Tommi84
Member
But you mean Series S or the whole MS ecosystem? Because MS forces you to support Series S.
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"MANY developers have been sitting in meetings for the past year desperately trying to get Series S launch requirements dropped"
- Thread starter Tiago Rodrigues
- Start date
Kenpachii
Member
Whole ecosystem
Kataploom
Gold Member
This is something I can think of a valid point, considering XSS is basically lower powered GPU XSX, which should be used to its full extend when the full API is released but it's not.
Even then, saying XSS is holding something back when you have A Plague Tale: Requiem, FS2020, The Medium and the fucking Matrix demo running on it and not on 8th gen machines is dumb imo... just bs console warring.
itsjustJEFF
Member
I don't blame them... it is more work that they have to try and fit in before launch. Is it impossible? Nope, they've been doing it. Could it require maybe some extra OT? Potentially, but then again... if they're aren't already accounting for that in the budget, then that's kind of on them right? I personally wouldn't aim for a "feature" or "product" to be moved off the table. MS/XBox have made it clear that there will be a Series S version.
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Hero_Select
Member
I dont understand why. The Series S has an on-par CPU and getting "rid" of it would be no different than getting rid of mid-low specced option in PC ports. Am I missing something here? Just seems like complaining for the same of complaining.
MatrixReloaded101
Member
Exactly, its common sense. Multiple devs have said the same thing about the Series S.
The Series S was a desperate attempt to increase the install base for Xbox and it was a mistake.... It is what is it, they just have to move on because this same conversation has gotten old.
Devs/Publishers just have to decide if they want to release games on Xbox and make sacrifices to have them run on the Series S or just only release the game on PC and PS5.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
There are many verified game developers who have all said the opposite, and not through marketing means when promoting a game. If games are being designed for PC, which they are, a lower baseline isn't an issue.
0neAnd0nly
Member
bUt SeRiEs S iS tOtEs ThE sAmE gUyZ
CamHostage
Member
Also, I believe you can release builds of games for multiple hardware targets on Xbox's digital shop. (In the past, I remember there being separate executeables and/or asset sets for Xbox One and Xbox One X if you pulled the deliveries apart, anybody remember if I have that correct?) So if the Series S really is a nightmare to support through scaling methods, I would think you'd "port" to it and have a separate build for X and a build for S, with the S version compromised or even farmed out to an external developer to get what they could out of it if that seriously was the problem, while XSX version is the "true" version.
Maybe stuff like UE5's Lumen/Nanite and other up-and-coming tech might be demanding more than Series S can scale for, maybe, but I feel like there must be options out there before you drop the platform entirely. (Also, UE5 itself is made to downscale or fallback where necessary, and as has been pointed out, Matrix Awakens City Sample is among the most advanced gaming apps out there and it can run unoptimized on Steam Deck, so it's unclear what these ultra-demanding, off-the-scaling-charts games would be?)
If all else failed, couldn't a developer stream to S while releasing the native app on X? (They're doing cloud support for Flight Sim on One X/S instead of porting that whole thing down as intended, but going cloud-only for Series S would be a different matter and the game would really need to show something extreme to justify leaving Series S gamers without a game in hand.)
If there were a slew of PS5 exclusives which demonstrated how sadly Xbox Series X suffers with its anchor sibling dragging it down, then this would be easy to agree with, but that's not yet proven to be the case. PS5's original games are nice, but then, so is Flight Sim (and so is FH5, which not only has to deal with Series S but also still must hang with Xbox One trying to keep up with it in cross-play.) Ports to or from PS5, such as The Medium or The Ascent or Godfall, haven't shown much of any boost or slump in the transition from one platform line to the other.
Both consoles are currently putting out games in the same range of technical level and performance. Maybe the gap might widen once new styles of next-gen engines come into use, but so far, we haven't seen much evidence of that yet.
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asdasdasdbb
Member
The S has been a huge success for MS.
Don't you think a 1440p60 game on X should be able to do ~720p30 on the S without doing much other than maybe dropping the texture resolution?
The Series S isn't holding any bit of game development back. Devs make games for the high end consoles and pare back features for the Series S. That's consistent with what we've seen in reality where devs are absolutely not reluctant to cut RT, high framerates and other stuff for the Series S versions.
Is Series S being a pain point for some developers? Very possible. Holding games back? Anyone who claims this is living in dreamland.
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the absolutely hilarious thing about this conversation is that in the coming years, devs will focus on providing support for the Steam Deck and the next gen Switch, both of which are weaker than the Series S.
By next year, Steamdeck sales will undoubtedly be at the 4 million mark at least. You'd be hard pressed to find devs not optimizing for the Deck.
Next gen Switch with DLSS will be a significant target for next gen developers too.
People are barking up the wrong tree…
By next year, Steamdeck sales will undoubtedly be at the 4 million mark at least. You'd be hard pressed to find devs not optimizing for the Deck.
Next gen Switch with DLSS will be a significant target for next gen developers too.
People are barking up the wrong tree…
RaySoft
Member
Do you think devs are crying over Series S specs for games that are already released?
Hero_Select
Member
How can the Series S "hold games back" when PC exists? There are AAA games released now that run on RX580s
March Climber
Member
Just wanted to clarify here that I've never claimed that MS marketed it this way. Me saying that console is a bridge is my own personal opinion based on my observations. As you've stated, Series S is being marketed as a lower spec current gen machine. From my perspective, that itself is the problem, and will become a bigger problem as we speed up towards current gen only games.
My take is that eventually MS will have to choose between the anger of PS5/Series X owners(including developers) who just want their 4k consoles to realize their maximum potential, vs the anger of the tons of Series S owners who suddenly will be unable to play current gen games a few years from now and will be told that they need to buy the next thing. Right now, MS is choosing the former, but there's a future where the latter could suddenly happen.
This whole idea of trying to do multiple editions and refreshes as if consoles are cell phones is a terrible idea to me in the first place because they are usually sold at a loss regardless.
onnextflix5
Member
That's the problem they don't have a choice, it's forced on them by ms, and they can't just release any crap on xss, they have strict requirements .
cireza
Member
Yeah, definitely a super stupid move from MS.
Imagine, having from the first day of a new gen, a console that has the exact same games as the other consoles that are 200+ $ more expensive, as well as being able to produce this budget console without any constraint while the two others are almost never available.
I can bet that people at MS regret selling a ton of these, without a doubt.
Ezekiel_
Banned
At the of the day, only devs can say if it's a pain or not.
It isn't that far fetched to assume that there's limits to scalability. Might not always be as simple as lowering resolution target / fps target / graphical features / etc.
If they have to make whole new code paths for SerS, that would qualify as a pain in the ass for devs.
It isn't that far fetched to assume that there's limits to scalability. Might not always be as simple as lowering resolution target / fps target / graphical features / etc.
If they have to make whole new code paths for SerS, that would qualify as a pain in the ass for devs.
MatrixReloaded101
Member
They never provided a breakdown of sales between the Series X and S. Are maybe I missed that?
RaZoR No1
Member
IMO the devs are trying to push the XSS too far.
I think nobody would be angry, if future XSS games run on 1080p or 720p.
Nobody expects 4k graphics or even the same fidelity as on PS5 or XSX and having 120 fps etc.
Like with the mid gen refreshes, everybody more or less were angry that the stronger ones didnt get any extra features.
To compensate for the lower res, we already have FSR or other upscaling options.
All XSS buyer and owner know, that they own the weaker non 4k console.
It is a cheap Gamepass machine.
If Sony made the move instead of MS, they would get several awards and praises just for the idea to have a lower entry next gen machine.
BTW: How many usable RAM do we now have on XSX and XSS?
I think nobody would be angry, if future XSS games run on 1080p or 720p.
Nobody expects 4k graphics or even the same fidelity as on PS5 or XSX and having 120 fps etc.
Like with the mid gen refreshes, everybody more or less were angry that the stronger ones didnt get any extra features.
To compensate for the lower res, we already have FSR or other upscaling options.
All XSS buyer and owner know, that they own the weaker non 4k console.
It is a cheap Gamepass machine.
If Sony made the move instead of MS, they would get several awards and praises just for the idea to have a lower entry next gen machine.
BTW: How many usable RAM do we now have on XSX and XSS?
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
FSR 2.1 will sort it right out.
sachos
Member
A good test to test if this is true will be taking a look at what the final games of the generation will look like between PS5 and XSX, if the theory is true by the end of the generation the difference should be quite noticeable since MS would still be supporting the XSS.
To me its clear that it will definitely hold back games, the question is to what degree will it do it. Its the same argument we are having right now about cross gen games holding next gen back. Richard from DF has explained how the problem may be the memory ammount and bandwith, and they have mentioned that some devs have expressed concern to them too.
To me its clear that it will definitely hold back games, the question is to what degree will it do it. Its the same argument we are having right now about cross gen games holding next gen back. Richard from DF has explained how the problem may be the memory ammount and bandwith, and they have mentioned that some devs have expressed concern to them too.
Crayon
Member
Ooooh I think not. That's not usually how it goes. Is ms getting grilled for it? You really think who exactly would be kinder to sony?
MatrixReloaded101
Member
They can't go to 720p because that would mean this console was falsely marketed by MS.
MS marketed the Series S as a next gen console that only has the limitation of doing 1080p, when clearly that's not the only limitation which is the issue.
Iced Arcade
Member
thanks random Ian
that's literally not true at all. It was marketed as a 1440p console, which many games are 1440p on it. Saying they can't go 720p (or any resolution for that matter) because it would be falsely marketed is dumb as hell. Then Microsoft and Sony both are falsely marketing XSX and PS5 for saying they are 4K or 8K consoles and then games run at 1440p or lower on it.
There is no requirement of resolution for a game to run at for it to be sold and played on any console.
MatrixReloaded101
Member
They are not going to release games that can only do 720p on the Series S.
RaZoR No1
Member
XSX and PS5 dont always deliver 4k games.
So what about these consoles?
MatrixReloaded101
Member
What about them?
We are talking about the Series S and the fact that you think devs should release games that can only do 720p lol
Akuji
Member
The Series S will stay through the whole generation. You cant sell that many consoles in a generational family and then abandon one without having major implications for consumers.
Not sure why devs are wasting their times. They fought for it before the gen and that was when they had to voice their opinion but not that ship has sailed.
As someone who doesnt have a series console and is unlikely to buy one ( Microsoft games are on PC day 1 ) i would lose trust in microsoft if they would do that.
And iam for SURE not a microsoft fanboy. So if wouldnt even affect me.
The changes between the S and X seems small but when u try to optimize your games and have certain systems that need some specific throughput of data or
is latencybound etc pp i see the difficulty for the devs. They need to find a middle ground which leaves both consoles not fully optimized for.
But that being said, many games are just fine. Not that many games have complicated systems that redline whats possible on next gen consoles.
So this issue is probably a next to non issue today but will grow, slowly over the generation and the impact it actually has, is only known at the end of the gen.
I think its gonna be noticable but not huge by any means. But iam a nobody on the internet giving his thoughts
Not sure why devs are wasting their times. They fought for it before the gen and that was when they had to voice their opinion but not that ship has sailed.
As someone who doesnt have a series console and is unlikely to buy one ( Microsoft games are on PC day 1 ) i would lose trust in microsoft if they would do that.
And iam for SURE not a microsoft fanboy. So if wouldnt even affect me.
The changes between the S and X seems small but when u try to optimize your games and have certain systems that need some specific throughput of data or
is latencybound etc pp i see the difficulty for the devs. They need to find a middle ground which leaves both consoles not fully optimized for.
But that being said, many games are just fine. Not that many games have complicated systems that redline whats possible on next gen consoles.
So this issue is probably a next to non issue today but will grow, slowly over the generation and the impact it actually has, is only known at the end of the gen.
I think its gonna be noticable but not huge by any means. But iam a nobody on the internet giving his thoughts
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
so this guy makes goat simulator knockoffs that run at 30 fps on series x and he's complaining, i'd immediately pull the plug if i were phil
Since when was there a baseline on what a system had to push out performance wise?
As long as it can play all the games released here on out whats the problem? Because some devs who are not even known to push the envelope are complaining? If the publisher wants devs to make it playable on potato then thats what the devs have to do with whatever sacrifices need to be made. If you care about performance you wouldnt have a series s anyways.
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True PC gamers don't give a fuck about games made for mouth-breathing dudebros like FIFA, NBA2K, and COD xxxxx!
Astral Dog
Member
Im not a big fan of the Series S hardware, but this is ridiculous, the manchildren will need to learn making games for that little green box for the next 10 years, better start now
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crazepharmacist
Member
Do you guys really think mainstream triple A developers like Activision, EA, etc. are going to come out and publicly shit on the Series S?
Astral Dog
Member
I think the point of the Series S, because of the economy, increasing dev costs and graphical fidelity, alot of the more casual gamers will just want to keep their Xbox ONE/PlayStation 4 for more years, Microsoft is offering an affordable jump to current gen because they want to aggresively target that market with reduced price and GamePass, they want to pass PlayStation sales numbers this time.
The downside mostly affects dedicated gamers who were expecting a bigger jump, and some developers who will complain, but its a good strategy regardless.
Most people won't complain if they think the graphics are already pretty and can play the latest games at a budget price
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Do you think these big aaa pubs want to limit themselves to who can buy their game? These companies try to cut costs anywhere they can left and right. Yeah i'm sure all the big aaa pubs are drooling at the thought of spending more money and allocating more resources to create these huge eye watering games. If anything they prob welcomed it since it means they can cheap out longer.
All the people who complain about games being held back are going to be the same people who will complain of game prices going up, dlc, lootboxes, digital games, in game purchases. Last of us remake looks amazing lets complain about the $70 price tag on it.
If MS doesn't eventually drop the requirement for developers to release both an S and X version then what is going to eventually happen is the PS5 and PC will be the systems where you can find cutting-edge games (among everything else) and XBox will be the system where you can only find games targeted to the lowest common denominator . Not saying games with low requirements can't be great (Hades, for example), but some of us want to be blown away by new games like the Dooms, Quakes, Half-Lifes, Gran Turismos, Last of Us, Uncharteds, Dead Risings, Gears of War, etc. did in their time. Geeez... imagine iD fucking Software being hamstrung by a goddamn Series S (Carmack or no Carmack).
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RaZoR No1
Member
We are talking about a budget next gen console which can be bought for less than 299€ or $ and we have upscaling solutions or other options like reducing the fidelity.
It is like someone bought a Switch and is angry because the devs only release sub 720p games when XSX and PS5 can run them on 4k.
Someone who knowingly buys a XSS does not really care about resolution and graphics as much as XSX or PS5 owners.
It is the same on PC too.
If you want all features whistles and bells, go buy the big GPUs. If not, entry level GPUs will be good enough.
Like people who bought a Wii in the past etc.
Children or people with smaller TVs wont just care about the pixels.
As long the games runs fine, it already fulfill its purpose.
CatLady
Selfishly plays on Xbox Purr-ies X
Apparently the "MANY" devs are actually the one guy in the OP who is not a dev, but a really crummy VFX artist that specializes in mobile games for iOS and Android and has nothing to do with optimizing games. He has also deleted his BS tweets.
His resume and Portfolio
Edward850, a verified Engineer at Night Dive Studios (System Shock Remake), has a very different take on the Series S than the clown in the OP.
Edward
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Series s is a nightmare to develop for....also, we have a switch version of our game coming out....