Support NeoGAF

[Bogroll]

Although this video is about physics, it offers a nice comparison b/w the two games.

He has not got a clue. These Youtubers who drive on tracks in real life doesn't make you a good driver or knowledgeable.

For one those Hondas are known to go a bit twitchy on the back end under/after heavy braking.

In another video he compares a Golf R in FM23 to Golf Gti in GT7, one is 4 wheel drive and the other is Fwd and he thinks they are both Gti's.

 

[Elysium44]

Six years to develop 'cutting edge AI' but now the game has released, Turn 10 are playing dumb and pretending they have no idea about any problems with the AI and want the playerbase to beta test it for them. Unbelievable. All they have to do to see examples of the terrible AI is play their own game. It's doubly insulting because the AI has exhibited the same issues for years, the players have told Turn 10 about it for years, but they never listen and still pretend it's all a mystery. What is wrong with them.

Request for AI behavior examples and Difficulty level

While we’re monitoring the Troubleshooting Hub for bugs around AI behavior we’d also like to get specific feedback from the community to find any patterns. If you’ve experienced inconsistent or unexpected behavior, please provide the following info: Your Difficulty level: (have you noticed if...

forums.forza.net

 

[inwardroom]

The car model in GT7 is insane,but in real game play mode,it doesn't look so good

 

[Aenima]

The car model in GT7 is insane,but in real game play mode,it doesn't look so good

Ingame you dont notice the lower LoD because you cant zoom like in your screenshot. When you use the ingame photomote to zoom in the details the cars look pristine.

 

[Elysium44]

The car model in GT7 is insane,but in real game play mode,it doesn't look so good

One thing I see there is that the letter Z in MAZDA has diagonal gaps like it should on the GT7 model but not in Forza. I never noticed that until now. I just checked and it's the same in Forza Motorsport 5 and 7. In-game or in photo mode. Zooming in on the FM2023 logo you can even see a darker area where the gap should be, like it was supposed to be a transparency but they never got around to fixing it in ten years I guess. Same for the one on the windscreen. Oh the other thing I just noticed, the wiper on FM7 is in the middle where it should be, but in FM2023 it's over to the side.

 

[blue velvet]

The car model in GT7 is insane,but in real game play mode,it doesn't look so good

The thing with GT since GT6 is, PD developed real time adaptive tessellation. The LOD will change dynamically depends on how heavy the render load is, mostly in gameplay to keep the performance stable, on PS3 adaptive tessellation is active both in gameplay and replay. Unfortunately, we can't zoom in cars up close during gameplay/on the fly to test this and if you switch to replay and use the photomode, the game is already using high quality LOD.

Naturally, the LOD will look bad when you take a screenshot and magnify the image. It's a good technique to save up resources since most people usually wouldn't notice it during gameplay.

 

[Turk1993]

Same for the one on the windscreen. Oh the other thing I just noticed, the wiper on FM7 is in the middle where it should be, but in FM2023 it's over to the side.

Its the same in both games, in Forzavista they are both in middle but on track they move to the side. T Three already pointed this out few pages ago and 2 years ago on FM7. And why did you crop your FM (23) Forzavista shot, you could have easily notice this if you just uploaded the full picture just like FM7.

 

[Elysium44]

Its the same in both games, in Forzavista they are both in middle but on track they move to the side. T Three already pointed this out few pages ago and 2 years ago on FM7. And why did you crop your FM (23) Forzavista shot, you could have easily notice this if you just uploaded the full picture just like FM7.

Oh okay. I cropped the FM23 shot because I was just referring to the Z and the rest was irrelevant and to make it larger for people who might not be on a large screen or have perfect eyesight!

 

[Three]

Oh okay. I cropped the FM23 shot because I was just referring to the Z and the rest was irrelevant and to make it larger for people who might not be on a large screen or have perfect eyesight!

The other inaccuracy in the livery text is the absolutely tiny Dunlop text they use next to the headlight. I think they've just reused some tyre texture or something. They've had it as long as I can remember (and it's still floating).

 

[Three]

The thing with GT since GT6 is, PD developed real time adaptive tessellation. The LOD will change dynamically depends on how heavy the render load is, mostly in gameplay to keep the performance stable, on PS3 adaptive tessellation is active both in gameplay and replay. Unfortunately, we can't zoom in cars up close during gameplay/on the fly to test this and if you switch to replay and use the photomode, the game is already using high quality LOD.

Naturally, the LOD will look bad when you take a screenshot and magnify the image. It's a good technique to save up resources since most people usually wouldn't notice it during gameplay.

They only used it on PS3 as far as I know. Neither GT Sport or GT7 have adaptive tessellation. Could be wrong though.

 

[Turk1993]

They only used it on PS3 as far as I know. Neither GT Sport or GT7 have adaptive tessellation. Could be wrong though.

GT7 even uses this during gameplay, i have notice it in my recent comparison thanks to the 360 cam movement. I will post some examples later.

 

[SkyHighTrees]

GT7 even uses this during gameplay, i have notice it in my recent comparison thanks to the 360 cam movement. I will post some examples later.

I've seen this way back in 2022. There's a spot on Willow Springs that you can get the camera really close to the cars, and you see the wheel arches slightly changing...

Thing is, I've seen at least one car where it is disabled.

 

[Three]

GT7 even uses this during gameplay, i have notice it in my recent comparison thanks to the 360 cam movement. I will post some examples later.

I remember somebody posting this years back for GT Sport to see if it's there (on GT Planet I think) and I couldn't spot it



It would be good to get some more obvious examples.

 

[Turk1993]

I've seen this way back in 2022. There's a spot on Willow Springs that you can get the camera really close to the cars, and you see the wheel arches slightly changing...

Thing is, I've seen at least one car where it is disabled.

I remember somebody posting this years back for GT Sport to see if it's there (on GT Planet I think) and I couldn't spot it



It would be good to get some more obvious examples.

The sharp ones are the one that are closer to the camera obv..

 

[Three]

The sharp ones are the one that are closer to the camera obv..

Is that tessellation though? Is that not just higher LOD loaded when you get closer?
The blurriness leads me to believe this is just a quick zoom shot and it loads and renders the higher LOD model as you get closer. Tessellation would also not affect textures. I was hoping to see it change even from the same spot as the mesh adapts to the new camera position like the PS3 GT6 video

 

[Turk1993]

Is that tessellation though? Is that not just higher LOD loaded when you get closer?
The blurriness leads me to believe this is just a quick zoom shot and it loads and renders the higher LOD model as you get closer. Tessellation would also not affect textures. I was hoping to see it change even from the same spot as the mesh adapts to the new camera position like the PS3 GT6 video

My shots are both gameplay, in one shot the camera gets closer near fences and you can see that the edges of the wheels get smoother. If it was lod the other pars of the car would also change. And the texture look sharper because i had to zoom in the far gameplay shot to match the closer one. It doesn't work on all cars or all parts of the cars that its working but you can notice it on some cars.

 

[Three]

My shots are both gameplay, in one shot the camera gets closer near fences and you can see that the edges of the wheels get smoother. If it was lod the other pars of the car would also change. And the texture look sharper because i had to zoom in the far gameplay shot to match the closer one. It doesn't work on all cars or all parts of the cars that its working but you can notice it on some cars.

That's just distance based LOD. It's not really proof of adaptive tessellation.

 

[Turk1993]

That's just distance based LOD. It's not really proof of adaptive tessellation.

I don't have a video of it but when you drive slowly to the edge of the barrier you can see it getting smoother. Its not just a regular lod swap i think. You could be rigth since its not for every car or every part but i still think it adaptive tessellation.

 

[Emet_bp]

The sharp ones are the one that are closer to the camera obv..

Problem with this is that LOD and tesselation are kind of bugged (or/and PD didn't update the in-game model, because there are more cars like that in GT Sport and PS4 version of GT7 - e.g. Porsche 911 Turbo '81) on some cars, e.g. Mazda 787B, Subaru WRX STI '14, Jaguar E-Type '61 and some more.

 

[Turk1993]

Problem with this is that LOD and tesselation are kind of bugged (or/and PD didn't update the in-game model, because there are more cars like that in GT Sport and PS4 version of GT7 - e.g. Porsche 911 Turbo '81) on some cars, e.g. Mazda 787B, Subaru WRX STI '14, Jaguar E-Type '61 and some more.

Thats what bugs me also, even with 1 car on track it still uses the low gameplay lod even on PS5. If they could do it like older Forza games where if you play with only 1 car on track it uses the photomode lod even on Xbox 360 and base Xbox One. On some models its not that bad but some models are ridiculous for a PS5 game. Its not a power issue if you can't do it for 1 car on track. Im not expecting it when there is a full grid, just time trail and other 1 car on track mode should be doable.

 

[sinnergy]

Ingame you dont notice the lower LoD because you cant zoom like in your screenshot. When you use the ingame photomote to zoom in the details the cars look pristine.

Now we need to compare ingame models gt7 and fm23.

 

[sinnergy]

Six years to develop 'cutting edge AI' but now the game has released, Turn 10 are playing dumb and pretending they have no idea about any problems with the AI and want the playerbase to beta test it for them. Unbelievable. All they have to do to see examples of the terrible AI is play their own game. It's doubly insulting because the AI has exhibited the same issues for years, the players have told Turn 10 about it for years, but they never listen and still pretend it's all a mystery. What is wrong with them.

Request for AI behavior examples and Difficulty level

While we’re monitoring the Troubleshooting Hub for bugs around AI behavior we’d also like to get specific feedback from the community to find any patterns. If you’ve experienced inconsistent or unexpected behavior, please provide the following info: Your Difficulty level: (have you noticed if...

forums.forza.net

Sometimes creators life in a bubble , it is great they are asking for specifics, maybe this all gets fixed.

 

[Emet_bp]

Thats what bugs me also, even with 1 car on track it still uses the low gameplay lod even on PS5. If they could do it like older Forza games where if you play with only 1 car on track it uses the photomode lod even on Xbox 360 and base Xbox One. On some models its not that bad but some models are ridiculous for a PS5 game. Its not a power issue if you can't do it for 1 car on track. Im not expecting it when there is a full grid, just time trail and other 1 car on track mode should be doable.

I have just tested it on the PS4 and PS5 versions of the GT7.
PS4 uses only LOD changes with quite low LOD model (let's say LOD2) during gameplay and LOD1 in Photo Mode (and when we pause the game).
PS5 uses LOD1 model with tesselation, which is set more or less agressively, depending on car. LOD1 is used also in Photo Mode, but with tesselation working from longer distance from the camera (but only exterior of the car, interior and parts "inside" the car like engine on some cars are separate models, that are switched to high quality models only in Photo Mode and only for the car that camera was focused on during replay when turning on Photo Mode).
Unfortunately for some cars tesselation works kind of too close to the camera.
Also some cars have broken LOD1 model without tesselation, which is in fact low quality LOD2 model from the PS4 version (thankfully though there are only a couple of cars like that, e.g. Jaguar and Subaru mentioned before).
There are also LOD0 models, which are used only in Garage, Scapes, real-time cut-scenes and other Menus, that sometime have some additional small details or better textures.

 

[Three]

I don't have a video of it but when you drive slowly to the edge of the barrier you can see it getting smoother. Its not just a regular lod swap i think. You could be rigth since its not for every car or every part but i still think it adaptive tessellation.

The fact that the side exhaust still has non-rounded edges on the closer car suggests it at least isn't a 100% adaptively tessellated model, that is unless if you waited longer it would have tessellated that exhaust. A good car to test is the Mercedes Benz AMG Vision Gran Turismo. It has a lot of rounded edges and was a 100% tessellated model on PS3.

It could be that they made the adaptive tessellation more seamless/very quick so it is harder to spot any flaws but I've not seen any obvious videos demonstrating adaptive tessellation on GTS/GT7. It was obvious on PS3/GT6.

 

[Three]

I have just tested it on the PS4 and PS5 versions of the GT7.
PS4 uses only LOD changes with quite low LOD model (let's say LOD2) during gameplay and LOD1 in Photo Mode (and when we pause the game).
PS5 uses LOD1 model with tesselation, which is set more or less agressively, depending on car. LOD1 is used also in Photo Mode, but with tesselation working from longer distance from the camera (but only exterior of the car, interior and parts "inside" the car like engine on some cars are separate models, that are switched to high quality models only in Photo Mode and only for the car that camera was focused on during replay when turning on Photo Mode).
Unfortunately for some cars tesselation works kind of too close to the camera.
Also some cars have broken LOD1 model without tesselation, which is in fact low quality LOD2 model from the PS4 version (thankfully though there are only a couple of cars like that, e.g. Jaguar and Subaru mentioned before).
There are also LOD0 models, which are used only in Garage, Scapes, real-time cut-scenes and other Menus, that sometime have some additional small details or better textures.

The LOD0 cars do they still exhibit this on the engine details? Because I don't think this is possible without adaptive tessellation. The polycount would just be too crazy high.

PS3/GT6

 

[Turk1993]

The fact that the side exhaust still has non-rounded edges on the closer car suggests it at least isn't a 100% adaptively tessellated model, that is unless if you waited longer it would have tessellated that exhaust. A good car to test is the Mercedes Benz AMG Vision Gran Turismo. It has a lot of rounded edges and was a 100% tessellated model on PS3.

It could be that they made the adaptive tessellation more seamless/very quick so it is harder to spot any flaws but I've not seen any obvious videos demonstrating adaptive tessellation on GTS/GT7. It was obvious on PS3/GT6.

I just checked some other cars that are using tessellation in Scapemode and you are right. They don't have tessellation even when im getting very close and i was holding still for 10 sec to be sure.

Just check the wheels

 

[Aenima]

Now we need to compare ingame models gt7 and fm23.

Yes, 48 pages of ingame videos comparing both games side by side is still not enough.

 

[nosoynadie22]

 

[nosoynadie22]

 

[blue velvet]

They only used it on PS3 as far as I know. Neither GT Sport or GT7 have adaptive tessellation. Could be wrong though.

Pretty sure they do. Mind you only the "super premium" cars in GT6 have adaptive tessellation, cars that were ported from GT5 don't have it. I doubt they'd developed something for one game and few select cars just to scrap it in their future projects.

Real time adaptive tessellation is a really cool optimization technique. Pretty much eliminates pop ins while freeing up render load. The main downside of it, you'd have that awful looking hexagonal looking shape during gameplay, it does change dynamically though.

 

[Three]

Pretty sure they do. Mind you only the "super premium" cars in GT6 have adaptive tessellation, cars that were ported from GT5 don't have it. I doubt they'd developed something for one game and few select cars just to scrap it in their future projects.

Real time adaptive tessellation is a really cool optimization technique. Pretty much eliminates pop ins while freeing up render load. The main downside of it, you'd have that awful looking hexagonal looking shape during gameplay, it does change dynamically though.

You're probably right but I've just not seen any telltale signs of adaptive tessellation in GTS/GT7 even with newly modelled cars like the M6 GT3 above.

 

[Emet_bp]

The LOD0 cars do they still exhibit this on the engine details? Because I don't think this is possible without adaptive tessellation. The polycount would just be too crazy high.

LOD0 is like that, but it's only in Scapes, Garage and other menus. In normal Photo Mode (in Replay) LOD1 is less detailed.

Turk1993
That is another strange thing. Factory wheels have low LOD version during gameplay and Photo Mode (they don't change), yet custom wheels have high LOD in gameplay and Photo Mode.

 

[sinnergy]

Yes, 48 pages of ingame videos comparing both games side by side is still not enough.

Yes, we need to know which have the best car models when in game , in race , realtime ! This is the way!

 

[Turk1993]

LOD0 is like that, but it's only in Scapes, Garage and other menus. In normal Photo Mode (in Replay) LOD1 is less detailed.

Turk1993
That is another strange thing. Factory wheels have low LOD version during gameplay and Photo Mode (they don't change), yet custom wheels have high LOD in gameplay and Photo Mode.

Yeah the lod in GT7 is very inconsistent. From all my testings this is how the lod system in GT7 works.

- LOD0 = Scapemode (highest quality car models in GT7 with tessellation for exterior and interior)
- LOD1 = Photomode (second highest quality car model with less details than LOD0 and tessellation disabled for exterior and interior)
- LOD2 = Gameplay (low quality interiors* and slightly less detailed exterior with lower quality engines) *low quality from the outside view obv.
- LOD4 = Ai (lower quality interior and exterior than LOD2)
- LOD5 = Ai distance roughly (even lower than LOD4)

 

[Turk1993]

Yes, we need to know which have the best car models when in game , in race , realtime ! This is the way!

It will be Forza since its using the photomode LOD (if you ignore the bad and buggy model obv.) for the outside view. But for cockpit view i will go with GT7 because most of the time they are slightly more detailed and have more car accurate shaders.

 

[Negotiator101]

It will be Forza since its using the photomode LOD (if you ignore the bad and buggy model obv.) for the outside view. But for cockpit view i will go with GT7 because most of the time they are slightly more detailed and have more car accurate shaders.

Are both games using a similar lighting engine?

 

[Turk1993]

Are both games using a similar lighting engine?

No, they use similar techniques but not the same lighting engine. GT7 lighting has more neutral colors while Forza has a more warm tone. But for lighting they go back and forth, it all changes with tod and weather.

 

[nosoynadie22]

 

[Porticus]

Fucking hell what an embarassment

Generation apart.

 

[GHG]

Ladies and gentlemen, "the most advanced physics simulation" :

 

[Team Andromeda]

Love the Forza the racing is so fun with AI mistakes

 

[Turk1993]

Ladies and gentlemen, "the most advanced physics simulation" :

Since you are loving this guys input and knowledge about physics and simulators, you will also have no problems with his sim tier list where he put FM7 above GT7 right?

Spoiler

Which is bullshit lol, GT7 has far better physics btw

 

[Porticus]

GT 7 has Sophy, Forza has Cortana.

 

[nosoynadie22]

look at minute 6:53 XD

 

[Three]

Since you are loving this guys input and knowledge about physics and simulators, you will also have no problems with his sim tier list where he put FM7 above GT7 right?

Spoiler

Which is bullshit lol, GT7 has far better physics btw

He's put them all on the same tier. He hasn't put it above.

 

[Porticus]

So above that is sideways on the left.

 

[Neo 007]

Microsofts No 1 driving game/studio....

Oh dear!!!!

 

[Turk1993]

He's put them all on the same tier. He hasn't put it above.

Still its bullshit, GT7 has better physics than FM7. Do you think that FM7 should be on the same tire list as GT7? Come on lets be honest, especially when he played it on the wheel which is even worse for FM7 with its shit wheel support.

 

[Three]

Still its bullshit, GT7 has better physics than FM7. Do you think that FM7 should be on the same tire list as GT7? Come on lets be honest, especially when he played it on the wheel which is even worse for FM7 with its shit wheel support.

Fair enough. I was just clarifying that he has rated them the same.

 

[GHG]

Since you are loving this guys input and knowledge about physics and simulators, you will also have no problems with his sim tier list where he put FM7 above GT7 right?

Spoiler

Which is bullshit lol, GT7 has far better physics btw

Personally I don't think either GT7 or FM have "good" physics, it's a toss up between them as they each have fundamental issues if we're talking about realism. But that's a symptom that's typical of games that are aiming to both be accessible and gamepad friendly.

That said, I'm not going around saying either game is "the most advanced physics simulation" on the market, because that couldn't be further from the truth.