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[nosoynadie22]

!!FIGHT!!

 

[adamsapple]

I raise you

Please allow me to partake as well.

 

[SlimySnake]

You are wrong. They both have "3D" trees, well a mixture of 2D and 3D trees based of distance from camera. Both have 3D stems, but the leaves are 2D. in Forza they use the classic billboard technique, a bunch of 2D flat textures arranged to give the illusion of depth and 3D but if you look at it from a certain angle the illusion fails you can see all the flat 2D textures. GT7 uses 2D forward facing sprite which always orient themselves to face the camera. If you are driving fast, you won't notice but if you move the camera slowly you notice the sprite orient themselves to the camera. The difference is in GT7 leaves react to lighting while Forza does not.

Forza

Closer look, you can see the flat leaves.

GT7

Which you prefer is up to you but both games use a mixture of 2D and 3D trees.


This is demonstrably false. Like has been shown by the comparison. Some things are better and worse in both games.

Yes, there is clearly room to argue here like above. They both use 2D leaf textures but differently. One is a billboard while the other is self-orienting sprite. One simulates light passing through the leaf while the other does not.

Depends on what you mean.

In replay mode? Yes, you can absolutely say that as GT7 RT in replay mode is more advanced than what you see in FM8 in the replay mode.
In gameplay RT reflection is very limited to car reflecting cars and at a very limited range and yes that is better than GT7 car on car reflection
FM8 also uses screen space reflection and cube map for everything else at 30fps while in GT7 screen space reflection run at 60fps except for cockpit view which runs at 30fps as well as cube map.

It's so easy to say RT better than no RT but how its applied matters.

I honestly don't think you know what you are talking about here. There is no evidence of light bouncing or indirect lighting of track and trees. A bounced light picks up the color of the object it is bouncing from and illuminates the surrounding i've not seen a single material that shows or says that.


I find majority of people arguing in this thread are doing so without any technical understanding of what they are arguing about. There is nothing wrong in preferring one over another but to say one is better with so much certainty yet being entirely wrong like claiming Forza has 3D trees while GT7 doesn't is entirely wrong.

I honestly dont know what we are doing. Forza has 3D trees that move in weather, their tree branches and leaves cast shadows, light filters through them. Thats all properties of a 3d tree even if they are not as detailed as Horizon Forbidden West's trees.

Forza uses Realtime SSGI even on consoles. You can see this on light bounce on tracks and cars. This is apparent in several tracks and gifs posted on tracks. The trees also have light bounce.

This gif clearly shows the track taking on the color of its surroundings.

You can see just how better the indirect lighting is compared to GT7 here where its way too dark in the shadows.

That effect is even more pronounced in cockpit view.

Forza has better weather, rt reflections and RTAO during gameplay, better trackside detail, 3d trees, better GI... we can discuss everything else,..... art style, car modeling, AI, interior materials but lets not obfuscate facts.

 

[Turk1993]

You are wrong. They both have "3D" trees, well a mixture of 2D and 3D trees based of distance from camera. Both have 3D stems, but the leaves are 2D. in Forza they use the classic billboard technique, a bunch of 2D flat textures arranged to give the illusion of depth and 3D but if you look at it from a certain angle the illusion fails you can see all the flat 2D textures. GT7 uses 2D forward facing sprite which always orient themselves to face the camera. If you are driving fast, you won't notice but if you move the camera slowly you notice the sprite orient themselves to the camera. The difference is in GT7 leaves react to lighting while Forza does not.

Forza

Closer look, you can see the flat leaves.

GT7

Which you prefer is up to you but both games use a mixture of 2D and 3D trees.


This is demonstrably false. Like has been shown by the comparison. Some things are better and worse in both games.

Yes, there is clearly room to argue here like above. They both use 2D leaf textures but differently. One is a billboard while the other is self-orienting sprite. One simulates light passing through the leaf while the other does not.

Depends on what you mean.

In replay mode? Yes, you can absolutely say that as GT7 RT in replay mode is more advanced than what you see in FM8 in the replay mode.
In gameplay RT reflection is very limited to car reflecting cars and at a very limited range and yes that is better than GT7 car on car reflection
FM8 also uses screen space reflection and cube map for everything else at 30fps while in GT7 screen space reflection run at 60fps except for cockpit view which runs at 30fps as well as cube map.

It's so easy to say RT better than no RT but how its applied matters.

I honestly don't think you know what you are talking about here. There is no evidence of light bouncing or indirect lighting of track and trees. A bounced light picks up the color of the object it is bouncing from and illuminates the surrounding i've not seen a single material that shows or says that.


I find majority of people arguing in this thread are doing so without any technical understanding of what they are arguing about. There is nothing wrong in preferring one over another but to say one is better with so much certainty yet being entirely wrong like claiming Forza has 3D trees while GT7 doesn't is entirely wrong.

You guys are seriously arguing about the trees in both games? In GT7 90% of the trees are 2d rotating bilboard with some 3d trunks with 2d rotating leafes. In Forza its 90% 3d trees with some flat leafes with some 2d bilboard in the background. Forza's trees react to wind and light from all angles, while GT7 Trunks rotate whole the time and are almost black in some cases when the light is the opposite direction. Forza clearly has the superior trees, but GT7 trees are also very clever for 2d trees that can look good.

Same map, trees next to the road




Also from close up they are not higher quality than the Forza trees and leaves. From distance they look pretty good tho with the right lighting. And keep in mind this map has the best foliage in the game, other maps its alot worse and low res. Look how they look under direct sun light

vs

You will never see stuff like this in GT7, look at how the trees react to wind and how they look

 

[Alexios]

Meh, it's just not as vibrant and cool and shiny as its competitor which looks objectively better because I prefer having more vibrancy, coolness & shine! You can barely see any reflection, rt my ass!
​

Also you have to objectively wish the car models weren't so objectively bad vs the competition or just in general as has been mentioned already.

 

[Turk1993]

Also GT7 in photomode enhances the foliage (even adds foliage), lighting (the samples are higher), shadows, reflections (adds rt reflections on cars and environment), car models, draw distance and ao. Those are probably the best looking 2d trees ever btw, but its not better than Forza's trees (while they are also not perfect and have been downgraded).

 

[Unknown?]

You guys are seriously arguing about the trees in both games? In GT7 90% of the trees are 2d rotating bilboard with some 3d trunks with 2d rotating leafes. In Forza its 90% 3d trees with some flat leafes with some 2d bilboard in the background. Forza's trees react to wind and light from all angles, while GT7 Trunks rotate whole the time and are almost black in some cases when the light is the opposite direction. Forza clearly has the superior trees, but GT7 trees are also very clever for 2d trees that can look good.

Same map, trees next to the road




Also from close up they are not higher quality than the Forza trees and leaves. From distance they look pretty good tho with the right lighting. And keep in mind this map has the best foliage in the game, other maps its alot worse and low res. Look how they look under direct sun light

vs

You will never see stuff like this in GT7, look at how the trees react to wind and how they look

Who cares, they still look bad close up. It's PS3 era trees. You just proved his point.

 

[Three]

This has now become a gif thread

GT7

Driveclub

 

[adamsapple]

 

[Neo_game]

The trees are probably included in GT7's track scanning.

Forza's are just added to make it look good and to give its fans their usual bulletpoint in the discussion.

I've yet to see a race track full of LED billboards at eye level, or trees hanging over the track.

I've not got a problem with either approach really, but one is clearly going for realism the other for a more arcade approach.

GT and Forza are targeting the type of audiences. But if they are adding fake trees or flood lights on real life track then that is pretty dumb decision

 

[skit_data]

But look at these graphics:

 

[adamsapple]

Dr. Turk coming in the thread like

 

[Three]

.

Forza uses Realtime SSGI even on consoles. You can see this on light bounce on tracks and cars. This is apparent in several tracks and gifs posted on tracks. The trees also have light bounce.

This gif clearly shows the track taking on the color of its surroundings.

You can see just how better the indirect lighting is compared to GT7 here where its way too dark in the shadows.

That effect is even more pronounced in cockpit view.

Forza has better weather, rt reflections and RTAO during gameplay, better trackside detail, 3d trees, better GI... we can discuss everything else,..... art style, car modeling, AI, interior materials but lets not obfuscate facts.

Whatever gives you the idea that "brighter" = light bounces? If anything often unrealistic brightness is due to lack of GI

You can see this in the monotone colour of the roof wall in Forza. Where any GI should have made the upper part more dark.

 

[SlimySnake]

You guys are seriously arguing about the trees in both games? In GT7 90% of the trees are 2d rotating bilboard with some 3d trunks with 2d rotating leafes. In Forza its 90% 3d trees with some flat leafes with some 2d bilboard in the background. Forza's trees react to wind and light from all angles, while GT7 Trunks rotate whole the time and are almost black in some cases when the light is the opposite direction. Forza clearly has the superior trees, but GT7 trees are also very clever for 2d trees that can look good.

Same map, trees next to the road




Also from close up they are not higher quality than the Forza trees and leaves. From distance they look pretty good tho with the right lighting. And keep in mind this map has the best foliage in the game, other maps its alot worse and low res. Look how they look under direct sun light

vs

You will never see stuff like this in GT7, look at how the trees react to wind and how they look

Turk, hate to say it but my son just saw your screenshots and asked why are these graphics so bad lmao

 

[Insane Metal]

Considering that Forza trees can look like this, I think It has 2d trees as well

 

[SlimySnake]

That is the best looking forza gif ive seen but something in the GamingTech comparison video doesnt make sense. His RT Off footage captures car reflections too. I thought they were something that regular cube map reflections couldnt capture? could he have mislabeled it?

Right is RT off, Left is RT on.

If RT off reflections look that good i might just turn it off and play with a higher resolution.

 

[Turk1993]

Turk, hate to say it but my son just saw your screenshots and asked why are these graphics so bad lmao

Because those are under direct sun light coming from the back hitting straight on the trees in both games. Its just to show the tree quality without hiding both games flaws in the shadows during gameplay and going as close as possible.

Who cares, they still look bad close up. It's PS3 era trees. You just proved his point.

Show me a PS3 racing game with trees looking like this

SlimySnake those are better examples

 

[SlimySnake]

The infamous laguna seca corkscrew gives us a pretty good look at the trees and trackside detail comparison. GT7's trees stand out as lacking proper shadows and there is just more trackside detail in forza.

GT7 looks amazing in rain replays. I need to gif it.

 

[SlimySnake]

Whatever gives you the idea that "brighter" = light bounces? If anything often unrealistic brightness is due to lack of GI

You can see this in the monotone colour of the roof wall in Forza. Where any GI should have made the upper part more dark.

Yeah, but not in this case because we know Forza has realtime GI.

Where is that comparison from? GT7 PS4 vs GT7 PS5? Does GT7 have realtime GI as well? I know it had realtime time of day but figured it was baked in and not dynamic.

 

[Turk1993]

That is the best looking forza gif ive seen but something in the GamingTech comparison video doesnt make sense. His RT Off footage captures car reflections too. I thought they were something that regular cube map reflections couldnt capture? could he have mislabeled it?

Right is RT off, Left is RT on.

If RT off reflections look that good i might just turn it off and play with a higher resolution.

RT is more noticeable in chase cam and cockpit view. Hoodview has zero RT outside ai cars. In the cockpit it looks nice in cars with lots of reflective materials.
Just check the side mirror reflecting the body and the interior bars the display and the steering wheel. You can even see the display on the carbon roof panel at the very top accurately reflecting. Also notice the steering wheel how its reflecting the driver. GT7 simulates this on some cars with cubemaps which looks also very good. But not as accurate as this because this one is for the whole car inside outside in all views and ai cars.

 

[Three]

That is the best looking forza gif ive seen but something in the GamingTech comparison video doesnt make sense. His RT Off footage captures car reflections too. I thought they were something that regular cube map reflections couldnt capture? could he have mislabeled it?

Right is RT off, Left is RT on.

If RT off reflections look that good i might just turn it off and play with a higher resolution.

Because those are all regular ass SSR (screen space reflections) for the bonnet and road, not RT. RT On only affects the car body in chase cam.

 

[Alexios]

Granted, those track side fallen leaves not having any normal maps, meshes or whatever makes me think of Dreamcast games like 4 Wheel Thunder (mid game but neat 60fps engine with long draw distance not so visible in this bad quality footage but I can't find that track in good quality videos).

 

[Turk1993]

Because those are all regular ass SSR (screen space reflections) for the bonnet and road, not RT. RT On only affects the car body in chase cam.

Interior also, see above.

 

[Turk1993]

SlimySnake I know you loves those gifs

 

[analog_future]

Legit looks like real life at a glance

 

[Three]

Yeah, but not in this case because we know Forza has realtime GI.

Where is that comparison from? GT7 PS4 vs GT7 PS5? Does GT7 have realtime GI as well? I know it had realtime time of day but figured it was baked in and not dynamic.

It's from a technical paper about the global illumination system of GT Sport that you can find here. GT7 has GI that is set for the different times of day that it transitions to. Your idea that GT is dark so the lighting is not GI or that it's inaccurate is simply wrong. The GI is in fact more accurate in that GIF at the moment in GT than Forza and the best way to tell is to look at the white roof wall.

 

[Turk1993]

It's from a technical paper about the global illumination system of GT Sport that you can find here. GT7 has GI that is set for the different times of day that it transitions to. Your idea that GT is dark so the lighting is not GI or that it's inaccurate is simply wrong. The GI is in fact more accurate in that GIF at the moment in GT than Forza and the best way to tell is to look at the white roof wall.

Its actually the reflective white bar in GT7 that sticking out that you see in that gif. They are not the same models in both games, the interiors are also different. Forza's BMW has a matt grey bar vs shiney white bar in GT7. But there is baked in GI in GT7, i agree with you.

 

[Three]

Its actually the reflective white bar in GT7 that sticking out that you see in that gif. They are not the same models in both games, the interiors are also different. Forza's BMW has a matt grey bar vs shiney white bar in GT7. But there is baked in GI in GT7, i agree with you.

I'm referring to the grandstand that has no colour bleeding on a white roof wall and no brightness gradient in crevices. Not the car roof.

 

[skyfinch]

RT is more noticeable in chase cam and cockpit view. Hoodview has zero RT outside ai cars. In the cockpit it looks nice in cars with lots of reflective materials.
Just check the side mirror reflecting the body and the interior bars the display and the steering wheel. You can even see the display on the carbon roof panel at the very top accurately reflecting. Also notice the steering wheel how its reflecting the driver. GT7 simulates this on some cars with cubemaps which looks also very good. But not as accurate as this because this one is for the whole car inside outside in all views and ai cars.

RT reflections look nice here. What car is this? I want to try it out.

 

[Three]

RT reflections look nice here. What car is this? I want to try it out.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

I honestly dont know what we are doing. Forza has 3D trees that move in weather, their tree branches and leaves cast shadows, light filters through them. Thats all properties of a 3d tree even if they are not as detailed as Horizon Forbidden West's trees.

Forza uses Realtime SSGI even on consoles. You can see this on light bounce on tracks and cars. This is apparent in several tracks and gifs posted on tracks. The trees also have light bounce.

This gif clearly shows the track taking on the color of its surroundings.

You can see just how better the indirect lighting is compared to GT7 here where its way too dark in the shadows.

That effect is even more pronounced in cockpit view.

Forza has better weather, rt reflections and RTAO during gameplay, better trackside detail, 3d trees, better GI... we can discuss everything else,..... art style, car modeling, AI, interior materials but lets not obfuscate facts.

I mean...you would think a next-gen only title would easily be better in every single area than a cross gen title that came out a year and half ago like GT7 and it's just not the case.

This topic makes me realize that they both have their strenghts and there's no clear winner. I expected this new Forza to blow GT (a game that's running on a 2013 piece of hardware) out of the water easily and it's just not happening.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

I mean...you would think a next-gen only title would easily be better in every single area than a cross gen title that came out a year and half ago like GT7 and it's just not the case.

This topic makes me realize that they both have their strenghts and there's no clear winner. I expected this new Forza to blow GT (a game that's running on a 2013 piece of hardware) out of the water easily and it's just not happening.

If that was your expectation then you have had your head in the sand this generation. Not to mention Forza is on PC.

 

[ShakenG]

Forza adds trackside details, such as lights, 3D crowds here and there and some other things. It's because the tracks look a bit boring in real life (and GT7 is more "accurate").

Pretty much. Laguna seca does not have those lights around the circuit. Poly has always gone for a more authentic look and it shows.

As for crowds? Both game have tons of them, expecting them to be the same in a game when they arent in the real world is a bit ridiculous.

 

[sendit]

24 pages in. We compared trees, light poles, ray tracing built from the ground up, and the highest quality tiny gifs. But no VR comparison?

GT7 VR:



Forza Motorsport 2023 VR:

 

[adamsapple]

Turk, hate to say it but my son just saw your screenshots and asked why are these graphics so bad lmao

First the wife, now the son.

It's all falling apart over 2D trees SlimySnake

 

[//DEVIL//]

Drive club looks better than both in motion. Especially with rain and lighting.

 

[AutumnLeaves]

Drive club looks better than both in motion. Especially with rain and lighting.

That game is ridiculous. So much content and I still play it today. Best car racing game I've played I'd say.

 

[Turk1993]

The lighting and weather effects at Suzuka in night is just

Can't wait for the RTGI update (if thats also not a lie lol).

 

[Bogroll]

Whatever gives you the idea that "brighter" = light bounces? If anything often unrealistic brightness is due to lack of GI

You can see this in the monotone colour of the roof wall in Forza. Where any GI should have made the upper part more dark.

Never been in a car on a bright day and it's that dark.

 

[Bogroll]

RT is more noticeable in chase cam and cockpit view. Hoodview has zero RT outside ai cars. In the cockpit it looks nice in cars with lots of reflective materials.
Just check the side mirror reflecting the body and the interior bars the display and the steering wheel. You can even see the display on the carbon roof panel at the very top accurately reflecting. Also notice the steering wheel how its reflecting the driver. GT7 simulates this on some cars with cubemaps which looks also very good. But not as accurate as this because this one is for the whole car inside outside in all views and ai cars.

John Linneman needs to get it touch with you for some help with his up coming video.

 

[sinnergy]

Played for about 4 Hours now, had a great time in career, no brightness bug, but I switched in the main menu to 60 RT and visuals RT, maybe the bug only happens when switching to No RT. I did have a sound bug where my soundbar sounded all scrambled. I play with Atmos.

The changing weather from practice to real race is really something!

Their AA is not great on the car interior view, a bit jaggy .

 

[MCplayer]

I honestly dont know what we are doing. Forza has 3D trees that move in weather, their tree branches and leaves cast shadows, light filters through them. Thats all properties of a 3d tree even if they are not as detailed as Horizon Forbidden West's trees.

Forza uses Realtime SSGI even on consoles. You can see this on light bounce on tracks and cars. This is apparent in several tracks and gifs posted on tracks. The trees also have light bounce.

This gif clearly shows the track taking on the color of its surroundings.

You can see just how better the indirect lighting is compared to GT7 here where its way too dark in the shadows.

That effect is even more pronounced in cockpit view.

Forza has better weather, rt reflections and RTAO during gameplay, better trackside detail, 3d trees, better GI... we can discuss everything else,..... art style, car modeling, AI, interior materials but lets not obfuscate facts.

Wtf are you talking about, Forza just has less contrast and higher exposure...

 

[sinnergy]

Wtf are you talking about, Forza just has less contrast and higher exposure...

Forza has a form of real-time GI while driving , yes. But not RTGI. It accounts for more light bounce etc …

 

[Negotiator101]

You have shown yourself time and time again to be one of the worst and least informed posters on this board. Forza is not superior to GT7 they both use a mix of 2D and 3D trees but in different ways to achieve the same illusion of 3D.

Do you know how to read?



I am literally pointing out how each method works and fails when you look closely using those screens.



The screens are to demonstrate how they each fail when you look closely. Coming out a year later does not make one better than the other when they largely rely on the same technologies to achieve their visuals.

This is you.

vs

This is what I literally typed.



Instead of admitting you read that wrong you double down on your wrong assertion.

You set yourself up my friend no one else Forza has significantly better tree's, stop making yourself look silly. Also your first paragraph really made me laugh as you're literally talking about yourself

 

[Heisenberg007]

You have shown yourself time and time again to be one of the worst and least informed posters on this board. Forza is not superior to GT7 they both use a mix of 2D and 3D trees but in different ways to achieve the same illusion of 3D.

Do you know how to read?



I am literally pointing out how each method works and fails when you look closely using those screens.



The screens are to demonstrate how they each fail when you look closely. Coming out a year later does not make one better than the other when they largely rely on the same technologies to achieve their visuals.

This is you.

vs

This is what I literally typed.



Instead of admitting you read that wrong you double down on your wrong assertion.

You'll be gaslighted now that you said "both have 3D trees" even when you did not and have explicitly mentioned multiple times that you did not.

You won't even get a logical response now. The conversation will just be intentionally derailed.

 

[Inviusx]

Weird take, I think I prefer GT7 because they treat the camera like a human eye and not like an actual "camera". Like the rain drops on the screen, it's very artificial and a bit over the top. GT7 doesn't have to splash my screen with rain to tell me it's raining. When I'm walking in raining my eyes don't have dozens of little droplets on them....

Same goes with the overall colour presentation. Forza is nice but it looks like the world as viewed through a camera, like most games, whereas the presentation of GT7 looks closer to what I see with my own eyes.

Maybe hard to explain, GT7 just feels "natural" to look at whereas FM, while technically brilliant, looks like a video game.

 

[Negotiator101]

Weird take, I think I prefer GT7 because they treat the camera like a human eye and not like an actual "camera". Like the rain drops on the screen, it's very artificial and a bit over the top. GT7 doesn't have to splash my screen with rain to tell me it's raining. When I'm walking in raining my eyes don't have dozens of little droplets on them....

Same goes with the overall colour presentation. Forza is nice but it looks like the world as viewed through a camera, like most games, whereas the presentation of GT7 looks closer to what I see with my own eyes.

Maybe hard to explain, GT7 just feels "natural" to look at whereas FM, while technically brilliant, looks like a video game.

Pretty much how I summed it up earlier the artistry Polyphony have perfected for replicating real life is second to none, but on a tech level they are behind T10 and Playground (same engine).

 

[SatansReverence]

The fact that you can't even see the irony in writing that is *chef's kiss*.

 

[ShakenG]

In the end, both games look great overall. Cant go wrong either way..

 

[kikii]

so this turned to cherry picking on FM PC version and comparing it to PS4 game