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[James Sawyer Ford]

Niche VR games require a $500+ headset. Traditional niche games dont. That's the key difference.

I don't see why that's any reason to avoid the market. Even if MS doesn't design a headset, they could support third party ones.

 

[aries_71]

Minecraft, forza, sea of theives, flight sim, zenimax games, and soon Activision library.

MS has a gold mine of VR content. They could be a powerhouse with those content. Shame that they have no interest in VR.

MS learned the lesson with Kinect. Read their lips: no more gadgets.

 

[Sanepar]

For godsake, lets not pretend that either company is saint.

This is business, and each company will use what is in their disposable to gain advantage.

Neither company is saint, and neither of them are your friends.

They don't need to be saint. But they need to prove they can delivery high quality AAA sp games. If they do they can buy whathever they want. But if their last 10 years persist what MS will do is like what EA did to many studios but now in a big scale.

 

[HoofHearted]

 

[HoofHearted]

I hope we can all still be friends after Microsoft successfully acquires Activision this summer.

 

[HoofHearted]

I have a test, yet the argument here is more entertaining than that final test.

you can use this entire thread as a basis for your thesis ...

 

[HoofHearted]

I haven't been following but just got update recenttly, so MS pay Senators now? They allow MS to buy and Acti and Bethesda and remove games from PS, but ask Sony to stop Exclusive deals and not put Bungie Games Ps exclusive? what kind of joke is this?

check back wednesday.. even more exciting updates in progress

 

[Varteras]

check back wednesday.. even more exciting updates in progress

 

[feynoob]

you can use this entire thread as a basis for your thesis ...

I just finished it now. Skipped all coding questions.
I just need to hit C grade for my loan satisfaction.

Worst class experience in my life.

 

[feynoob]

They don't need to be saint. But they need to prove they can delivery high quality AAA sp games. If they do they can buy whathever they want. But if their last 10 years persist what MS will do is like what EA did to many studios but now in a big scale.

Xbox 10 years ago was like PS2 Sony.

Your AAA SP games needs studios. Not talented studios, but studios that can cover the gap between your big releases. MS didnt have those.
Right now they have that.

All they need to do is show that they can push their content consistantly with no delays.

 

[HoofHearted]

I just finished it now. Skipped all coding questions.
I just need to hit C grade for my loan satisfaction.

Worst class experience in my life.

pffft... you were coding in python right?

try cobol... or even better.. punch cards.. that's what I originally learned on..

 

[poppabk]

c'mon bro they can barely make traditional games and now you want they make VR games? let's go easy on them. they are just babies learning to walk.

MS made possibly the best VR game ever made.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

Right, they shouldn't invest in anything innovative and should instead focus on just trying to get something like Redfall out the door in a coherent state. Obviously VR is a luxury they do not have at the moment

I don't see VR as being innovative. Nintendo already did like 30 years ago. Only difference is that the tech is better now. Wasn't great back then and isn't great now. While I will wait for the 60FPS patch, if forced to choose between playing Redfall at 30FPS or VR, im going with Redfall every time. The sooner VR gaming dies, the better.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I don't see VR as being innovative. Nintendo already did like 30 years ago. Only difference is that the tech is better now. Wasn't great back then and isn't great now. While I will wait for the 60FPS patch, if forced to choose between playing Redfall at 30FPS or VR, im going with Redfall every time. The sooner VR gaming dies, the better.

Spoken like someone who hasn't played it at all

 

[feynoob]

I don't see VR as being innovative. Nintendo already did like 30 years ago. Only difference is that the tech is better now. Wasn't great back then and isn't great now. While I will wait for the 60FPS patch, if forced to choose between playing Redfall at 30FPS or VR, im going with Redfall every time. The sooner VR gaming dies, the better.

If you have the chance to play The witcher 3 vr vs redfall 30 fps, you will throw redfall to the trash bin, in order to experience that witcher 3 vr.

I used quest 2, and VR is an alien world my friend. Its like a real world, once you in that world.

 

[POKEYCLYDE]

MS made possibly the best VR game ever made.

They sure did.

 

[Three]

I don't see VR as being innovative. Nintendo already did like 30 years ago. Only difference is that the tech is better now. Wasn't great back then and isn't great now. While I will wait for the 60FPS patch, if forced to choose between playing Redfall at 30FPS or VR, im going with Redfall every time. The sooner VR gaming dies, the better.

By this logic neither is anything in the consoles today because Magnavox already did 50 years ago. Only difference is that the tech is better now.

 

[Rubim]

If you have the chance to play The witcher 3 vr vs redfall 30 fps, you will throw redfall to the trash bin, in order to experience that witcher 3 vr.

I used quest 2, and VR is an alien world my friend. Its like a real world, once you in that world.

Witcher 3 in VR would be a huge pass.

Some people assume they know how VR gameplay works, but many of their attempts to make it better end up being clunky and distracting. They often focus on adding "immersion" with gimmicks that don't actually improve the gameplay (Boneworks/Bonelab).

Valve realized early when developing one of the best VR Games that melee combat doesn't work well in VR, but shooting can be great if done properly. Another great game that figure it out that having a virtual body only makes everything worse was, Call of the Mountain PSVR2.

I enjoy the fuck out of VR, i just despise everyone that prefers to sacrifice gameplay for immersion.

 

[ToadMan]

if forced to choose between playing Redfall at 30FPS or VR, im going with Redfall every time.

But no one is forcing you to choose - so no need to play either of those like the majority of gamers won't.

 

[feynoob]

Witcher 3 in VR would be a huge pass.

Some people assume they know how VR gameplay works, but many of their attempts to make it better end up being clunky and distracting. They often focus on adding "immersion" with gimmicks that don't actually improve the gameplay (Boneworks/Bonelab).

Valve realized early when developing one of the best VR Games that melee combat doesn't work well in VR, but shooting can be great if done properly. Another great game that figure it out that having a virtual body only makes everything worse was, Call of the Mountain PSVR2.

I enjoy the fuck out of VR, i just despise everyone that prefers to sacrifice gameplay for immersion.

If you want gameplay, play it on non VR device. Let the VR enthusiast enjoy the immersion. That is the purpose of VR. To make you experience other worlds view and their scenery.

Combat is secondary object.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Minecraft has 2 different versions, one is PC exclusive (Java) the other is available on pretty much all consoles along with PC, cross-platform compatible and is forward compatible with future hardware and not tied to one platform (Bedrock).

Anyone can reasonably guess which version continue to get supported in that comparison. Counter to your argument, this shows that MS is invested in supporting the cross-platfrom version more than the platform exclusive one. They're already supporting the Windows/DX based version along with the Linux/PS based version for years.

So, no, this is not the same argument at all. It's actually the opposite.



I don't have minute to minute stats but as early as 2019, in popular servers, the Bedrock edition was outpacing the java edition, and this was year(s) ago.

It having support for all modern consoles makes it more accessible by default.


--

Anyway, that's enough on Minecraft from me, I'll avoid being dragged in this discussion any further now, thanks.

Most of what you have wrote is complete rubbish, especially when that SpigotMC based server you cherrypicked to back a false point about Bedrock bringing in more money/users - those servers are all running ... Java Minecraft with the spigot based modifications, only in the last 6-24months was a native Windows Minecraft Server released in Alpha level.

But either way, you've demonstrated how little the facts of Minecraft Java edition matter, as you are using the same MO that will be used to cast CoD on PlayStation - as the Java equivalent Minecraft - in years to come to justify the partial foreclosure strategy PlayStation has rightfully raised with the CMA.

ps
Was surprised you were bothered with my post enough to chuck in the reverse psychology babbling. Despite me enjoying hours on gaf discussing topics, I'm not the type to actually go through with contacting people like the CMA. If PlayStation(or Xbox or Nintendo, Valve, Nvidia, AMD, Intel, etc) are too lazy to read everything we all write on gaf to get their tips for things, then that's their shortcoming,

 

[PaintTinJr]

Xbox 10 years ago was like PS2 Sony.

Your AAA SP games needs studios. Not talented studios, but studios that can cover the gap between your big releases. MS didnt have those.
Right now they have that.

All they need to do is show that they can push their content consistantly with no delays.

Genuine question have I then missed their equivalents of Ico and Shadows of Colossus on Xbox from back then?

These aren't just two random games IMO, but critically acclaimed games that moved game development forward

 

[Ar¢tos]

I don't see why that's any reason to avoid the market. Even if MS doesn't design a headset, they could support third party ones.

There is no reason for 3rd party VR headset manufacturers to allow their headset to work on Xbox.
Xbox games are sold on Xbox store, not the manufacturer storefront, so they get zero money from game sales and hardware is usually sold at loss or pitiful profit. Even if MS gives them a cut of game sales, why would they settle for a spoonful when they can have the whole bowl?

 

[Three]

There is no reason for 3rd party VR headset manufacturers to allow their headset to work on Xbox.
Xbox games are sold on Xbox store, not the manufacturer storefront, so they get zero money from game sales and hardware is usually sold at loss or pitiful profit. Even if MS gives them a cut of game sales, why would they settle for a spoonful when they can have the whole bowl?

They wouldn't have a reason to block it. They can't. Just as they don't on PC where somebody might be buying steam games to use on their Meta headset. Xbox even tried to partner with Meta/Oculus for this ridiculous thing



But developers obviously didn't have an incentive to make native VR games on xbox due to install base and those owning a VR headset on top of that being a small fraction.

 

[adamsapple]

They sure did.

you know that's not VR, right ?

 

[Ozriel]

Sure, I get that. But Microsoft is the one under the microscope for potential foreclosure practices involving popular multiplatform IP that they outright bought. Sony is not. So the suggestion to ask what their plans are for Minecraft has merit, even if it's not all that strong, considering how long they've owned them and done nothing to affect parity.

Going after Sony over making deals for a different version of a game in a franchise Sony didn't buy, along with Capcom, on a peripheral that neither Microsoft nor Nintendo have bothered with, especially when there has yet to be a killer app on VR like Minecraft or CoD, in a corner of the market which is struggling and Oculus appears to be the bigger platform in... I don't know that's even an apt comparison.

Microsoft put all versions of Minecraft on PlayStation with full content parity + platform exclusive skins, put three Minecraft spin-off titles (Story mode, Legends and Dungeons) and even signs off on Minecraft Legends being added to PS+. Yet there's supposedly merit in quizzing them about their Minecraft plans?

 

[POKEYCLYDE]

you know that's not VR, right ?

Yeah... the joke didn't land. I've been contemplating suicide since.

 

[reinking]

...The sooner VR gaming dies, the better.

Why? You don't like it so everyone that does? I have never understood people that want to limit the industry. Without innovation it dies.

 

[Rubim]

If you want gameplay, play it on non VR device. Let the VR enthusiast enjoy the immersion. That is the purpose of VR. To make you experience other worlds view and their scenery.

Combat is secondary object.

Most big titles if not all seems to not agree with you.

Your suggestions seems a glorified Google Earth.

Even the newest fun game seems to align with me:

I think you should let the real vr enthusiast enjoy their gameplay.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Microsoft put all versions of Minecraft on the 120m console selling PlayStation 4 - using the PS4's SDK DirectX wrapper - with full content parity + platform exclusive skins, put three Minecraft spin-off titles (Story mode, Legends and Dungeons) on those 120M console too and even signs off on Minecraft Legends being added to PS+ for that 120m target audience at the end of the generation. Yet there's supposedly merit in quizzing them about their Minecraft plans for PS5 with no RT or PS5 patches in sight?

FTFY

 

[Jimmyisback]

This thread has gone off on weird tangents. I guess when you know the deal is gonna go through there's nothing more to discuss except topics that help you cope. People are in different stages of grief here. Bargaining. Anger. Or denial. Etc

 

[feynoob]

Genuine question have I then missed their equivalents of Ico and Shadows of Colossus on Xbox from back then?

These aren't just two random games IMO, but critically acclaimed games that moved game development forward

PS is 1 gen ahead of Xbox.

 

[Topher]

This thread has gone off on weird tangents. I guess when you know the deal is gonna go through there's nothing more to discuss except topics that help you cope. People are in different stages of grief here. Bargaining. Anger. Or denial. Etc

lol.....you really need to feel like folks are emotionally affected by this, don't you?

 

[Vyse]

This has to be one of our longest running threads!

 

[adamsapple]

This has to be one of our longest running threads!

It can and will be longer.

 

[Ozriel]

FTFY

I see. And yet you're among the folks here claiming MS can't wait to yank Call of Duty off PlayStation? install base no longer a convincing argument in that scenario?

Lol @ 'No PS5 patches or RT in sight' when there's also nothing of the sort on Xbox.

 

[Vyse]

It can and will be longer.

I expect nothing less.

 

[ManaByte]

I see. And yet you're among the folks here claiming MS can't wait to yank Call of Duty off PlayStation? install base no longer a convincing argument in that scenario?

Lol @ 'No PS5 patches or RT in sight' when there's also nothing of the sort on Xbox.

The XSX version of MW2 is far buggier than the PS5 version. I got into a crash loop with an auto save on the final mission.

 

[adamsapple]

I see. And yet you're among the folks here claiming MS can't wait to yank Call of Duty off PlayStation? install base no longer a convincing argument in that scenario?

Lol @ 'No PS5 patches or RT in sight' when there's also nothing of the sort on Xbox.

I think replying to him is a zero sum game, just look at our last couple of exchanges. He specifically cites Minecraft Java being abandoned as a reason for MS to yank CoD off PS platforms, while completely ignoring that MS abandoned the Java version of Minecraft in favor of the Bedrock version *FOR* compatibility with PS, Switch, Xbox and future PC/console hardware.

 

[reksveks]

Damn you redactions.

My only comment/thoughts about this subthread

 

[poppabk]

They sure did.

Show me a game with horror that will chill you to your core like this game.

But seriously - Flight Sim is one of the best VR games available although it does serve to piss me off that MS doesnt support other games in the same way or even release PCVR games on gamepass that they already own.

 

[PaintTinJr]

I see. And yet you're among the folks here claiming MS can't wait to yank Call of Duty off PlayStation? install base no longer a convincing argument in that scenario?

Lol @ 'No PS5 patches or RT in sight' when there's also nothing of the sort on Xbox.

You would need to provide an exact quote from me that says that - verbatim - for me to then retract, although I'm pretty sure my take from the beginning would be they would wait until a new console and then foreclose, which is the point about Minecraft PS4 games, we have known from Xbox's DF reveal that a RT version was in the works for Series, and the actual developed version went live in pre-release for both S and X, and as my comment addition was worded "with no RT or PS5 patches in sight".
"Sight" being the important word, as we haven't anything to view of parity or any hint of a PS5 version.

 

[mrmustard]

Not sure if it was already posted, but i want to make sure you guys don't run out of ammo:
https://gamingideology.com/2023/04/...y-turn-over-all-exclusives-related-documents/

 

[adamsapple]

Damn you redactions.

My only comment/thoughts about this subthread

Is this a new one or the same one as before?

 

[reksveks]

Is this a new one or the same one as before?

It's from the addendum from a month ago when they removed the SLC concerns on the console market.

To be slightly less obtuse and probably constructive, my thoughts are that there is two keys things around any foreclosure strategies, probability and the impact of that strategy. I don't think the impact has been well-defined by anyone and the probability is dependent on the strategy. Ultimately if the impact is immaterial then the probability decreases and also becomes less of a factor anyways. Think MS probably does implement some content exclusivity (although they have at least in theory tied their hands on that front), not sure about performance.

I will let the thread go back to whether MS has implemented some partial foreclosure previously.

 

[PaintTinJr]

... He specifically cites Minecraft Java being abandoned as a reason for MS to yank CoD off PS platforms, while completely ignoring that MS abandoned the Java version of Minecraft in favor of the Bedrock version *FOR* compatibility with PS, Switch, Xbox and future PC/console hardware.

If that was the word I used - pretty sure I said degraded - then that was a mistake, because obviously they still have to support the Java version for the entire world's MC serving needs currently, and the client gets minimal work to keep it selling - far more than bedrock - on the largest platform but the notion that a $2Trillion company that spent $3B on a game for its cultural impact - words to that effect - and then can't afford to maintain the original version properly at a cost of less than $50m per year, because of a forked version using their own proprietary APIs - they can then use to easily capture players to their own platforms exclusively - is eating all the dev resources is surely not a real point you are making, is it?

The Java edition is the major money maker, and many of the existing bedrock versions being used on PC were bought as the Java edition and were gifted the proprietary version freely by switching to a proprietary windows launcher.

 

[adamsapple]

It's from the addendum from a month ago when they removed the SLC concerns on the console market.

To be slightly less obtuse and probably constructive, my thoughts are that there is two keys things around any foreclosure strategies, probability and the impact of that strategy. I don't think the impact has been well-defined by anyone and the probability is dependent on the strategy. Ultimately if the impact is immaterial then the probability decreases and also becomes less of a factor anyways.

I will let the thread go back to whether MS has implemented some partial foreclosure previously.

I legitimately wonder if the CMA are doing anything again in response to Sony's own calculations from a few weeks ago, we're very close to their 26th April deadline, and usually if there are any more extensions required they would have announced that by now.

We are dangerously close to this thing coming to a conclusion one way or the other now.

 

[Ozriel]

You would need to provide an exact quote from me that says that - verbatim - for me to then retract, although I'm pretty sure my take from the beginning would be they would wait until a new console and then foreclose, which is the point about Minecraft PS4 games, we have known from Xbox's DF reveal that a RT version was in the works for Series, and the actual developed version went live in pre-release for both S and X, and as my comment addition was worded "with no RT or PS5 patches in sight".
"Sight" being the important word, as we haven't anything to view of parity or any hint of a PS5 version.

The Ray tracing version of Minecraft shown to Digital foundry was ALWAYS cited as a tech demo to show off the consoles Ray tracing chops. It was never billed as a shipping product.

There was also never a 'pre-release version' that went live on Xbox Series consoles. No release in sight, and Mojang quickly disabled it and explained it was prototype code that was included in error.

Microsoft brings Minecraft to all platforms under the sun and you're expecting them to be quizzed over an insidious plot to make an exclusive Ray tracing mode for Xbox. Even with your long track record of illogical arguments, this one is surprisingly absurd.

 

[PaintTinJr]

The Ray tracing version of Minecraft shown to Digital foundry was ALWAYS cited as a tech demo to show off the consoles Ray tracing chops. It was never billed as a shipping product.

There was also never a 'pre-release version' that went live on Xbox Series consoles. No release in sight, and Mojang quickly disabled it and explained it was prototype code that was included in error.

...

I'd have to go back and check, but pretty sure I read the channel by which it made it onto actual consoles was described in the explanation as "pre-release" channel.

The idea that prototype code just happens to accidentally enable a feature that needs lots of integrating into a game to work at all is quite the hand waving away. You make it sound like turning on gouraud shading from flat shading.

 

[Varteras]

Microsoft put all versions of Minecraft on PlayStation with full content parity + platform exclusive skins, put three Minecraft spin-off titles (Story mode, Legends and Dungeons) and even signs off on Minecraft Legends being added to PS+. Yet there's supposedly merit in quizzing them about their Minecraft plans?

I did say it's not all that strong because they've not done so after so many years of owning it, did I not?

It has infinitely more merit than someone using a logical fallacy to go after someone over how they feel about a PSVR version of a Resident Evil game being the only console VR version when, A) how he FEELS about it is irrelevant, and B) it is not an apt comparison for all the reasons I pointed out in my post.