DragonNCM
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Counting money?
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Obsidian CEO reveals it's just half the size of many triple-A studios, even as it prepares to launch its 4th game in 5 years
- Thread starter LectureMaster
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StereoVsn
Gold Member
The problem is that it’s either all small or “Good for GamePass” titles.
I really don’t get the metrics MS is using to deem 6 years of Avowed development with a ~100+ (don’t forget contractors and QA) US devs a success. While it’s not a huge title, it’s still going to cost over $100mil, probably $150mil+ with marketing. Are the current sales plus GamePass engagement really a “mild success”?
I really wish instead they would have one substantial title with another smaller AA one (Grounded, Pentiment) vs producing two similar mid level (still expensive) games like Avowed and Outer Worlds 2.
A New Vegas, KOTOR 2, PoE3 type of game could bring success if done right. I guess there is too much risk to the studio to bet like that these days
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Edit: I am just kind of sad that some of my favorite studios of the past produce mid stuff (Obsidian and Bethesda) or just crap (BioWare).
I really don’t get the metrics MS is using to deem 6 years of Avowed development with a ~100+ (don’t forget contractors and QA) US devs a success. While it’s not a huge title, it’s still going to cost over $100mil, probably $150mil+ with marketing. Are the current sales plus GamePass engagement really a “mild success”?
I really wish instead they would have one substantial title with another smaller AA one (Grounded, Pentiment) vs producing two similar mid level (still expensive) games like Avowed and Outer Worlds 2.
A New Vegas, KOTOR 2, PoE3 type of game could bring success if done right. I guess there is too much risk to the studio to bet like that these days
.Edit: I am just kind of sad that some of my favorite studios of the past produce mid stuff (Obsidian and Bethesda) or just crap (BioWare).
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StereoVsn
Gold Member
I will agree to disagree with your definition of a great RPG. Avowed is mid RPG with perhaps fun combat, IMO of course.
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DownLikeBCPowder
Member
Time of day is, in fact, dynamic.
Pimpbaa
Member
What? I’m past the tutorial area. Only time it changes to night is when I camp.
Edit: I guess certain points of the story could advance time too
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DownLikeBCPowder
Member
Nope. If you do go to camp, it will become night and reset the timer, though. So if you go to camp too frequently, you will never see night, that much is true.
Pimpbaa
Member
The fuck? I’m looking at shadows in the game and they never move, and only camped like 2 or 3 times. Unless it takes a really long time to change time.
DownLikeBCPowder
Member
It does take a bit of time, not sure how long it is though. I just experienced sun up a moment ago while adventuring at night. It is slower than most game cycles, though, I think.
Bonfires Down
Member
Oh boy, I thought it said Fully Woked Edition.
vaibhavpisal
Member
Anyone calling Pentiment and Grounded mid or slop are just retarded.
Haven’t finished Avowed but so far it isn’t that either.
Only mid game they have ever made is Outer Worlds.
Haven’t finished Avowed but so far it isn’t that either.
Only mid game they have ever made is Outer Worlds.
Pimpbaa
Member
You’re right, just did a google search. I guess it’s just a combo of long day night cycle, camping resetting time, and me being not that far into the game (still only got fish Garrus with me). My bad.
vaibhavpisal
Member
I keep playing till its nighttime before going to camp. I enjoy the scenery at night.
Also makes a lot of sense, to come and rest at night after a hard day’s adventuring.
ShaiKhulud1989
Gold Member
80+ people in Irvivne plus contractors on a year scale easily cost more than efficiency giants like Saber and Like a Dragon studio. They can aim at ambitionless slop and it’s their right, but let’s not act like current Obsidian is a good ROI.
Herbspiceguy
Member
Sounds like an apologist article for bad quality and sales.
Gorgon
Member
I can't speak for Grounded or Pentiment. As far as I can say, they seem to be good. And I agree that "mild success" simply means they aren't going laughing to the bank after release, and will be pumping out mid-budget games that hopefully are good without aiming at the sky.
The issue is that some of those games, like Avowed and Outer Worlds, are just mid/ok games that don't deliver on most gamer's expectations for that type of titles. AtomFall looks more intriging as a game than any of those, for example, and it's a mid-budget game too. I'm not of the opinion that Avowed or OW are bad, but they do nothing for me or apparently for most people, Avowed especially. I hope Outer Worlds 2 turns out to be more interesting than the first, but I'm not keeping my hopes high.
So that's basically the issue I have with Obsidian: it's not their "AA" strategy, it's games like Avowed and OW. They do feel like Gamepass fillers, average games, even if they are not bad.
DownLikeBCPowder
Member
It's going to have to be a difference of personal opinion on this, but so far I am loving Avowed and I'm glad they spent whatever amount of time and money they did on it. I didn't care for Outer Worlds at all though. No interest in the sequel, but one day I may double back and try it again, because I do like that style of game. Was hoping for New Vegas in space, but that's not really what it felt like to me. There's no doubt you can't be expected to like everything they put out. I haven't tried Pentiment beyond booting it up and seeing what it was like, but seemed like it could be pretty good from first taste, but I also like point and click adventure games, which this seemed to be inspired by.
Also, Atomfall looks more like a Bethesda style open world, immersive sim RPG esque game, which Avowed and Outer Worlds are not - they are closer to something like KotOR/ME. I could be wrong though, I only watched some teaser and know very little about that game. So correct me if I'm wrong about that.
I just can't get behind Avowed being "average". I wish there were more "average" games like this, if this is "average".
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Honestly, I'd rather have one great game in 5 years than 5 slightly above average games in 5 years, especially if we are talking about RPGs, which IMO should be big and deep.
To be clear, I'm not saying all Obsidian games are just slightly above average, for example I think Grounded was great. But I just can't get into their newer RPGs, I dropped Outer Worlds after a couple of hours and even though I was interested in Awoved based on the reveal teaser, the more they showed, the less I cared for it.
To be clear, I'm not saying all Obsidian games are just slightly above average, for example I think Grounded was great. But I just can't get into their newer RPGs, I dropped Outer Worlds after a couple of hours and even though I was interested in Awoved based on the reveal teaser, the more they showed, the less I cared for it.
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Felessan
Member
Obsidian is truly an AA studio both by size and output
Normal studios outsource a lot of work during peak stage, so their own head count kept normal and extra 1000-1500+ people just hired for particular work.
Live service games are expected to provided amount of content roughly equal to the whole game every 2 years (for older games like wow/ff14) or every year (for Destiny, Genshin etc). They need all those outsourced staff all time, so they get them in on a payroll, it's cheaper/easier that way.
All live service teams are huge due to this, even King is 2000+ (there are also a lot of people on infrastructure team, those are not present in SP game studios)
They always were understaffed that impacted their ability to provide (and keep) content
Bungie is small by live service games standards
Normal studios outsource a lot of work during peak stage, so their own head count kept normal and extra 1000-1500+ people just hired for particular work.
Live service games are expected to provided amount of content roughly equal to the whole game every 2 years (for older games like wow/ff14) or every year (for Destiny, Genshin etc). They need all those outsourced staff all time, so they get them in on a payroll, it's cheaper/easier that way.
All live service teams are huge due to this, even King is 2000+ (there are also a lot of people on infrastructure team, those are not present in SP game studios)
ABK has 4 live service games and those require a lot of people.
Cert.in.Death
Member
Different approaches for different groups. I’m not sure frequency of releases is a good thing inherently, I remember Platinum Games taking a similar approach and how their quality and innovation eroded rapidly.
But, a fair counterpoint, Naughty Dog and Insomniac used to do the same thing releasing Uncharted, Ratchet, and Jak/Crash games, so it worked to raise their profile at a minimum. But would you prefer having the three Jak games over TLOU? Or the 4th Ratchet game instead of Spiderman?
But, a fair counterpoint, Naughty Dog and Insomniac used to do the same thing releasing Uncharted, Ratchet, and Jak/Crash games, so it worked to raise their profile at a minimum. But would you prefer having the three Jak games over TLOU? Or the 4th Ratchet game instead of Spiderman?
T4keD0wN
Member
I only know of CoD and Diablo, which are the remaining 2? Do you mean their mobile offshoots?
Felessan
Member
CoD (I included whole franchise with yearly, warzone and mobile into one), World of Warcraft, Overwatch and Candy Crash
Diablo is not technically live service though can be treated as such
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Make pitches for Half Life 3 just to have Gabe throw them in the trash.
Gorgon
Member
I have no quibles with what you wrote, I think it's a fair opinion. The thing for me is that when I look at OW I see a game that meets expectations in terms of design for a modern RPG title within it's budget, e.g. NPC reactivity in urban hubs. It may have ultimately dissapointed me for seceral reasons, but I think it's a justified approach in terms of budget and strategy. In that sense, I think Obsidian is right.
But Avowed gives me a very different impression, e.g. again the NPC reactivity, which I think is unexcusable. It seems like a title that provides fun with it's platforming/exploration and that could be compared to a "flashy looter-shooter" that satisfies the player. I'm good with that, even if it's not my thing. The art direction and tone are not my jam either, but again that's personal taste. But otherwise it feels...lacking when it comes to some other aspects I expect to be present in a "western RPG" of this type, and I don't mean that it has to be immersive-sim. And it's not like Obsidian can't do it with this budget (and they have done it before). Hope you get what I'm trying to say here. And when I called Avowed average, this is what I meant, but maybe it's not the best way to describe it: I can totally see the overall experience being above average for a many people, especially the combat and the platforming/exploration.
Regarding the criticism that some people (not you) have made by comparing Skyrim to Avowed, I think it misses the point and is unfair. KC2 has been praised to the heavens and doesn't have the interactivity that Skyrim has e.g. with every object in the environment. Neither does it go as far with the physics either. The Witcher 3 has nothing to do with deep world simulation unlike the former two titles but it doesn't break immersion either e.g. when you are in a city and how it feels alive. So, the point isn't that every RPG needs to be Skyrim or do deep NPC simulation; the point is that there things in Avowed that are difficult to justify by their absence, especially in this day and age and even with an AA budget. And they did it much better in OW, even if the game overall can be critisised in other aspects.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Thanks for the discussion.
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DownLikeBCPowder
Member
It certainly isn't a "flashy looter shooter" though, because loot certainly isn't a focus of the game. It's some kind of hyrbid of sorts, it definitely won't strike the appetite of everyone. I definitely get what you're trying to say here, but none of the things I often see criticized are impacting my experience whatsoever, and I'm not sure that adding them would add to my experience. Would it be nice to kill any and all NPCs I want? Yes, but even Elder Scrolls isn't allowing that since Morrowind (quest flags), increasingly so sadly. But I expect that of Elder Scrolls or something like Fallout. I don't expect that in something like Mass Effect, which I find to be closer in terms of design to Avowed.
As far as adding things like interactive wildlife, NPCs meandering about town, that would have no impact on my enjoyment of the game, personally. People are missing a really good game if this kind of thing is what's holding them up.
In regard to the art style - it is very much in line with what they explored and depicted in the two previous games that exist in the universe, so perhaps it's just not a style for some people and that's alright.
The reality is that most games don't go as far as Elder Scrolls in terms of applying physics to almost all items - so that sort of criticism rings hollow to me whensoever I encounter it. Most games simply cannot be compared to Elder Scrolls beyond surface level. Kingdom Come Deliverance is one of the closest titles for me to be comparable, though. Almost every game out there could be trotted out for such a comparison, but it's effectively pointless. Granted, most of those aggressively criticizing the game are doing so from an angle of bad faith, so it's really not worth the debate. Often it is the same few talking points which are parroted, some of which are false (though it doesn't really matter), and comparisons that make very little sense. I have a really hard time believing that if NPCs meandered around in town and you could attack boars in the wild that suddenly people would like this game. There is more at play here IMO.
vaibhavpisal
Member
Agree with this. It wont change much for me as far as enjoyment is concerned.
I was slightly annoyed I couldn’t access some areas at some point of story (due to storytelling reasons am assuming), so it doesn’t feel like IM sim.
Outside of that, not many complaints really.
Trogdor1123
Member
how was grounded? I thought it looked neat but never played it
Gorgon
Member
I totally agree.
Braag
Member
Kings of gamepass fodder.
Their games have lost the stellar writing they once had. They have never been particularly good when it comes to gameplay mechanics or visual fidelity.
They don't really innovate or take risks with massive productions.
They just, are. If that keeps them afloat then it's working I guess.
Their games have lost the stellar writing they once had. They have never been particularly good when it comes to gameplay mechanics or visual fidelity.
They don't really innovate or take risks with massive productions.
They just, are. If that keeps them afloat then it's working I guess.
vaibhavpisal
Member
One of my favourite games.
Level design and exploration is top tier. Played with 3 friends.
Idleyes
Gold Member
I almost forgot to mention: as long as Obsidian doesn't promote themselves like they’re in the heavyweight division, they won’t draw any negative backlash from gamers. They should keep their ads simple and avoid coming across as heavyweight contenders when they clearly aren't.
Edit: Like that ridiculous statement from the CEO comparing them to AAA studios, huge mistake. He’s setting expectations way too high, and then it's the classic surprised Pikachu when gamers show up with pitchforks and torches. At this point, he just needs to sit that ass down and STFU.
Edit: Like that ridiculous statement from the CEO comparing them to AAA studios, huge mistake. He’s setting expectations way too high, and then it's the classic surprised Pikachu when gamers show up with pitchforks and torches. At this point, he just needs to sit that ass down and STFU.
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Buggy Loop
Member
Played online coop with friends and it’s an amazing game. One of the most unique survival / craft game out there. Exploring the backyard at Honey I shrunk the kids scale is pure bliss. The sense of discovery and map design are S-tier
yurinka
Member
They were around 20000. After a few years not renewing contractors, rewarded voluntary early retirements and some small layoffs they're between 18000 and 19000 now.
It's worth mentioning that while in other AAA studios like MS/Obsidian most of the people who work in their games are external outsourcing studios, in case of Ubisoft most of their support teams are internal studios.
Ubisoft also uses a lot of external outsourcing, but proportionally way less than most AAA studios/publishers. This includes not only development, but many areas typically outsourced like localization, PR, CS, QA, player research, country specific marketing, etc.
They also have a lot of mobile gamedev teams.
Meaning yes, they are bloated but not as much as it seems. They simply do internally a lot of job that most other publishers externalize.
Until last year they released an expansion almost as big as some stawndalone games, this (or next) year will release Marathon, they have a new IP that will be published under PS Studio, a Destiny game for mobile developed with Netease that will be released this year, are working on movie/tv adaptations of their IPs and not sure if I forget something else.
Destiny 2 continues being a top 10 grossing game of the year in Steam, in 2024 was also a top 10 grossing game on Epic Games Store, one of the top 20 most played games on Xbox and some months also appears in the top 10 F2P PSN games, so I assume may be in the top 20 of 2025 PSN games (not in the top 10).
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Talk about an insane statement LOL! You people have clearly lost your minds.
GymWolf
Member
I'm talking lately, not when they were making new vegas\kotor 2 and other old beloved games.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
No I was more speaking on your thoughts on Insomniac. Current Obsidian shouldn't be compared to them at all.
GymWolf
Member
Nah, making a lot of games of variable quality in a short amount of time fit the description to a T, unless you are one of those who think that sp2 is actually a 92 on mc and that the last ratched wasn't meh as fuck, in that case, we have nothing to discuss.
The only difference is that insomniac can work with fucking spiderman so even if they make a turd, they are still gonna sell a truckload of copies like pokemon games do.
Sorry, i don't think that having a pre-existent world\character\lore that definitely shorten development times and straight up stealing the stealth and combat system from the arkham series (that also shorten development times) is worth of huge praises, no matter how much sony fanboys tell me how wrong i am.
So best i can give you is that insomniac is more successful but i'm no shareholder so i give 2 fucks about that.
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Felessan
Member
Industry is ok
Gamers though have some mental issues all over the place
proandrad
Member
Destiny expansion packs aren’t filled with scripted events, and the gameplay loop and just doing the same mission over again. The game missions are linear so they don’t require much thought other than looking cool. The enemy AI doesn’t change, and new enemies are just reskins of existing enemies. They add a ton of armor skins for the store, but I’m pretty sure most of the staff aren’t artist. With the quality of the content they release 800+ people seems excessive.
Wildebeest
Member
After Pentiment it seems like he was doing internal consulting work and not in charge of any game. Seem like from the NWN2 days Sawyer has been like a hired gun they use to get games shipped.
Punished Miku
Human Rights Subscription Service
That's interesting. But even if it's not him personally directing something or writing (I hope he is), they have other games already well into pre-production if OW2 launches this year.
Evil Calvin
Afraid of Boobs
WTF is Bungie doing with those 850 people?
Obsidian CEO reveals it's just half the size of many triple-A studios, even as it prepares to launch its 4th game in 5 years
Pint-size powerhouse.www.pcgamer.com
As reported by Windows Central, Obsidian CEO Feargus Urquhart revealed the extent of the studio's expansion since it was acquired by Microsoft in a recent interview with IGN. Since 2018, Obsidian has grown to nearly 300 employees, which is still pretty lean in the triple-A space.
"When we came on with XGS and Xbox , we were about 170, 180 people," Urquhart told IGN. "And through the course of the last five or six years, we've not only grown the studio to about 285 people, but we also have a lot of really good co-dev partners with Heavy Iron and Beamdog."
For comparison, here's how large some other major developers are:
Looking at those numbers, I'd put Obsidian at the lighter end of "midsize," a welterweight studio. That's something that makes its incredible productivity in recent years all the more surprising. As game budgets increase and five-plus-year development cycles become the norm, Obsidian has released three games since 2020—Grounded, Pentiment, and now Avowed—with a fourth, The Outer Worlds 2, due by the end of the year.
- Bungie: 850
- CD Projekt Red: 615
- Larian: 470
- Bethesda Game Studios: 450+
- Insomniac: 450 (YouTube video cited by Wikipedia has since been removed)
- Naughty Dog: 400+
- Valve: 336
- Sony Santa Monica: 250
- BioWare: Fewer than 100 (down from over 200)
- ZA/UM: ~70
We're not talking Valve levels of exerting more industry influence than 10,000-person conglomerates like Ubisoft or EA, but Obsidian's still a studio punching above its weight. Clearly, there's something to be said for the developer's "100-year plan:" Assume each game will be a "mild success" and not a sales record-breaker, and allocate time, money, and staff accordingly. Obsidian's games don't push the envelope in terms of graphics or simulation tech, but instead impress through design, writing, and art direction. In a recent Bloomberg interview, Avowed lead Carrie Patel quoted the team as consisting of 80 people in 2021, or about a third of the studio.
The sober, restrained sense of scope Obsidian's opted for in recent years stands in contrast with its wildly ambitious early games like Knights of the Old Republic 2 or New Vegas, which attempted to deliver on visionary promises in plus or minus one-year development cycles. They were amazing games, but they also wound up screaming across the finish line on fire and with their wheels falling off, and the studio underwent layoffs with its doors almost closing for good in the early 2010s. Obsidian's strategy is also an outlier in the games industry right now, with larger teams requiring more money and time to make games that each need to be a smash hit under threat of mass layoffs, while not necessarily having the vision or promise to justify such investments in the first place. I love sumptuous triple-A excess as much as the next guy, but not everybody is going to make Cyberpunk 2077 or Baldur's Gate 3.
And Obsidian has proven that the games resulting from more disciplined development practices won't be an inferior product or a downgrade where it counts. Pentiment and Avowed are among my favorite games of recent years—sorry Grounded, not a survival guy, but Fraser really liked you—and I've certainly enjoyed them more than most of the mega-budget fare on offer.
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