Its called QUALITY mode because the images on screen look more visually pleasing due to added effects, higher resolution, ray tracing, as well as other various perks which vary by game.
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Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
Because it isn't opinion based. This is fact based. And you are throwing your opinions and feelings into it.
You claiming 60FPS games have better graphical fidelity than 30FPS games is like me saying 30FPS games run at a higher framerate than 60FPS games.
Its just wrong. Sorry
I think these tests try to show the difference as much as possible though. They are designed to.Look up what motion clarity is, higher fps brings better motion clarity which is better fidelity.
Blur Busters TestUFO Motion Tests. Benchmark for monitors & displays.
Blur Busters UFO Motion Tests with ghosting test, 30fps vs 60fps vs 120hz vs 144hz vs 240hz, PWM test, motion blur test, judder test, benchmarks, and more.
if you look at a video like this and can't tell which is which:
Then those people shouldn't really be calling 30fps unplayable or slideshows.
Haggard
Banned
It´s your brain that`s saying, ok, this crap is the normal now, i`m gonna ignore the bad parts as good as I can.
Doesn`t change the fact that you can always tell if it`s 30fps or 60 the moment you take a closer look.
If you claim you can`t see if something is 30fps or lower in a full screen camera panning movement without motion blur, then you are lying for the sake of this discussion. I don`t believe that for a second.
ethomaz
Banned
Resolution gives clarity.
What are you talking about?
Horizon 30fps is way more sharper and clarity due having a native 4k resolution.
No matter what you do with the camera the 4k30fps mode looks sharper with more clarity.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
I think you missed the /s, but on top that I don't think the frames are blurrier. The thing is that there are more stuttering.
ethomaz
Banned
There is no lie at all.
I can't say if a video is 30 or 60fps or whatever other framerate.
Unless you show both videos... on with 30 and another with 60... and even so I can't say which one is 30 of 60... I can say Video 1 have higher framerate than Video 2.
And I don't believe anybody can say which framerate a video is playing just looking at it... that is bullshit... I can undestand you guess the framerate... sometimes you are right, sometimes you are wrong.
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Ulysses 31
Member
You must mind is going places, I didn't bring up resolution, only motion clarity in 30 vs 60 fps.
Higher resolution means higher fidelity obviously.
Haggard
Banned
That is definitely not normal though, at least for anyone who has seen the difference at least once.
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No, because I didn't say that 60fps games have better graphical fidelity.
I said that they usually look better to me than the corresponding "fidelity" modes.
The particular settings or graphical features or resolution etc a game has ARE a matter of objective truth. How good something looks to any individual is a matter of subjective perception.
They're not the same things.
Which is to say, how something looks includes how smoothly it runs. And for me, the extra fluidity LOOKS better than the extra graphical features that an equivalent amount of power can process.
S
SpongebobSquaredance
Unconfirmed Member
traditional doesn't count, because otherwise the argument would fall apart.
mr "graphics are always number 1 selling point" just conveniently leaves out examples that disprove his take. like that the most successful game of all time doesn't go for graphical fidelity. among many other big sellers that do it neither. the "best games" list has several 60 FPS games like Metal Gear Solid 2, Tony Hawk, Soul Calibur, Gran Turismo 3, Mario Galaxy etc. etc.
even outside of the Wii, the PS2 wasn't that powerful compared to Xbox and Gamecube, in the beginning even below DC (textures, resolution, clarity) in some ways. the SNES was a jump over the Genesis, but not exactly a huge one like the Neo Geo, the most technically impressive console back than. it only sold to a niche audience. the Atari Lynx was technically very impressive, could produce some great graphics and had a backlight screen, all in the same year the gameboy released. and the gameboy crushed it. driven by Tetris, a game that couldn't be less about graphical fidelity if it tried.
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Ulysses 31
Member
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ethomaz
Banned
That is the normal man.
My wife can't say either... nobody can.
I doubt if you watch a video you can say which framerate it is running without using a tool... just looking at it.
You will make a guess.
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Martinski43
Member
Was clear after a few seconds the right one was 60 fps.
I could make this out just looking at that video embedded on my phone as well. It's much much clearer when you play a game on a 55" or larger tv.
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ethomaz
Banned
The issue with these tests is that with both 30 and 60 side by side I can tell the difference.
I can tell which one if at higher or lower framerate.
Make a single video with a defined framerate and aks people on YouTube which framerate it is... that should be shocking.
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ethomaz
Banned
I just caught you lying.
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I surprisingly picked it out as well. This unfortunately was't a great comparison. You had two times of day and different handling of the camera and weaving of traffic. I mean if you have a dreary day for the 30 fps and you jerk the camera a bunch of times plus I thought the vehicle looked blurry right at the start then of course I would pick the correct one./ISPOILER]
ethomaz
Banned
BTW let's make a little game.
Post the results you reached.
I guessed all the time and the best guess was 30 when it was running at 24.
Edit - Another try.
My guess: 45fps
Actual framerate: 56fps
Edit 2 - Off by a lot.
My guess: 34fps
Actual framerate: 52fps
FPS Guessing game
justsitethings.com
Post the results you reached.
I guessed all the time and the best guess was 30 when it was running at 24.
Edit - Another try.
My guess: 45fps
Actual framerate: 56fps
Edit 2 - Off by a lot.
My guess: 34fps
Actual framerate: 52fps
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ethomaz
Banned
If you put the video separably I should not guess which one it was.
Both side by side spoiled the results.
It is like the shift between 30 and 60 in games that makes it very noticeable.
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Haggard
Banned
I can, my wife can, my nephew can, and pretty much everyone who`s ever been born and doesn`t triy to push an agenda on some online board also can.
It is not normal to not be able to tell if a video has 30 or 60+ fps the moment you have big camera movements and have seen or experienced the difference in the past.
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ethomaz
Banned
Nope you can't but pretend you can lol
Tried the little game? Maybe it put some sense in you and you stop lying to yourself.
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JeloSWE
Member
Nice test. I was very close in my guesses. But it's nearly impossible to guess accurately in steps lower than 10 or 5. One could at least make out with decent accuracy whether it's 60 30 20 15. But impossible to say accurately if it's 48, 50 or 53.
It's also more difficult to tell frame rates apparat with the same steps the higher they get: 15 and 20 (33% diff), 20 and 30 (50% diff). 40 and 50 (25% diff).
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Interfectum
Gold Member
I was only 3-4 frames off with every guess, did it 5 times. That is a really cool test btw.
nikos
Member
You're wrong. Unless you're looking at screenshots, it should be immediately apparent that a smoother framerate helps tremendously with overall image quality.
Ulysses 31
Member
You leave out the motion part for some reason, motion clarity as you can see in post #680.
I'm talking about maintaining a lot of the sharpness when there's no camera movement in the times there are. Currently with most modern displays things quickly become a big blur at 30 fps. (Especially noticeable how unreadable panning/scrolling text becomes)
You may not mind it, others like me do.
Again, it doesn't in motion compared to 60 fps.
Ideally we'd have the high res with the high motion clarity but since that's not possible in most cases there's people who go for the higher fps which has better motion clarity.
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ethomaz
Banned
I was about to create videos to post on YouTube and share in this thread to try to guess... one per time.
But ideias are easy to have and hard to implement.
The amount of time I need plus it have to be on PC (that I usually don't play... so I don't have a game in the hand) made me give up the ideia... ohhh and people can use easy tools to get the framerate spoling the fun.
I can't really tell the framerate my guess is usually right because between 30 and 60 there is a 50% change to get it right
but it is after all just a guess. I can see framerate drops... or spot the higher or lower framerate in a video with both... so in comparisons it makes easy to say which one is each.
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Haggard
Banned
Almost the same, max deviation 5 fps.
But gotta disagree. That is not a good test.
Stuttering due to fps is MUCH more prominent in large linear movements than in circular ones.
With the classic UFO fps comparison graphic that test would be so obvious my grandma would pinpoint it...same as in full-screen camera panning.
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S
SpongebobSquaredance
Unconfirmed Member
yeah its cool, but it really doesn't prove much, because our eyes don't work like cameras. like even if you're off you'll probably see a clear difference. this doesn't prove if someone can see and notice 60 FPS vs. 30 FPS.
aside from the visuals you also feel the 60 FPS in game. there is a reason why several genres are traditionally in 60 FPS.
Nankatsu
Member
A smoother framerate is always preferred, but again folks, you can't judge the next gen systems by cross gen games (regardless of how great they look)
THIS IS WHAT NEXT GEN LOOKS LIKE THUS FAR
All of these look much better than most eighth generation titles due to-
Lighting
particles
Shadows
loading
far higher CPU allowing for more on screen
Far higher GPU allowing for more fur, textures, shaders higher poly models etc
and these are all early Next Gen Only titles...
Games like Forspoken, Gran Turismo 7, Project Eve, etc will all only get better looking in time.
What game is the last one?
JeloSWE
Member
I've play fighting games on the regular and used to play Quake a lot, and I work with vfx animations for games daily (think throwing spells in LOL type of animations). It's mostly about a trained eye from experience. The difference between 30 and 60 is quite clear to me but I couldn't say if was off by 5~10 frames with any accuracy but I could probably guess if something is above 30 but less than 60. Guessing the exact fps isn't needed with games as they are generally 30, 60 or 120 fps.I was about to create videos to post on YouTube and share in this thread to try to guess... one per time.
But ideias are easy to have and hard to implement.
The amount of time I need plus it have to be on PC (that I usually don't play... so I don't have a game in the hand) made me give up the ideia.
I can't really tell the framerate my guess is usually right because between 30 and 60 there is a 50% change to get it right
I can see framerate drops... or spot the higher or lower framerate in a video with both.
That said, when controlling the character in game, the lower fps makes is abundantly clear though the higher input lag as well as motion clarify when rotating the camera.