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[IFireflyl]

adamsapple , CatLady , SenjutsuSage , and DarkMage619 , you people gotta get your act together and start spinning this. The CMA is using Microsoft's own documents to prove that Phil is a liar. Tell us it isn't true! I was told that Microsoft is an honest corporation who would never lie for a temporary P.R. boost.

P.S. All corporations suck. Microsoft is a shitty little liar just like Nintendo and Sony. Maybe next time don't blindly defend a corporation that sees you as nothing more than a dollar sign. I told you that Microsoft was not a transparent company, and that they can say what they want to the public as there's no way for us to verify the information. When you provide your heartfelt apology I will welcome you back into my open arms with a loving embrace.

 

[Benniewise de Clown]

Weird. Consoles are selling well, Game Pass subs are going up. I get it tho. Sony is doing better therefore Xbox must be losing money and on the verge of shuttering.

Series S/X has been outsold by PS5 in their strongest market, despite a pricecut and PS5 shortages.

That says more than whatever picture you're trying to paint.

GamePass subs have become quite stagnant, that's why Spencer is gambling on the mobile market.

 

[Malio]

When I bought my Series S last year and got 2 years of gamepass for cheap, I had no intention of ever buying an Xbox game for it. I've kept my word, and I'm loving it.

Probably quite a few folks like that.

 

[DenchDeckard]

This was always so obvious, why wouldn't it. If you are a gamepass subscriber you'd be insane to also buy every game day one or close to launch.

I always thought Microsoft claimed it helped sales in the way that game pass is also like organic advertising. I'll talk about how good a game is and some other peeps in the office or my friends circle will a either buy it or b sign up for game pass...whichever they prefer.

 

[Dick Jones]

adamsapple , CatLady , SenjutsuSage , and DarkMage619 , you people gotta get your act together and start spinning this. The CMA is using Microsoft's own documents to prove that Phil is a liar. Tell us it isn't true! I was told that Microsoft is an honest corporation who would never lie for a temporary P.R. boost.

P.S. All corporations suck. Microsoft is a shitty little liar just like Nintendo and Sony. Maybe next time don't blindly defend a corporation that sees you as nothing more than a dollar sign. I told you that Microsoft was not a transparent company, and that they can say what they want to the public as there's no way for us to verify the information. When you provide your heartfelt apology I will welcome you back into my open arms with a loving embrace.

You might want to remove the names as you'll either get a ban for warring or it's deleted. And they will definitely report

 

[bentanchorbolt]

Series S/X has been outsold by PS5 in their strongest market, despite a pricecut and PS5 shortages.

That says more than whatever picture you're trying to paint.

GamePass subs have become quite stagnant, that's why Spencer is gambling on the mobile market.

15 million in 2020, about 30 million as of November last year. Yeah, that's "stagnant" alright.

And yes, PS5 is outselling the Xbox which we've established already lol.

Xbox is doing well financially, not as good as it should or could, but a far cry from the hyperbolic tale of being on the verge of exiting the market as you suggest.

 

[solidus12]

Now I get why people use these kind of pictures when talking about Phil.

 

[Ziglax]

This has been Microsoft's business model for years : keep their customer captives through services.
Once Game Pass is the only thing left after they buy Valve, they'll triple the price :>

 

[Banjo64]

adamsapple , CatLady , SenjutsuSage , and DarkMage619 , you people gotta get your act together and start spinning this. The CMA is using Microsoft's own documents to prove that Phil is a liar. Tell us it isn't true! I was told that Microsoft is an honest corporation who would never lie for a temporary P.R. boost.

P.S. All corporations suck. Microsoft is a shitty little liar just like Nintendo and Sony. Maybe next time don't blindly defend a corporation that sees you as nothing more than a dollar sign. I told you that Microsoft was not a transparent company, and that they can say what they want to the public as there's no way for us to verify the information. When you provide your heartfelt apology I will welcome you back into my open arms with a loving embrace.

In the Phase 1 summary, although redacted at times, there was loads of 'Microsoft's own internal documents support the assertion that X, Y and Z'. Some people just don't care. It takes a lot to say 'I'm wrong' and in some cases, some people can't say it at all.

 

[Benniewise de Clown]

15 million in 2020, about 30 million as of November last year. Yeah, that's "stagnant" alright.

And yes, PS5 is outselling the Xbox which we've established already lol.

Xbox is doing well financially, not as good as it should or could, but a far cry from the hyperbolic tale of being on the verge of exiting the market as you suggest.

There won't be 100M subs, not even close. Not as long as MS remains a console-giant.
That's what I'm talking about, not if they had a 'good' start.

Wasn't their aim the 2Billion market?

The rest of your post is just mental gymnastics.

 

[Allandor]

When I bought my Series S last year and got 2 years of gamepass for cheap, I had no intention of ever buying an Xbox game for it. I've kept my word, and I'm loving it.

Probably quite a few folks like that.

And that is totally fine. Gamepass etc for sure "hurt" sales in the first moment. But there is also almost nothing better for w company than a stable flow of income.
Also they can sell more DLCs to consumers than without gamepass. In the long run it is just another method of income. Who doesn't go with time goes with time. And currently time is definitely wanting something like gamepass. Guess why Sony introduced something very similar...

Haters will always hate it, but there was never an easier time to get into console gaming than now.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

There won't be 100M subs, not even close. Not as long as MS remains a console-giant.
That's what I'm talking about, not if they had a 'good' start.

Wasn't their aim the 2Billion market?

The rest of your post is just mental gymnastics.

You've thrown out delusional and mental gymnastics now. I wonder how many more buzzwords you'll toss my way if he keep talking about this? Good night man.

 

[j.k.2021]

Now I get why people use these kind of pictures when talking about Phil.

More like delusional PlayStation fanatics do who twist what he says to satisfy their egos.Phil Spencer gave that statement in 2018 when game pass had like 3 million subs and it was just a complementary service.Things will obviously be different when big games will launch to 30 million game pass subscribers.

 

[supernova8]

Anyone that thought any different was either lying or dumb

This is why those Xbox Series X/S bundles with Forza Horizon 5 make me chuckle. I know it's technically not free but surely anyone buying an Xbox at this point is getting Game Pass so you're just giving them a game that they're 99% going to get access to anyway.

 

[Crayon]

This whole thing is hinging on streaming and that's looking shakey. I was thinking it would be big like5 years ago. But that was based on my idea that it would be easier to migrate mobile players to real games. Now it seems more like most mobile gamers aren't interested in games that take two hands. Let alone ones that could do with a controller and a clip at hand.

 

[Benniewise de Clown]

You've thrown out delusional and mental gymnastics now. I wonder how many more buzzwords you'll toss my way if he keep talking about this? Good night man.

The buzzwords are Spencers. I'm just repeating what he stated.

 

[supernova8]

Yes it is really strange. They risk tarnishing their brand even more due to this.

Makes me wonder what they feel the consequences are if they don't get ABK.

I saw what they said to the regulation bodies but I'm wondering if they are holding back something.

Jim Cramer doesn't think the deal will go through.... for what it's worth (not a lot assuming he doesn't have any insider knowledge).

 

[PeteBull]

Sherlock Holmes said it properly in one of his famous quotes:
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

 

[StealthGoblin]

I thought this was obvious but when Phil Spencer et al said the opposite on other occasions I assumed there was something I'd missed.
It also gets worse for Microsoft the more 1st party games launch in the service.

Let's say that this year you get Starfield, Redfall, Forza etc included as part of the service - on that basis they've made a 'loss' as the sub doesn't cover the cost of the games RRP by quite some way.

Then in terms of 3rd parties, I sure as hell wouldn't buy a game I've got a 'free' copy of.

Model makes sense for GAAS games for sure.

 

[jm89]

Now I get why people use these kind of pictures when talking about Phil.

Leave him alone it's a condition.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Jim Cramer doesn't think the deal will go through.... for what it's worth (not a lot assuming he doesn't have any insider knowledge).

I think it's going to be pretty rough for them. Obviously COD is a big reason to buy ABK and if they don't get it then the deal might not be worth it at this point. It's all up to Microsoft at this point since they are then ones that have to accept those concessions.

 

[TheUndeadGamer]

I wonder if it would be a better idea after this year that MS games don't come onto gamepass day 1 and instead maybe in 4 months. Would that help increase retail and digital sales since they won't be on gamepass for quite a while?

 

[MistBreeze]

Is it not obvious?
Man … I know Microsoft is the richest company out there but

Playing AAA games like Forza horizon 5 ,, halo infinite ( with 500m $ development cost) , hifi rush , next starfield ( god knows how much development cost ) day ONE for basically Free of charge (or near free ) is dumb and harmful for any business

 

[Jigsaah]

Just wait until their OS is sub only. Large parts of it already are, and it will continue to boil the frog to the cloud based sub OS product. This has been talked about years ago.

I will buy a Mac so fuckin fast if that happens.

 

[FIREKNIGHT2029]

It was obvious from the start and I was trying to tell some very argumentative people but they didn't wanna believe it. Every time I would tell them what the facts were they would say "But Phil said…". Now the truth is finally coming out and we are learning that sales started dropping off in 2018, all that time when Phil was lying his ass off that GP was leading to more sales.

Phil is a liar and people need to stop quoting him like he's some saint that never lies.

 

[demigod]

A lot of people didn't think so

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/game...ox-scarlett-or-will-they-wait-it-out.1508392/

The 2 shitbags that tried to call me out are permed. I see the ones that tried to call you out didn't dare to show their faces today.

DanielsM died for this, shitty.

 

[demigod]

I'm glad the mods left this open. I checked reeeeee and they locked it after the 2nd post and redirected towards the acquisition where it gets buried.

 

[supernova8]

I think it's going to be pretty rough for them. Obviously COD is a big reason to buy ABK and if they don't get it then the deal might not be worth it at this point. It's all up to Microsoft at this point since they are then ones that have to accept those concessions.

I suppose their ultimate goal would be to make COD exclusive to Xbox and PC (i.e. keep it off PlayStation, I know I would, otherwise why bother spending all the cash). I wonder how much just being able to guarantee it comes to Game Pass at launch (and maybe giving GP subscribers perks on top) is worth.

Clearly what Microsoft/Xbox is trying to do is mitigate as much of the network effect that Sony/Playstation has going. If allowing COD to stay on Playstation isn't enough then all it proves is that Xbox's own first party lineup isn't good enough to entice enough people over to Xbox.

 

[ArcaneNLSC]

Leave him alone it's a condition.

Yeah Lyingcuntitis is a nasty thing

 

[Handel]

This was always the case when it came to the game that is on Gamepass itself, being sold on Xbox consoles. Where it leads to more sales is in sales of other games on Xbox that aren't on GamePass, sales of games leaving GamePass, and sales of those same games on PC/other consoles. Hi-Fi Rush has been a top seller on Steam for weeks after it got shadow dropped, and part of the reason for that is through WoM after people tried it on GamePass. GamePass allows one to try out games they might not normally touch, find that they like that style/genre, then they end up buying games in the future that are similar to that title(a foreign concept to many on here who are proud of playing only one type of game the rest of their life).

 

[Hobbygaming]

The real story of how Gamepass was created

*Satya knocks one time then bursts into Phil's office and catches Phil smoking weed*
*Aaron Greenberg leaves Phil and Satya with the last slice of pizza*

Satya: Are you Phil?
Phil: Yes I am and it is a pleasure to meet you sir I really...
Satya: What's that project you work on Z box, Y box?
Phil: Xbox
Satya: Yeah Xbox, does it make any money?
Phil: Well last week we made enough to get the teams Subway it was awesome!
Satya: Let me tell you something about me Phil, I am only here to win
Phil: I understand sir and that's why...
Satya: Shut down Xbox
Phil: But sir, the people love me. There's this fan named Colt and all you have to do is show him Xbox concept art and he'll market our games for free
Satya: No Phil
Phil: Well let's play rock, paper, scissors for it. If I win Xbox stays
Satya: I'm smarter and quicker than you motherfucker but ok let's go

*Satya wins*

Phil: Give me a rematch and if I win we'll just make Xbox a $15 subscription for shits and giggles
Satya: Ok one last game
*Phil wins*

Till this day you can still hear Satya yelling numbers at Phil down the hall

 

[demigod]

This was always the case when it came to the game that is on Gamepass itself, being sold on Xbox consoles. Where it leads to more sales is in sales of other games on Xbox that aren't on GamePass, sales of games leaving GamePass, and sales of those same games on PC/other consoles. Hi-Fi Rush has been a top seller on Steam for weeks after it got shadow dropped, and part of the reason for that is through WoM after people tried it on GamePass. GamePass allows one to try out games they might not normally touch, find that they like that style/genre, then they end up buying games in the future that are similar to that title(a foreign concept to many on here who are proud of playing only one type of game the rest of their life).

This is false. Hi-Fi Rush trailer looked good, it wasn't because of WoM or GP. Next thing you going to tell me Hogwarts is because WoM and not because it looks good right?

Lets see here one is MS telling folks at GDC and the other is them telling regulators, who should we believe?

 

[Majukun]

Are we really complaining criticizing them for giving us a good deal?
of course if i play it on gamepass i'm not gonna buy the game if it doesn't have huge replayability
but they are also probably getting more money from me ovr since usually i don't buy day one full price anyway

 

[Melchiah]

Which is not good for the industry and what many of us have said when we used the phrase, "race to the bottom."

They are trying to loss-lead the industry in a war of attrition so they're the only ones who can afford to stand on top by the backing of their parent company.

Sounds familiar with the HD DVD vs. BR format wars, where Microsoft's agenda was to delay the outcome as long as possible, because streaming was more beneficial for them. By devaluing games the same way streaming services devalued movies, they're attempting to hurt their competitors who rely on prestige titles and game sales, and can't rely on something like Windows, Office and Azure to make up for the losses.

Not to mention, that if they could force their way back to the popularity of the 360 days with acquisitions, they could bring back the parity clause, which would prevent 3rd party studios from taking advantage of competing platforms' strengths.

Why Microsoft won't publish PSN firsts

Downloadable games must ship on Xbox Live Arcade at least simultaneously with competing platforms or Microsoft may refu…

www.eurogamer.net

One representative from a publisher who wished to remain anonymous told Eurogamer Microsoft's policy blocks developers from taking advantage of other platforms' strengths.

"Microsoft is suggesting that anything but parity will result in them not carrying a title. They may think this is competitive, but it's not. They are killing any creative exposure of titles to make up for their own platform's shortcomings."

 

[Sanepar]

Weird. Consoles are selling well, Game Pass subs are going up. I get it tho. Sony is doing better therefore Xbox must be losing money and on the verge of shuttering.

Yeah the day Microsoft bring the numbers we can talk about that. Until there just pr bs.

 

[Handel]

This is false. Hi-Fi Rush trailer looked good, it wasn't because of WoM or GP. Next thing you going to tell me Hogwarts is because WoM and not because it looks good right?

Lets see here one is MS telling folks at GDC and the other is them telling regulators, who should we believe?

Your lack of reading comprehension is astounding. I said part of the reason for Hi-Fi Rush's quick success was good WoM, a game looking good from a trailer only gets things so far especially given how often trailers are misleading. Hogwarts has good reviews, and is a popular IP besides. WoM helps with any games success as it's a universal concept.

You do realize that what MS told regulators and what MS reported at GDC don't actually contradict each other, right? What MS told regulators has to do with direct sales of a game on Xbox when that particular game is on GamePass, the GDC report is about GamePass subscribers playing more games after subscribing, spending more overall after subscribing, that games on GamePass have a larger player base on average, and that indies on GamePass see x3 revenue growth.

 

[Heisenberg007]

I wonder if it would be a better idea after this year that MS games don't come onto gamepass day 1 and instead maybe in 4 months. Would that help increase retail and digital sales since they won't be on gamepass for quite a while?

It'll have to be at least 12 months to make any difference. Even then, it would not achieve the desired result because:

(1) Xbox has trained their gamers not to buy their first-party games, and
(2) There would be no ambiguity that games will eventually come on Game Pass after 12 months of release, so people can just wait.

Compare this to PS Plus, for example:

(1) Sony made it clear that they won't launch games on PS+ so PS userbase is trained to buy games, and
(2) Everything seems random, so no one can predict when a game will come to PS+ (if ever). Demon's Souls and Sackboy launched on the same day. Returnal and Rift Apart launched two-months apart. Only 2 of those 4 games are on PS+.

 

[TheUndeadGamer]

It'll have to be at least 12 months to make any difference. Even then, it would not achieve the desired result because:

(1) Xbox has trained their gamers not to buy their first-party games, and
(2) There would be no ambiguity that games will eventually come on Game Pass after 12 months of release, so people can just wait.

Compare this to PS Plus, for example:

(1) Sony made it clear that they won't launch games on PS+ so PS userbase is trained to buy games, and
(2) Everything seems random, so no one can predict when a game will come to PS+ (if ever). Demon's Souls and Sackboy launched on the same day. Returnal and Rift Apart launched two-months apart. Only 2 of those 4 games are on PS+.

Hmmmm that makes sense. Oh well

 

[ProtoByte]

Are we really complaining criticizing them for giving us a good deal?
of course if i play it on gamepass i'm not gonna buy the game if it doesn't have huge replayability
but they are also probably getting more money from me ovr since usually i don't buy day one full price anyway

For those of us who actually care about games as medium, which I would hope would be the majority on apparent enthusiast forums, the devaluation of the market is not a "good deal". Trading in quality for ubiquitous access and cheapness is counter to the whole idea of a leisure/luxury item.

You get what you pay for. If you're not willing to buy premium games that offer way more hours of active entertainment per dollar than almost any other medium, it's hard to see why you'd give said games your time and attention regardless of gamepass.

 

[GeekyDad]

Lol some folks will see no concern with this

Clueless people like myself.

 

[Majukun]

For those of us who actually care about games as medium, which I would hope would be the majority on apparent enthusiast forums, the devaluation of the market is not a "good deal". Trading in quality for ubiquitous access and cheapness is counter to the whole idea of a leisure/luxury item.

You get what you pay for. If you're not willing to buy premium games that offer way more hours of active entertainment per dollar than almost any other medium, it's hard to see why you'd give said games your time and attention regardless of gamepass.

the devs are still getting paid, the ones devaluating their franchises are MS and games devaluation ALREADY HAPPENED with steam sales.
so far the "premium" games i got with the subscription were as well put together as anything else, so i don't see the reason for the doom and gloom tbh

hell if anything we already know that a bunch of good games wouldn't have been made without gamepass according to the devs hemselves.

you see it as devaluation of the media, I see it as offering a safety net for devs to take risks

 

[demigod]

Your lack of reading comprehension is astounding. I said part of the reason for Hi-Fi Rush's quick success was good WoM, a game looking good from a trailer only gets things so far especially given how often trailers are misleading. Hogwarts has good reviews, and is a popular IP besides. WoM helps with any games success as it's a universal concept.

You do realize that what MS told regulators and what MS reported at GDC don't actually contradict each other, right? What MS told regulators has to do with direct sales of a game on Xbox when that particular game is on GamePass, the GDC report is about GamePass subscribers playing more games after subscribing, spending more overall after subscribing, that games on GamePass have a larger player base on average, and that indies on GamePass see x3 revenue growth.

No i read it fine, it had "nothing" to do with WoM from GP. The trailer looked good so people bought it. You might as well throw halo infinite in there too cause it got good scores and WoM right? Sure didn't see folks on Steam flock to it.

The indie x3 revenue growth is only because ms paid them for exclusive whereas they probably wouldn't make much. You think folks are going out of their way to buy indies when they can play it on GP? Please.

 

[Heisenberg007]

the devs are still getting paid, the ones devaluating their franchises are MS and games devaluation ALREADY HAPPENED with steam sales.
so far the "premium" games i got with the subscription were as well put together as anything else, so i don't see the reason for the doom and gloom tbh

hell if anything we already know that a bunch of good games wouldn't have been made without gamepass according to the devs hemselves.

you see it as devaluation of the media, I see it as offering a safety net for devs to take risks

The devs getting paid is a band-aid solution at best.

What happens when the studio (whether first- or third-party) fails to make a profit? Those devs get laid off. Just like devs from 343i, Bethesda, Coalition, etc. were recently laid off by Microsoft.

Video game sales are decreasing. Game development costs are increasing. These devs' jobs are also at risk, in addition to the overall health of the gaming industry as well as the quality of the games we get.

The doom and gloom is pretty justified -- especially if this dystopian day-one-subscription model gains any more traction.

 

[Majukun]

The devs getting paid is a band-aid solution at best.

What happens when the studio (whether first- or third-party) fails to make a profit? Those devs get laid off. Just like devs from 343i, Bethesda, Coalition, etc. were recently laid off by Microsoft.

that happens regardless of gamepass though?studios rising and dying has been a constant of the industry since its creation.
hell the well oiled first party machince created by sony in present days was built in the ps3 era over a lot of games and relatives studios being closed down so that the better ones could prosper.

Video game sales are decreasing. Game development costs are increasing. These devs' jobs are also at risk, in addition to the overall health of the gaming industry as well as the quality of the games we get.

The doom and gloom is pretty justified -- especially if this dystopian day-one-subscription model gains any more traction.

game development cost is increasing because production values (aka photorealism, hollywood level voice actors, stellar marketing) are increasing...if that's your concern, you should stop pretending always stellar graphics and voice acting and focus on gameplay, which is something I agree with.

but even in this case, this has nothing to do with gamepass...it's just that instead of spending money to create games and try to sell consoles, microsoft is putting money to make games and trying to sell subscriptions.

 

[ShadowNate]

I think the internal discussion means that they are well aware of the issue (how could they not, everyone knew as much, even their own subscribers), and that they have strategies planned to address this.

It does seem that they lean heavily on the subscription model anyway, so proper games sales should not really be their concern -- you can't have you pie whole and eat it too. They could always do limited retail or DRM-free digital (years laters) for an extra buck, low-cost remasters for old successful titles, sell related trinkets/collectibles/toys. There's stuff to do, they won't let it fail. Not as a silent fart anyway.

To be clear, I am not a fan of Game Pass, and really of any subscription for playing games, but there are many gamers that this model suits them, so whatever. I do avoid a game that I only maybe want to check out, if it's day-one on game pass and will prefer to properly buy it at a very high discount.

 

[The_Observer]

Is this industry really run by total idiots? Just imagine that you are skilled a game developer dreaming of making astonishing games. Then you realize what kind of people are the decision makers. I can't even...

 

[Flutta]

adamsapple , CatLady , SenjutsuSage , and DarkMage619 , you people gotta get your act together and start spinning this. The CMA is using Microsoft's own documents to prove that Phil is a liar. Tell us it isn't true! I was told that Microsoft is an honest corporation who would never lie for a temporary P.R. boost.

P.S. All corporations suck. Microsoft is a shitty little liar just like Nintendo and Sony. Maybe next time don't blindly defend a corporation that sees you as nothing more than a dollar sign. I told you that Microsoft was not a transparent company, and that they can say what they want to the public as there's no way for us to verify the information. When you provide your heartfelt apology I will welcome you back into my open arms with a loving embrace.

You're basically asking NPC's to use common sense.

 

[demigod]

In the Phase 1 summary, although redacted at times, there was loads of 'Microsoft's own internal documents support the assertion that X, Y and Z'. Some people just don't care. It takes a lot to say 'I'm wrong' and in some cases, some people can't say it at all.

I gotta give Banjo64 and thicc_girls_are_teh_best props. They have awakened from phils bs from what I've seen lately.

 

[oldergamer]

I Interpret this document a few ways...

1. Not many games actually stay in gamepass for a full 12 months. The overwhelming majority (outside of MS published titles or digital only titles) rotate in and out of gamepass every 3 to 4 months. Specifically when its a third party publisher.
2. if a game is on gamepass for 12 months and its still on store shelves then yeah, it likely will hurt the game sales. However its not likely making a lot at that stage anyway. its a trade off of more payment up front versus a wait and see approach
3. Very few games sell at full price 12 months after release. There's a reason games like GTA keeps selling, its not the type of game you would see on game pass. Sports titles have a single year shelf life already.
4. Most third party games that have disc releases appear on the service after being in market for a while. Some games do not appear for years.

I think a lot of people here simply don't understand some of the basic statements are are making a mountain out of a molehill. No MS didn't like, no spencer didn't lie, and no developers that praised it are not lying.

 

[JLB]

The competition was (still is) running circles around them in the market and they needed a positive bullet point for xbox.
That's also why you've been able to get years of gamepass for a dollar for years now.
It's as simple as that.

Sure, is that simple. You are genius.