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[Ass of Can Whooping]

People still believe this trope?

Elon paid $11b in taxes in 2021 alone.

Lol. You're quoting that number like he pays anywhere near that much every year.

Hint - He doesn't.

 

[Nester99]

He did not pay any income taxes for many years which was your argument.

Was $1 bil based on capital gains tax for Tesla stock sales?

$11b not $1b

Capital gains tax is still tax lol

Or are you about to move the goal past ??

 

[adamsapple]

If it ensures better job safety and protections, good for them.

 

[StereoVsn]

The top 1% pay 40% of income tax dollars.
Despite making ~25% of the income.

Summary of the Latest Federal Income Tax Data, 2023 Update

The latest IRS data shows that the U.S. federal individual income tax continued to be progressive, borne primarily by the highest income earners.

taxfoundation.org

You can guarantee that the ~90th percentile of income earners also pay the vast vast majority of capital gains taxes, property taxes, a disproportionate amount of sales taxes, etc.

You might think that Bezos and Musk "should pay more" for whatever bizarre reason, even though the US government is bringing in 4 trillion dollars a year and still losing 2-3 more, but the truth is that most of the "wealth" money they have is non-liquid; tied up in the fact that they have functioning megacorps that employ millions of of people directly and indirectly.

So remind me what goes out the window?

You were talking about income taxes. I pointed out that mega rich also don’t pay them.

Then you pivoted into further taxation conversation. I could point out that mis rof the wealthy have their income presented as tied down in various business, stocks, and other non liquid taxes on purpose, but we will be here all day arguing about it.

Anyways, I will agree to disagree.

 

[StereoVsn]

$11b not $1b

Capital gains tax is still tax lol

Or are you about to move the goal past ??

Capital gains tax has nothing to do with income taxes which is what you were talking about.

And it’s on Elon that he decided to buy and then crash and burn Twitter.

 

[ProtoByte]

Lol. You're quoting that number like he pays anywhere near that much every year.

Hint - He doesn't.

So what? You pay 11 billion dollars in tax and see how you like it when the next man starts wallet watching. Lol
And if he paid 22 billion in taxes every year, the US government would literally spend all of it in less than 48 hours.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

So what?

Great argument

 

[Nester99]

Lol. You're quoting that number like he pays anywhere near that much every year.

Hint - He doesn't.

I did specifically say the year it hapened

To most honest people that’s a clear indication of a one time event.

Go ahead and hand wave away the largest tax payment in history if it makes you feel better,

Hope this helps!

 

[NickFire]

This is a game studio with management issues going back many years. If employees wanted to unionize there must have been a reason for it.

There’s absolutely a reason. It’s called 6 months of layoffs and closures for underperforming studios.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I did specifically say the year it hapened

To most honest people that’s a clear indication of a one time event.

Go ahead and hand wave away the largest tax payment in history if it makes you feel better,

Hope this helps!

You also said "in that year alone", so yes i'm going to address your misconception there.

The amount of tax he paid in 2021 is disparopationally low compared to the wealth he's accumulated over the years, thanks to your tax laws that enable it.

 

[ProtoByte]

Great argument

Yeah, if you just cut out the remaining 90% of the post. Lmao

You were talking about income taxes. I pointed out that mega rich also don’t pay them.

Then you pivoted into further taxation conversation. , but we will be here all day arguing about it.

Anyways, I will agree to disagree.

I didn't pivot to anything.

You said:

Your argument goes out the door when a ton of ultra rich don’t pay jack shit in taxes. And we are talking Musk and Bezos levels even.

I actually started off by keeping at income tax. Would you argue that the 99th percentile in America doesn't represent anyone from the "ultra rich"? Rhetorical question, people tend to double down on insanity in arguments like this.

Only after I presented hard data on the stats, did I move on to other taxes. The picture doesn't comport to "jack shit", sorry to burst your bubble.

I could point out that mis rof the wealthy have their income presented as tied down in various business, stocks, and other non liquid taxes on purpose

Of course they do. Lmao?

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Yeah, if you just cut out the remaining 90% of the post. Lmao

Your argument basically boiled down to justifying why it's okay the mega wealthy don't pay that much tax, so yeah, thanks for agreeing that they don't pay that much tax lmao

 

[StereoVsn]

Yeah, if you just cut out the remaining 90% of the post. Lmao


I didn't pivot to anything.

You said:

I actually started off by keeping at income tax. Would you argue that the 99th percentile in America doesn't represent anyone from the "ultra rich"? Rhetorical question, people tend to double down on insanity in arguments like this.

Only after I presented hard data on the stats, did I move on to other taxes. The picture doesn't comport to "jack shit", sorry to burst your bubble.


Of course they do. Lmao?

Most very wealthy don’t actually pay much income tax. The income is written off as losses, depreciation and so on using many loopholes in US tax laws.

The really wealthy just keep taking loans against their assets, paying them back through numerous tax provisions and repeating that cycle. There is no “income” to tax as far as US laws go. That’s the point. Your numbers for how taxes are paid don’t really reflect reality of effect of taxation on different income brackets or that assets don’t count as income.

Yea, Elon in this case had to pay out caps gain tax in this one year because of his incredibly dumb decisions around Twitter. That’s not normal for him or any other wealthy person.

 

[ProtoByte]

The amount of tax he paid in 2021 is disparopationally low compared to the wealth he's accumulated over the years, thanks to your tax laws that enable it.

Hey, no one here wrote the tax laws. The same congressmen who've been blowing smoke up voters asses for decades (and a lot of these people have been in congress for decades) did. Because for all their talk about redistribution and "fair share" and the rest, they understand that the utopian idea of what taxes look like means that America's financial hegemony in the world goes poof. And a whole lot of damage comes along with it. Oh, and they don't get invited to the fancy dinners, the high society events, or get your campaign contributions.

You cannot force the people who already have that level of resource to stick around and get screwed out of their laurels, and you cannot create people who are industrious to that level under the context of such a system.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Hey, no one here wrote the tax laws. The same congressmen who've been blowing smoke up voters asses for decades (and a lot of these people have been in congress for decades) did. Because for all their talk about redistribution and "fair share" and the rest, they understand that the utopian idea of what taxes look like means that America's financial hegemony in the world goes poof. And a whole lot of damage comes along with it.

You cannot force the people who already have that level of resource to stick around and get screwed out of their laurels, and you cannot create people who are industrious to that level under the context of such a system.

They understand lobbying. Not what a utopia is

 

[StereoVsn]

Hey, no one here wrote the tax laws. The same congressmen who've been blowing smoke up voters asses for decades (and a lot of these people have been in congress for decades) did. Because for all their talk about redistribution and "fair share" and the rest, they understand that the utopian idea of what taxes look like means that America's financial hegemony in the world goes poof. And a whole lot of damage comes along with it. Oh, and they don't get invited to the fancy dinners, the high society events, or get your campaign contributions.

You cannot force the people who already have that level of resource to stick around and get screwed out of their laurels, and you cannot create people who are industrious to that level under the context of such a system.

You can certainly make the system more fair. I a not talking about the stupidity of some socialists on the left, but more fair then it is right now. And there are ways to structure laws to penalize “running away” with capital to say Singapore.

We just don’t have the political will to do so because our politicians on both sides of the isle generally have been bought.

Hell, all of this would hurt me more due to my income and investments vs the current system, but I would rather have a stronger country vs current precarious situation.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

If it ensures better job safety and protections, good for them.

The only thing that improves job safety is making good games.

The question is whether or not unionizing serves this purpose.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

You can certainly make the system more fair. I a not talking about the stupidity of some socialists on the left, but more fair then it is right now. And there are ways to structure laws to penalize “running away” with capital to say Singapore.

We just don’t have the political will to do so because our politicians on both sides of the isle generally have been bought.

Hell, all of this would hurt me more due to my income and investments vs the current system, but I would rather have a stronger country vs current precarious situation.

There are so many reasonable tax adjustments that can be made that no one wants to talk about. Instead it gets boiled down to herp derp wealth tax

 

[StereoVsn]

There are so many reasonable tax adjustments that can be made that no one wants to talk about. Instead it gets boiled down to herp derp wealth tax

Yep, that’s the unfortunate state of tax reform discussion in US.

Especially now, there are not many centrists left around. It’s either full on MAGA or very much “progressive “ left.

Centrists have been pushed out. That said it’s also happening in Europe. There is nothing exciting in center-left or center-right vs populist tropes.

 

[ProtoByte]

There are so many reasonable tax adjustments that can be made that no one wants to talk about. Instead it gets boiled down to herp derp wealth tax

Okay, I'm interested. What are these ideas? I won't argue.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Yep, that’s the unfortunate state of tax reform discussion in US.

Especially now, there are not many centrists left around. It’s either full on MAGA or very much “progressive “ left.

Centrists have been pushed out. That said it’s also happening in Europe. There is nothing exciting in center-left or center-right vs populist tropes.

Yup. Same in the UK. The discussion gets dominated by activists and idiots, like our green party who just parrot on about 1% wealth taxes or tories who promote capital flight fearmongering

 

[ReyBrujo]

Living in a country with a huge overall union presence (Argentina) it's curious that the IT sector down here is the one which doesn't want to unionize. One of the reasons is that while losing your job in other secotrs might mean not finding another for months or years, the IT sector is still growing and unions are seen as an obstacle to personal growth as they set minimum wages that are on pair to McDonalds employees. I guess once the sector "matures" enough people will want to unionize but for the time being since you can find a new job pretty fast after being fired or quitting it's not seen as a necessity.

As an European its just sad seeing how successful American corporations slander campaign against Unions has been. First thing people do is joke...

Seriously guys. This is great news and shows there are still some backbone in the videogame industry.

Not sure if it's just that, it might be that only the IT sector workers think like that. Then again many of the advantages unions give us down here are related to healthcare and retirement which, as far as I understand, in US is to each its own.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Okay, I'm interested. What are these ideas? I won't argue.

Housing - Increase tax on empty houses
Personal expenditure - If you're going to buy a second yacht, pay more tax
Tackle the buy, borrow die loophole.

"Taxing the rich" isn't going to be solved by a simple wealth tax. We need to look at all aspects of their assets, expenditure and adjust them accordingly

 

[IDKFA]

Maybe eons ago or when the industrial revolution had dusty dangerous factory floors killing employees every two weeks, unionization was important.

Now, it's really just a greed factor how much money they can squeeze out of the company, with zero concern for personal safety and product quality. Name one time ever the union agreed to more compensation/job security in return for more higher quality products. Never.

Unions would get a lot more respect if they were just honest saying they strike for sake of job security because they can t handle a dude halfway around the world can do a better job for half price, instead of bringing up non-issues as fake priorities.

It always comes down to more money and guaranteed jobs, so just say it.

I think it's important now. At least where I am in the UK.

I have noticed that there is a lot of skepticism to unions in the US than there is in the UK. However, I've heard what it's like working in the US.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in general workers in the US get around 10 days paid time off. Don't get paid for separate sick days and there isn't any paid maternity leave. I know this varies between states and companies, but in general.

Maybe if more workers joined a union they could get better rights.

 

[StereoVsn]

Housing - Increase tax on empty houses
Personal expenditure - If you're going to buy a second yacht, pay more tax
Tackle the buy, borrow die loophole.

"Taxing the rich" isn't going to be solved by a simple wealth tax. We need to look at all aspects of their assets, expenditure and adjust them accordingly

IMO, some sort of a wealth tax is needed. I do like progressively increasing g taxes the more residential properties you own though or other assets. And reduce tax breaks on additional investment properties. And especially do that with empty land as billionaires are buying up land in US like no tomorrow.

That said something else is needed beyond that, IMO, but it has to be a balanced act.

Anyways, this is all fantasy in US. Maybe UK can do something though with Labor now.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

IMO, some sort of a wealth tax is needed. I do like progressively increasing g taxes the more residential properties you own though or other assets. And reduce tax breaks on additional investment properties. And especially do that with empty land as billionaires are buying up land in US like no tomorrow.

That said something else is needed beyond that, IMO, but it has to be a balanced act.

Anyways, this is all fantasy in US. Maybe UK can do something though with Labor now.

I'm not inhrently against a wealth tax, it's just something that became a vague buzzword and turns the whole discussion infantile and toxic. If there is to be a wealth tax, whatever that actually looks like, I think it should be on the back of the list. Housing, tax breaks, empty land etc like you said, are things we already have that can easily be adjusted.

 

[Jinzo Prime]

l hold a particular hatred toward people who type shit onto a computer all day and think they need better working conditions; trust me, you don't know how good you have it. You didn't almost die the other day or pass out from dehydration your doing pretty good I'd say.

 

[mitch1971]

Unless my union reps says otherwise.

 

[Mister Wolf]

Microsoft gonna send in some union busters to shatter some windshields and break some legs.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

My personal opinion is that BGS is a joke now, and that they're unionizing indicates that the type of dev who actually wants to do shit isn't there anymore. The result will be inherently worse products. Worse than Starfield.

I am actually curious now how TES will look like in the end. Imagine if it is going look worse than BG3 when it launches

Unions will naturally cater to mediocrity and high end producers will move on to other firms.

I saw it in Dutch bank when I was working there. You literally have levels and salaries negotiated with the unions. So if you are at the level X, you literally can't get more than Y. So it is easier just to leave for another company. The hilarious part is that it is basically the same "contractors are leaving and company is losing knowledge" situation, while the average folks who showed no results were happily sticking at the bank because they were content with their salary and new they cannot find anything else anyway.

 

[Jakk]

As an European its just sad seeing how successful American corporations slander campaign against Unions has been. First thing people do is joke...

Seriously guys. This is great news and shows there are still some backbone in the videogame industry.

Exactly. Some Americans are so brainwashed. You can see a lot of them in this thread.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

l hold a particular hatred toward people who type shit onto a computer all day and think they need better working conditions; trust me, you don't know how good you have it. You didn't almost die the other day or pass out from dehydration your doing pretty good I'd say.

You might want to look at a career change.

 

[Retrofluxed]

I'm very happy for the Bethesda employees. I'm a part of a great union, and we have all sorts of benefits that we wouldn't have without it. I just hope they elect strong union leaders that will steer it correctly.

 

[BlackTron]

We don't know the exact reasons they are unionizing. But isn't working at a studio recently acquired by Microsoft reason enough?

 

[mitch1971]

Why is giving employees some strength in numbers suddenly being seen by GAF negatively? But, when employees get shit on all the time GAF are there to boo the employer.

 

[Jakk]

l hold a particular hatred toward people who type shit onto a computer all day and think they need better working conditions; trust me, you don't know how good you have it. You didn't almost die the other day or pass out from dehydration your doing pretty good I'd say.

Oh right, so as long as there are people who have it worse than I do, I shouldn't care at all about my working conditions.

Are you really that braindead?

 

[Jinzo Prime]

You might want to look at a career change.

My back agrees!

 

[MikeM]

l hold a particular hatred toward people who type shit onto a computer all day and think they need better working conditions; trust me, you don't know how good you have it. You didn't almost die the other day or pass out from dehydration your doing pretty good I'd say.

Demand better working conditions from your employer? Get a union that will fight for you since most employees have zero capacity to organize anything themselves?

What a garbage comment.

 

[th4tguy]

Working at most game studios sucks. Super long work hours. Crappy pay. General “pay your dues” mindset. There is a reason the average career in the game industry is 5 years.
They use young passionate people. Grind them up and spit them out.
You can switch from working at a game studio to working a normal software company and make more while working normal hours.
Unionizing would simply allow for the employees to establish some reasonable pay and boundaries around work environment.

 

[BattleScar]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/25/57percent-of-us-households-paid-no-federal-income-tax-in-2021-study.html

Households paying no income tax by income level U.S. 2022 | Statista

In total, about 59.9 percent of U.S.

www.statista.com

Well over half of American households aren't paying income tax. I promise you, the money is getting "redistributed" well beyond the point of sustenance.

America has a more progressive taxation system beyond the most holy of European grails in Scandinavian countries. This idea that it's the financial badlands is ridiculous.

Unions for white collar, high skilled labor are a joke for a reason.

This doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm saying.

If the company you're working for is making literally tens of billions of dollars every quarter, why shouldn't you as a direct contributor to that profit, get a larger share? Why shouldn't you get together with your fellow employees to grab your corporate overlords by the balls to get more for yourselves?

The company doesn't care about you, so why should you care about the company? At the end of the day the relationship is transactional. They're trying to generate as much money per employee as they can while paying them the absolute least. The employees are trying to maximise what they can get. Capitalism at its finest.

If entire industries can get together and decide what a "competitive wage/salary" is for a job of a specific type, why shouldn't employees unionised to move that in their favour?

Because poor BlackRock, Vanguard , Blackstone and other big institutional investors might not get as much EPS? Boo fucking hoo.

 

[AJUMP23]

I am not American, but this looks like a lot of money.

Considering avg household income in the US is 50k it is very good money. But consistent with their field.

 

[BattleScar]

Considering avg household income in the US is 50k it is very good money. But consistent with their field.

The average American on the average American salary can't afford an average single family home.
Which is why all this anti-union talk is laughable. The entire country has been tricked into believing that unions are a bad thing, all the while the middle class dream of owning a home and raising a family has been snatched out from under their feet.

l hold a particular hatred toward people who type shit onto a computer all day and think they need better working conditions; trust me, you don't know how good you have it. You didn't almost die the other day or pass out from dehydration your doing pretty good I'd say.

So you hate the white collar computer typing employees who demand better working conditions and pay, but their bosses and execs earning tens, if not hundreds of millions is perfectly okay?
Seems a bit silly.

 

[Black_Stride]

Unions will naturally cater to mediocrity and high end producers will move on to other firms. Overall product quality and creativity will suffer

It’s the death kneel for white collar production.

 

[Audiophile]

I remain torn on Unions. Great idea in theory and certainly needed in specific areas and circumstances.

Yet my personal experience with them has been that of a bunch of bought and paid for layabouts whose greatest achievement was getting a microwave for the break room in the latest round of negotiations.

 

[Toons]

I've never been given a convincing argument why I should ever side with the massive corporation over anyone attempting to unionize under it that wasn't highly biased, anecdotal, or just plain misanthropic.

It doesn't surprise me to see several members on gaf are anti union but given these same individuals have called out Microsoft recent incompetences quite thoroughly it is interesting that they now would side with them on this matter.

 

[Toons]

As an European its just sad seeing how successful American corporations slander campaign against Unions has been. First thing people do is joke...

Seriously guys. This is great news and shows there are still some backbone in the videogame industry.

The "free thinkers" always tend to be the first line of defense against a *trillion* dollar corporation

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

who else can create that Bethesda jank? I guess keeping your job by actually being good is out the window.

 

[SlimySnake]

coal miners unionized for better health care and working conditions. Game devs unionize for better coffee on their 45 min breaks in the white noise relaxing chamber.

Nonsense. we have documented abuse of 80 hour work weeks at EA/Rockstar, unjust layoffs after shipping 20 million sellers at sony, sexual harassment at activision and ubisoft, and straight up profit stealing at infinity ward/activision. all of which couldve been avoided had there been a union that stood up for worker rights.

ive worked at a lot of different places over the years and the only place that i felt ever had my back was a union place where i could simply contact my union rep who treated me like i was his son or something and went to bat for me to get my unpaid checks after my asshole manager refused to honor my accrued pto time. it was amazing.

this industry of all industries needs to unionize. every company is more profitable than ever before. and they are laying off people more than ever before.

 

[Gp1]

I believe that the layoffs are more intrinsically linked to the nature of the projects than anything else. So of course, when you have a pandemic holding back projects, along with larger projects failing. It's logical that cuts will come.

Anyway, who would have thought that the Unions would've gone after a left-leaning/high salary industry.

And after seeing how these guys operates i can say that unions only care about unions.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Bethesda Game Studios workers have unionized

The union includes artists, engineers, programmers and designers.

www.theverge.com

My guess is this will just lower quality of their games even further, and ultimately Ms just closes the studio.

The quality was already low without a union.