GHG
Gold Member
He didn't say it was discussions regarding his games.
Again, what does a playstation title have to do with this discussion?
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"MANY developers have been sitting in meetings for the past year desperately trying to get Series S launch requirements dropped"
- Thread starter Tiago Rodrigues
- Start date
He didn't say it was discussions regarding his games.
Again, what does a playstation title have to do with this discussion?
Punished Miku
Human Rights Subscription Service
GHG
Gold Member
No it is not, his tweets were in response to this:
I don't see anything about the PS4 being mentioned. As usual with these things, nothing can be discussed in isolation without a bit of "but Sony". It's a sickness.
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SportsFan581
Member
So the Rocksteady Dev....who didn't work on Gotham Knights posits:
The Series S GPU caused the PS5 version to be locked 30fps?
Apparently the XSS was so limiting there it's running at 1440p, when there are games released for it running at 720p.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Huh? It doesn't say this.
01011001
Banned
So the Rocksteady Dev....who didn't work on Gotham Knights posits:
The Series S GPU caused the PS5 version to be locked 30fps?
doesn't that make total sense?
Punished Miku
Human Rights Subscription Service
I'll clarify once, but poor reading comprehension annoys me.
I never said the tweet was about God of War. I said that it's ridiculous that he is criticizing the Series S while a game like God of War is possible on PS4. It's me comparing the system specs of a weaker system to the Series S and comparing the games. Me. Not only are most indie games not even close to this, but most AAA games aren't even close to this either. And the XSS is stronger than the PS4.
I then asked a direct question. Do you guys think it's logical for him to single out the Series S for public criticism given what this particular dev puts out? I wont wait on your answer since I wont get it. The answer is obviously NO. It doesn't make much sense.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
He literally says that now that the games are finally beyond the cross gen phased and being developed for NEXT GEN consoles only, the series S is the bottleneck. Before that it was the PS4 and we all know how trashy the last two years were.
SportsFan581
Member
Sense goes out the window as soon as you start blasting a hardware partner with whom your company/publisher has an important relationship.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I think we need to wait for Hellpoint Dev's input before we proceed what to think about a 4TF box going into 2023.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Hes an idiot who simply doesnt realize that games were being developed around 1.3 tflops of GPU power up until 2022. Of course the steam hardware survey shows that the 5 tflops 1060 is the most popular GPU. Its still 3x more powerful than the X1 and on par with the X1X and the RX 580.
This is why Giantbomb failed. People running it had no brain and tech knowhow.
HTK
Banned
If Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 can run on Series S, I'm sure anything these dudes are making can as well. If PS4 still has cross-gen titles, then these guys are fine with Series S. Why is Series S such a bottleneck for their "VISION". Please, never even heard of these clowns or their games.
reinking
Gold Member
I don't think the problem is they can't get it to run on the XBSS. It is what they have to sacrifice to do so.
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Literally his point is that PS4 no longer has cross gen titles, hes talking about next gen only. "Now that the games are being developed FIRMLY with new consoles in mind." COD was designed to run on a 1.3 tflops X1. Of course it runs fine on a 4 tflops XSS. With RDNA 2.0 IPC gains and a badass CPU it should run 4x better. That is not the point. They are finally moving to next gen development two years after launch and why this is coming up again.
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
If games are going to get presets to be steam deck compatible in the future, there really is no reason those same levels of presets can't be imported for Series S while developers are free to do more bespoke development on PS5 and Series X to better realize their visions.
After all, we have seen multiple examples of games which launched at 30 FPS on Series S and 60 on the other consoles.
There may be a mandatory launch requirement on Series S, but it doesn't look like there is a mandatory performance-match requirement for the developers to give the games same performances.
SportsFan581
Member
Literally his point is that PS4 no longer has cross gen titles, hes talking about next gen only. COD was designed to run on a 1.3 tflops X1. Of course it runs fine on a 4 tflops XSS. With RDNA 2.0 IPC gains and a badass CPU it should run 4x better. That is not the point. They are finally moving to next gen development two years after launch and why this is coming up again.
And in a few years we'll have many, many current-gen only games and they'll all run on the XSS just fine, and to top it off, they'll push the XSX/PS5 so hard you'll be glad they couldn't push beyond the capabilities further. And then we can revisit these clowns at that time.
HTK
Banned
If it's that big of a detriment just make the game for PC and PS5. It's just so weird that they can create and optimize for PC with various hardware but not the Series S. Like why is the Series S specifically a detriment to their development?
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I think the issue is going into the future 2023 and beyond, as development will be dropping cross-gen, but the 8GB RAM, 4TF box is here to stay.
Also, a lot of studios that work on the current gen consoles, such as the XSX and XSS, have to work on both, and a separate team for the most part is dedicated to last gen porting with a handful of crossover in devs.
And there are many games that don't or can barely run on the PC Steam Deck already.
Punished Miku
Human Rights Subscription Service
So we haven't seen games made for 4 tflops yet? Should still be fine. Most devs can't even come close to maxing out what's possible on 1.3.Literally his point is that PS4 no longer has cross gen titles, hes talking about next gen only. COD was designed to run on a 1.3 tflops X1. Of course it runs fine on a 4 tflops XSS. With RDNA 2.0 IPC gains and a badass CPU it should run 4x better. That is not the point. They are finally moving to next gen development two years after launch and why this is coming up again.
This guy will never put out a thing even close to Call of Duty, God of War, the upcoming Sony GAAS cross-gen games, Horizon FW, in terms of every single metric graphically. I know your passion on this issue but I literally can't make myself agree.
The hardware is not holding back anyone but the absolute top of the line devs that are first party anyway. Everyone else has so much room to improve their optimization that it's laughable that they even say this publicly.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
says who? no one gives a shit about the steam deck. It hasnt even sold a million units in a year. No one is going to support it once cross gen is over. Only those indie games that top the charts on steam every month.
And yes, games can and have already been downgraded on the Series S. Ive brought up 512p versions of Metro and Metro multiple times as proof. However, if the devs are saying downgrades to resolution and fidelity are not enough then there must be something else DESIGN wise thats holding back the series S. Control devs over at Remedy had specfically talked about RAM being a bottleneck and one could argue that MS increasing the ram allocation last month is proof that it was a real concern.
HTK
Banned
Still doesn't add up because the Series S is not too underpowered. It's a 1080p console like majority of PC players who play in 1080p. It's low tier next gen console. It is possible to make a banger in terms of visual quality for the Series X and optimize the Series S version from there.
In any case, if Series S wasn't in the picture these guys still wouldn't be making anything remotely that takes advantage of the Series X.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Sure, there are also games which barely hit 30 FPS on the much more powerful PS5 and Series X as well. So there's that too.
Steam Deck compatibility is becoming more and more common with each new release, almost every notable release is "Deck verified" at launch and with the proliferation of the device and how fucking popular it is, I see that trend only going up.
Steam Deck is indirectly good for Switch Pro/Series S for the coming years.
dude .. really ?
SportsFan581
Member
They also said that it will be easier to deal with once cross-gen is over, but that point seems to get lost in the translation.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
You missed the point. Devs have the option to not waste resources and skip the Steam Deck entirely due to specs.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Well, look at how the shittiest studio like Bloober just put out the first truly next gen title that embraces all the first party devs across Sony, MS and third party devs from EA trying to pass off Dead Space and NFS as next gen. Indies like this guy now have access to THE best game engine ever created and unlike last gen, Quixel Megascans are part of UE5. They no longer have to pay for assets or go and photograph them themselves. Everything is literally at their fingertips and Lumens and Nanite make everything so much more easier to develop than it was last gen.
This guy might never produce anything of Silent Hill's caliber but ive seen single devs on PC make stunning looking demos on UE4 and UE5 by focusing on next gen specs.
Hardware always holds back. You cant optimize your way out of specs. Just look at the switch's latest game Mario Rabbids. Looks way worse than the original released 5 years ago because they decided to make the level biggers and the camera controllable instead of an isometric view. MASSIVE downgrade because the switch specs cant handle it despite 5 years of optimization.
This topic is about current gen development.
It shouldn't need to be pointed out that PS4 is a last generation console, GOWR is a cross-gen title, and the PS5 version is the PS4 game with current gen enhancements. PS4 will already or soon be dropped from devs plans going forward.
There are no devs having meetings with Sony to have PS4 removed from current gen launch requirements. SMH this is even brought up as a comparison.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
You really believe that steam deck will hold back next gen consoles?
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I think this will become less and less frequent as time goes on.
I believe people give a lot of shit about Steam Deck. It wouldn't be as popular in such a small time as it is otherwise.
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SportsFan581
Member
Well, just wait a year and then you can see the Bloober game on XSS.
The whole context of this topic is beyond stupid to say the least. MS is never dropping the XSS requirement, if they did they are finished. That would be a Sega level bait and switch for XSS buyers, that were promised one thing and got something else. The XSS will be part of the generation from beginning to end, exactly as it is now, the tears are a waste of time. If you have a problem with that, go PS5 only (PC is really out in that scenario as well because the generation will likely be nearly over before even 40% of users have GPUs at or above PS5 level), tears not required.
Meanwhile, developers that know what they are doing will enjoy the benefits of releasing across all platforms with scalable technologies that allow them to hit the maximum number of players, albeit at different fidelity levels.
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Bojji
Member
What he don't get is that PC is completely irrelevant in setting base performance for the game, the weakest console is. So series s is that console now and for current gen games only series s also sets minimum requrements for pc games. It just so happens that it performs around gtx1060, the most popular GPU right now so it may seem that developers are targeting this specific PC hardware while in reality they don't give a fuck.
GHG
Gold Member
He gave some insight into what is going on behind the scenes regarding his peers. He will know other people in the industry, that's how it works.
What's the steam deck got to do with this? Some developers disregard it entirely, they are not forced to support it by virtue of developing for the PC. It's very much a case of "if our game ends up being within spec for it then we will create a preset for it", and in fact more often than not its Valve themselves making these presets, not the developers.
Nobody is going out of their way to specifically design games around being compatible with the Steam deck, they don't need to. It gets treated like any other low spec PC out there.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I think it will be more frequent, and a remote play only option from your PC.
You see the min specs coming for next gen games? Even the XSX/PS5 am cry. Now optimizations will improve over time, and we are seeing the early specs with the "brute force" style of coding with new engine tech, but it won't come down that much for handheld levels for the massive AAA games. AA/Indy middleware, sure. But they try to operate on anything and everything.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Thats not what I meant. I am talking about DEVS. Devs who want to push visual fidelity are not going to tie themselves to a 1.6 tflops GPU. Especially one that has a userbase of less than a million after launch. Thats still A LOT of people, but compared to consoles that are already approaching 50 million, its literally a fraction.
64gigabyteram
Reverse groomer.
the biggest turntable of the century
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HTK
Banned
If all these devs feel strongly about the Series S, I would avoid development for Microsoft until they change their tune. They all have to band together if they want Microsoft to remove this Series S requirement.
Additionally, develop on PS5 first and use that as leverage against Microsoft in those meetings.
Additionally, develop on PS5 first and use that as leverage against Microsoft in those meetings.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Devs can push visual fidelity and also have lower quality version of the assets to fit GPU's with lesser VRAM pools. Those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive.
It's the same reason why games which are already pushing PS5|SX to sub 30 like Gotham Knights and Plague Tale Requiem to a lesser extent are also working with just as good, and in some cases more stable, performances on Series S. Drop resolution, lower asset quality and effects to a lower preset and it's a go in most cases.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Yeah, thats going to be interesting for sure. The minimum specs on it are a 5700 which is a 7.9 tflops GPU. 1080p 30 fps low settings. That would mean the PS5 would be 1080p 30 fps medium settings at best. XSX is half as powerful as a 5700 so we are looking at 720p 30 fps which should be fine but we have not seen XSS downgrades be linear compared to the PS5 and XSX. The 1/3 tflops count results in 1/4th resolution with many visual downgrades. So it could potentially be in the 500p range just like the Matrix UE5 demo.Well, just wait a year and then you can see the Bloober game on XSS.
JLB
Banned
Why is stupid? This is like saying lets drop any cheap car and plan highways for Lambos and Ferraris. If you dont have money, deal with it sucker!
Its the same architecture, same cpu, same sdks. Its additional work? Yes. Is it reasonable? I think so.
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
Sony isn't really even actively selling PS4s anymore.
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
SportsFan581
Member
Recommended specs are similar to those of Plague Tale Requiem that already appears on the XSS. Specs for PC have to be loose because of the nature of the platform, expect the XSS to punch above its weight quite often in the coming years. Just like the poor X1 and PS4 have been doing for years now. Just how long has it been since PC minimum requirements were actually below those boxes?
Reality is a bit different from the way you are looking at things.
Case in point, look at God of War with its R9 290X 4GB minimum spec for 720p at 30fps. Keep in mind that's an over 3.3TF GPU from a later GCN version, and yet the PS4 is chugging along at 1080p. XSS isn't a PC part it's a console.
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LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
I agree but the consumer doesn't know any better and while the system does make a lot of concessions to run at the lower specifications it certainly does segment and lower the bar so every other platform is in some way affected but more importantly speaking about developer it impacts their dev time/effort.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
eh. both are souped up cross gen games. Plague's Tale looks last gen compared to Silent Hill despite being on UE5. This is why using Nanite and Lumens is so much more important than simply compiling your game on UE5 after doing all the dev on UE4.
Lets take a look at UE5. Epic literally came out and said that if devs want to enable nanite and hardware lumens on the XSX and PS5, they will have to target 1080p 30 fps. 1440p if they settle for software lumens. So assuming devs begin to use UE5 going forward, and a 10 tflops RDNA 2.0 GPU can only run the game at 1080p, you expect a vega 1.6 tflops GPU with no RDNA IPC gains to do what exactly? Run the game at 1/6th the resolution? 360p? 240p? Without ray traced GI? At that point, who would bother developing a non ray traced version of the game to steam deck? These guys can barely release a game once every 5-6 years.
vaibhavpisal
Member
EverydayBeast
ChatGPT 0.001
Last gen stuck for a long time it's a habit of entering new consoles to get people to upgrade.
64gigabyteram
Reverse groomer.
what the fuck are you actually talking about, it literally just did
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