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[adamsapple]

I was assuming they agreed to October in the event that CAT reject the resubmission plan and persevere with the original appeal (which I'm sure they said they'd aim to wrap up around October time?).

Yeah I think October is just a window to give them more time in case of unforeseen things. I gotta imagine MS and Activision are both scrambling to get it done before that so it doesn't go right down to the wire like 18th July.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Although most 1st party games don't leave Gamepass most 3rd party games will leave at some point. So the discount does come in handy. People for years paid for Gamestop Pro membership to receive 5% off or whatever it was on game purchases. People pay for all kinds of memberships to get a percentage of purchases.

A small percentage of people duped into paying a fee for the privilege of a "discount" (which they would have gotten anyway by just waiting for the eventual sale), don't represent the majority. They're not even statistically significant.

The mainstream gamer is surprisingly frugal, and won't shit their hard-earned money down the toilet playing a monthly fee for discounts on games when games come down in pricing anyway and so you can simply wait for free and buy them cheap later on.

Again, these contrived scenarios you guys are citing are just examples of the shitty value proposition GP becomes when you subscribe to the service AND buy games. The majority of subscribers to the service just aren't doing this.

 

[mayham2199]

Because that is what the judge instructed. If what you said is true he would have adjourned things without any more to say. Instead he schooled every barrister in the room for a long time about the law, even Beard who thinks he's the legal equivalent of Maverick

Here's the part from page 3 where the judge clearly is needing convinced for granting the adjournment and that it is a test they must pass to get what they want.

So has the CMA submitted anything to the judge? I thought it was supposed to be turned in today?

 

[POKEYCLYDE]

The argument is that gamepass makes this aspect worse on 2 counts:

- the person who wants early access is also forced to purchase DLC sight unseen for a game they don't even have a permanent license for.
- people are more likely to say "fuck it" and pay whatever's required to get early access because it it appears "cheaper" than if you were to purchase the game anyway.

It's all a massive trap designed to prey on people's emotions but yet people are defending it. There is absolutely no way purchasing DLC for rented games is a logical purchase. Nobody in their right mind would pimp out their rental car or throw down money to renovate a home they don't own, the same applies here albeit on a much smaller scale.

I'm not even surprised, I was one of the few here pushing back against horse armour at the time and look where we are now. People are demonstrating that there's appetite to outright purchase DLC for games that they are renting, it's the start of a new huge slippery slope. I'll be first to say told you so when these guys start introducing "gamepass only" games.

The problem is what you're describing isn't a problem that is exclusive to Gamepass. It could also be said for digital purchases.

If I get the premium edition of Starfield (digital), and I end up hating the game, I'm stuck with my purchase because I can't resell my digital purchase outside of extreme circumstances.

If I no longer find value in Gamepass because Starfield is the only game I play, I can unsubscribe and buy Starfield at a discount. The DLC I bought with the "premium upgrade" will work on Gamepass and on a bought copy.

It really is illogical to buy DLC ahead of time and it is illogical to buy early access for a single player game, but this doesn't stop people from doing it. Adding an extra layer illogicality (buying DLC for a game you're subscribing to get access to) doesn't supplant the blame onto that subscription service.

 

[Vox Machina]

Yeh, that's how it always starts.

Is it? Is there an example of another sub. service that allows you to optionally purchase all of its content that has removed the ability to purchase all of its content?

 

[DForce]

So has the CMA submitted anything to the judge? I thought it was supposed to be turned in today?

It was probably turned in already and we're just waiting to hear from the Judge.

 

[havoc00]

It was probably turned in already and we're just waiting to hear from the Judge.

He's waiting to be satisfied

 

[Topher]

 

[GHG]

The problem is what you're describing isn't a problem that is exclusive to Gamepass. It could also be said for digital purchases.

If I get the premium edition of Starfield (digital), and I end up hating the game, I'm stuck with my purchase because I can't resell my digital purchase outside of extreme circumstances.

If I no longer find value in Gamepass because Starfield is the only game I play, I can unsubscribe and buy Starfield at a discount. The DLC I bought with the "premium upgrade" will work on Gamepass and on a bought copy.

It really is illogical to buy DLC ahead of time and it is illogical to buy early access for a single player game, but this doesn't stop people from doing it. Adding an extra layer illogicality (buying DLC for a game you're subscribing to get access to) doesn't supplant the blame onto that subscription service.

Nowhere did I say it's exclusive to gamepass. It's right there in my very first sentence:

The argument is that gamepass makes this aspect worse

 

[Varteras]

So has the CMA submitted anything to the judge? I thought it was supposed to be turned in today?

It was probably turned in already and we're just waiting to hear from the Judge.

Yep. Likely that it was submitted and now the judge needs time to consider it. He'll want to make sure the new deal is sufficient to warrant the change in the CMA's stance.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

The games people are least likely to buy are the MS ones because they dont leave the service.

Agreed.

I think for smaller games or games reviewed unfairly negatively it can be a boost.

I don't even disagree. GP is a boon for shitty games. Since it lowers the cost of entry so people can play them to see if they have any entertainment value at all.

I think it also boosts a game's sales on other systems even, if its good.

Nah... I can't see how it can possibly do this.

People with multiple consoles aren't subscribing to multiple subscription services. And most Xbox gamers will own a PC as a second platform before any of the others. And GP is available on PC, so why buy the games on PC when you can just access GP there? It doesn't make sense.

Spencer has mentioned that and it makes sense to me. Visibility and discussion increase a lot.

Lol, Spencer is full of shit. We all know this by now. You should too.

 

[feynoob]

I thought things were really gonna move fast esp when the CMA was like Thursday sounds good and talking about urgency and now nothing lol

Whenever there is no news, we go back to our old news.

 

[SomeGit]

Of course, but while you're "all-in" and engaged with the service thats not what anyone thinks about. Which is why as many people use it and keep using it. If you have discussions with people on there there are plenty of people who will gladly admit to being "trapped".

Yeah but like, man, you knew that when you went in. It's not like loot boxes or FIFA packs where you are spinning a wheel and don't know what you get (hint, it's most likely crap). And I'll admit fully well that I bought lots of TF2 creates in the past for content I could have spent literally a fraction of, in that I feel suckered.

But sorry, I can't say same of a content you know what it is and that it requires the subscription you already bought. I can't agree on this, sorry. And much less about GP DLC, you know fully well when the game is out of GP you need to buy the base game.

And you have my word I'll complain when a game gets GP exclusive.

 

[Varteras]

People with multiple consoles aren't subscribing to multiple subscription services.

 

[Vox Machina]

Is it possible to have a factual discussion around here please?

The facts of the matter are that Game Pass allows the user to optionally buy the game for whatever reason they want. If you want to argue about a hypothetical future where Xbox suddenly, without warning, removes the ability for users to purchase the base games then just be honest about the fact that that's a hypothetical situation and we've seen no evidence to suggest that would ever happen with Game Pass.

 

[Banjo64]

So has the CMA submitted anything to the judge? I thought it was supposed to be turned in today?

Deadline was lunch time today but the Judge has to review this. Optimistically I'm saying he might release a statement tomorrow afternoon, but it could be early next week.

 

[GHG]

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

There's always one

 

[adamsapple]

People with multiple consoles aren't subscribing to multiple subscription services.

 

[Varteras]

There's always one

 

[Three]

That's interesting. I didn't know that. I'd argue that's a very different type of "Early Access" though because it's not available to everyone (have to live near a Cinema offering the show), and you have to interact with the content in an atypical way (have to travel to the Cinema vs streaming it at home). No wonder it flopped. Early Access for games has not had any of those issues.

But people were going to the cinema, it wasn't atypical. The chain of replies started on how the entertainment/movie industry profits dropped 90% in 10yrs and how that is mostly due to streaming subscription services.

How would you explain this if not what was typical becoming atypical much like buying games or even consoles or PCs has become atypical for some now.

 

[PaintTinJr]

You could be right forsure and maybe this deal dies but I'm really curious about your stance if it does somehow go through, how pissed would you be? You seem passionate about your hatred of it so if it does pass would it get you to quit gaming?

Why would I quit gaming? If anything I'll try and game more, and be more open to GaaS by Sony in the FPS genre that I otherwise wouldn't have, to potentially help them find a money making replacement success for CoD, because the really anti-competitive part of this deal is for the behemoth that is Microsoft to control and dry up a major amount of Sony's gaming income to damage their first party output via funding risk, and hamper Sony's ability to compete by starving them out.

 

[mayham2199]

lol this is me. Signed up for GP and PS+. Overall I think I'm done with sub services. There not bad but PC has so many game sales and I have such a back log I just don't really need to use the service. Plus I want to go back to strictly just using steam big picture mode and now that everyone has given up and gone back to Steam (minus epic) I can do that. I'd rather pay a little more and just own the games which is funny considering I almost never replay a game I beat.

 

[GHG]

The facts of the matter are that Game Pass allows the user to optionally buy the game for whatever reason they want. If you want to argue about a hypothetical future where Xbox suddenly, without warning, removes the ability for users to purchase the base games then just be honest about the fact that that's a hypothetical situation and we've seen no evidence to suggest that would ever happen with Game Pass.

Going back to an old post and taking it completely out of context for no reason other than to post marketing/PR?

I smell a mage.

Yeah but like, man, you knew that when you went in. It's not like loot boxes or FIFA packs where you are spinning a wheel and don't know what you get (hint, it's most likely crap). And I'll admit fully well that I bought lots of TF2 creates in the past for content I could have spent literally a fraction of, in that I feel suckered.

But sorry, I can't say same of a content you know what it is and that it requires the subscription you already bought. I can't agree on this, sorry. And much less about GP DLC, you know fully well when the game is out of GP you need to buy the base game.

And you have my word I'll complain when a game gets GP exclusive.

Knowing what the content is isn't what makes the difference here man. It's the methods used to keep users spending money (or spend more than they usually would absent of manipulation) that is the issue.

 

[j0hnnix]

 

[PaintTinJr]

So has the CMA submitted anything to the judge? I thought it was supposed to be turned in today?

According to the Cardwell interview, today, nothing has been submitted because they don't have the proposal or back statement from Microsoft.

 

[adamsapple]

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Gaffers are clearly the exception.

I mean, anyone who can waste this much time knocking about on a forum and not working their full-time job has enough disposable income that they aren't thinking a lot about their spending on their gaming hobby.

I mean, some of these mofos are like Arab sheikhs or some shit.

 

[gametimedecision]

Why would I quit gaming? If anything I'll try and game more, and be more open to GaaS by Sony in the FPS genre that I otherwise wouldn't have, to potentially help them find a money making replacement success for CoD, because the really anti-competitive part of this deal is for the behemoth that is Microsoft to control and dry up a major amount of Sony's gaming income to damage their first party output via funding risk, and hamper Sony's ability to compete by starving them out.

Sony is gonna be fine bro, they could release a plastic box that doesn't turn on and they would still sell about 20mil

They are too big to fail at this point. The Spider-Man 2 trailer that just dropped alone is breaking the internet…there's nothing to worry about

 

[Banjo64]

According to the Cardwell interview, today, nothing has been submitted because they don't have the proposal or back statement from Microsoft.

Did she explicitly say nothing has been submitted today or did she just say the ball is in Microsoft's court because they are awaiting their new submission?

My impression was that the judge understood that no formal written proposal had been put forward, but that he wanted the CMA to summarise any discussions they've had with Microsoft and why they view those early plans as having a realistic chance of removing the SLC.

 

[havoc00]

I have ps plus and gamepass I'm prob gonna dump ps plus because most Sony games are one and done I'll still fire gears up mccc etc with gamepass

 

[GHG]

Gaffers are clearly the exception.

I mean, anyone who can waste this much time knocking about on a forum and not working their full-time job has enough disposable income that they aren't thinking a lot about their spending on their gaming hobby.

I mean, some of these mofos are like Arab sheikhs or some shit.

Why work a full time job when you can get other people to work full time jobs for you?

Spoiler

But in all honestly I'd prefer to spend the time that I do on here gaming if I didn't have to be online in order to babysit.

 

[Ginzeen]

They told the judge directly that they were still waiting for the final report.




So regardless of the Judge's decision, they're still waiting for MS to provide it.

Yes but the judge already got what was needed today. Judge is a non issue. No point in a appeal when both sides don't want it. Waste of time and resources for all involved. Whatever evidence is provided will be enough. Very low chance the judges rejects. As low as ABK walking when the contracted expired Tuesday.

 

[Vox Machina]

But people were going to the cinema, it wasn't atypical. The chain of replies started on how the entertainment/movie industry profits dropped 90% in 10yrs and how that is mostly due to streaming subscription services.

How would you explain this if not what was typical becoming atypical much like buying games or even consoles or PCs has become atypical for some now.

Even if Game Subscription Services become the typical they don't suffer from the revenue-producing problems that contemporary Movie/TV and Music Subscription Services do. Cinemas had multiple channels for revenue-production outside of their share of the movie-ticket price, Netflix and Spotify don't. Currently they only earn their money from the base sub. fee. Game Subs don't have that issue. They're like a hybrid between the Cinema and Netflix. They offer a catalogue similar to Netflix but they also offer full purchase (DVD/Blu-Ray) and they also offer popcorn and drinks (DLC/MTX) similar to Cinemas.

My point is pointing to that chart and going "Look you guys it's gonna happen to games too!!!!" is a surface-level read of the business models involved and, frankly, just an incorrect correlation.

 

[feynoob]

Dont know why people are arguing with subscription service.

You have two option.

Buy the full game and pay the online service, if you play online game. Or pay the subscription fees, which is small amount of money and wont leave that much dent on your bank.

3 day1 games(xbox/EA/Ubisoft/PS) is $210 bucks these days.

1 Year of EA premium/Uplay+ is $180. Or pay 45$ for 3 month each and finish those 3 games. That will save you money, with downside that you wont own your games.

For Xbox/PS you essentially need to pay online mode. So 3 games plus online mode will cost you $270.
XGPU is 204 for 1 year. That is a $66 saving. While PS+ premium is $120 yearly or $180/$216 yearly. Caviet is that you wont get day1 games, but with in 1-2 years.

The only valid argument against this game ownership. PS+ games leave the service, so its unreliable. EA licensed games leave the service, same with MS FH games.

The choice depends on you whether you want to own your games or whether you want to save your money. There is no wrong answers here.

Finally, gaming is a hobby, not a job. There will be a time when you wont be able to play them. So my advice for you is to enjoy them while you can.

 

[Banjo64]

GHG I can't help but notice the similar writing style now you've highlighted it

 

[SomeGit]

Knowing what the content is isn't what makes the difference here man. It's the methods used to keep users spending money (or spend more than they usually would absent of manipulation) that is the issue.

I don't agree with that, sorry. I guess I'll have to stop here cause otherwise we'll just go in circles.

Any additional expense would be this, but in any case, but I can't agree with the "suckered" part. Lots of games I picked up over the year of Steam sales that I barely touched, I still don't feel "suckered". I knew fully well what I signed up for. As long as you can still access the content at any time, if I resub or buy the base game again, I don't feel get.

I feel get when they shut off the servers or remove the ability of access the DLC with the base game. Or shit like loot boxes or battle passes that expire and you are unable to get content. There's plenty of example of predatory monetization but I don't know, I can't agree with the ones listed.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Yes but the judge already got what was needed today. Judge is a non issue. No point in a appeal when both sides don't want it. Waste of time and resources for all involved. Whatever evidence is provided will be enough. Very low chance the judges rejects. As low as ABK walking when the contracted expired Tuesday.

It isn't when he had to tell his own CMA that it isn't legal for Microsoft to be triggering sections of the act, but the CMA assessment and decisions based on evidence, to meet the legality of the job they do in the public interest

He doesn't trust that the CMA's position could withstand a legal challenge from a 3rd party in how they've acted, and the time and resources involved in such a challenge would be even more resource heavy. He is making sure none of that crap is dripping on to his feet, it is far from a foregone conclusion, and he's stipulated requirements for 3rd party feedback.

 

[DForce]

Yes but the judge already got what was needed today. Judge is a non issue. No point in a appeal when both sides don't want it. Waste of time and resources for all involved. Whatever evidence is provided will be enough. Very low chance the judges rejects. As low as ABK walking when the contracted expired Tuesday.

The judge will likely grant it, but you're only assuming based on how you feel, not based on a report.

If the Judge was a non-issue, then the CMA would side step his decision and they can't.

 

[feynoob]

GHG I can't help but notice the similar writing style now you've highlighted it

I smell a mage.

You dont need to go that far.
The account has been made specifically for this thread.

 

[Punished Miku]

Agreed.



I don't even disagree. GP is a boon for shitty games. Since it lowers the cost of entry so people can play them to see if they have any entertainment value at all.



Nah... I can't see how it can possibly do this.

People with multiple consoles aren't subscribing to multiple subscription services. And most Xbox gamers will own a PC as a second platform before any of the others. And GP is available on PC, so why buy the games on PC when you can just access GP there? It doesn't make sense.



Lol, Spencer is full of shit. We all know this by now. You should too.

I meant people not involved with Xbox at all hear about a game on GP more than not if an extra several million people talk about it. They may only own Switch or PS. It just means its more marketing.

 

[Sanepar]

Of course, but while you're "all-in" and engaged with the service thats not what anyone thinks about. Which is why as many people use it and keep using it. If you have discussions with people on there there are plenty of people who will gladly admit to being "trapped".



Yeh, that's how it always starts.

People will learn just when will be too late.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Did she explicitly say nothing has been submitted today or did she just say the ball is in Microsoft's court because they are awaiting their new submission?

My impression was that the judge understood that no formal written proposal had been put forward, but that he wanted the CMA to summarise any discussions they've had with Microsoft and why they view those early plans as having a realistic chance of removing the SLC.

They can't do their legal duty if they ae giving him evidence of an informal offer. They need a firm offer that "isn't a hypothetical and grounded in reality" was his requirement.

 

[gametimedecision]

If Sony got starfield timed exclusively and Microsoft never bought Bethesda would they be out of the gaming industry right now? Was that Sonys play to begin with when making that deal? They were already in the lead 2 to 1 so it didn't seem that necessary, maybe they seen blood in the water.

How close do you guys think Xbox was to just being done at one point?

 

[Vox Machina]

A small percentage of people duped into paying a fee for the privilege of a "discount" (which they would have gotten anyway by just waiting for the eventual sale), don't represent the majority. They're not even statistically significant.

The mainstream gamer is surprisingly frugal, and won't shit their hard-earned money down the toilet playing a monthly fee for discounts on games when games come down in pricing anyway and so you can simply wait for free and buy them cheap later on.

Again, these contrived scenarios you guys are citing are just examples of the shitty value proposition GP becomes when you subscribe to the service AND buy games. The majority of subscribers to the service just aren't doing this.

To be fair this discussion is only happening because we got onto a hypothetical situation where you bought DLC or MTX or whatever for a game that was leaving the service. That situation doesn't even apply to first-party games.

 

[Banjo64]

They can't do their legal duty if they ae giving him evidence of an informal offer. They need a firm offer that "isn't a hypothetical and grounded in reality" was his requirement.

But he was also keen to stress that legality didn't mean strictly a watertight, legally binding agreement from what I remember.

e.g a firm offer could be an email from Phil Spencer or Egg saying 'we have found company Y who have agreed to purchase X part of the business and due diligence is ongoing'

As I say, that's just the impression I had listening in as an every day dipshit.

 

[M16]

U.K what is you doing? First xcloud now this

Apple says it will remove services such as FaceTime and iMessage from the UK rather than weaken security if new proposals are made law and acted upon.

Apple slams UK surveillance-bill proposals

The technology giant says it could remove services such as FaceTime from the UK over potential changes

www.bbc.com

 

[Kittehkraken]

 

[Banjo64]

If Sony got starfield timed exclusively and Microsoft never bought Bethesda would they be out of the gaming industry right now? Was that Sonys play to begin with when making that deal? They were already in the lead 2 to 1 so it didn't seem that necessary, maybe they seen blood in the water.

How close do you guys think Xbox was to just being done at one point?

Considering they'd just bought 10 studios in the years prior I'd say less than 0%.

 

[gametimedecision]

They can't do their legal duty if they ae giving him evidence of an informal offer. They need a firm offer that "isn't a hypothetical and grounded in reality" was his requirement.

Let's say he agrees with you and doesn't accept the reasoning is grounded in reality.

What happens next

He quashes the deal? If they have to restart does it still take as long as before?