BG3 or Witcher 3?
- Thread starter Arsic
- Start date
I thought that quest was great at teaching the player that sometimes, like in real life, things will go wrong no matter the intentions. You act on the information you have, and it may be not enough to succeed.
Mozzarella
Member
That is not what better writing means! the fuck?
Starfield fails at both, being a story-driven RPG and at being a reactive dynamic player driven RPG, it fails at both, you rating them on the same level only tells me you have no clue what you are talking about.
Also i don't need to compare characters, we are talking video game context here, I already said i think Witcher 3 has better writing overall but someone can come and easily make an opposing argument in favor of BG3.
Nope this is not how it works.
Oblivion is a game where you can create a character and imagine it in your head, but in game time you don't actually roleplay, lets say you create a thief, will this roleplaying choice influence anything specific in the game? No.
Your thief can join the fighters guild, can equip the heaviest armor and sneak using them, it can gain access to mages guild, cast spells and join the assassin's cult, all in one package, all in the same character. This is anti-thesis to actual roleplaying.
To make things even worse the thief you created is completely irrelevant to the main story and even to the side quests, there is nothing special that unlocks as you choose that class, not a quest, not a non-linear path and not even a dialogue choice for fluff, you get absolutely nothing.
EDIT: Also one thought came to my mind now is KCD which is a game that somehow mimics the TES formula, Henry is a one character, you can't create a class in KCD yet the roleplaying elements feel exactly the same as Oblivion minus all the fantasy stuff, so the argument that you create a character and choose their class is wrong.
So in the end if you create a thief and then roleplay that thief as a warrior, nothing ultimately changes, you get the same exact experience.
So we conclude: Classes don't matter to Roleplaying in Oblivion
Another aspect of Roleplaying is Progression, the character progression is the feel that you are getting stronger and making progress, gaining levels and abilities as you level up, Oblivion does this poorly too, thanks to level scaling you will feel the same as Level 1 vs Level 20, so ultimately leveling and progress and nearly meaningless, with the only thing you gain is a bunch of stat check increases, which also exist in Witcher 3.
I didn't call Oblivion no RPG though, but i think its either CRPGs (or tabletop RPGs) are the only RPGs or its all RPGs (JRPG,ARPG,CRPG) if you are going to claim that Witcher 3 is action/adventure and not a RPG then you have to prove how Oblivion is a RPG.
What you are describing sounds like Immersive-sim game design, you seem to think that having a problem and presenting the player with 3+ solutions = RPG
But this logic is flawed as we can take an example like Dishonored which is not RPG and then all this applies to it as well.
Last edited:
DelireMan7
Member
I see your point but BG3 is a video game adaptation of a tabletop RPG. Any choices you make you'll make you"miss" stuff, being good or bad you'll get you stuff and "lock" you out of others.
I personally don't see it as "missing" stuff but rather consequences of my choices. I really like this approach and wish more game allow players to "miss" stuff because of their choices and in general put more restriction to the players (for example I find personalization in BG3 way too permissive).
I find it a weird thing to say about BG3 or any "true" RPG. RPG is about choice and consequences (and so not seeing the consequences of paths you didn't choose). It's like playing a tabletop RPG and complains you don't see the unfolding of choice you didn't make.
On topic :
I largely prefer BG3.
Witcher 3 is cool but the combat system is meh. Also I got bored at one point by too many sidequest, even if well written. But this was my first open world and I was thinking that I should and can do everything. Now I know this not something I should do (that's why on my first BG3 run I didn't do everything I was seeing and I really appreciate it on subsequent runs.).
I plan on replaying Witcher 3 to have a new look on it.
But for now Baldur's Gate 3 is way superior
vaibhavpisal
Member
Starfield, again, same thing as Oblivion. Its a sandbox experience. Ship building/ outpost building are major part of it.
It does have some quests which have very interesting premise and feel like mini adventures on its own. I think thats enough to match writing in BG3.
Again, same thing applies to BG3 as well. You can ignore writing in that game and still have great time with it. Its not what makes it good.
This is in contrast to Witcher 3. Where writing is everything. If you don't enjoy it, might as well just drop the game.
vaibhavpisal
Member
Say, if you are playing as a evil character. But then, you take some good decisions in the game.
Thats the same thing.
Physiognomonics
Member
I am surprised by the results of the polls. I loved TW3 but I wouldn't replay it because of the gameplay which is lacking.
Makoto-Yuki
Banned
BG3 and it's not even close. I loved The Witcher 3. They are different games so you can't really compare them fairly.
If you don't like turn based combat then you'll like Witcher more. If you want an in depth RPG with loads of choices to make then BG3. Witcher 3 is very light on roleplaying. You can't create a custom character so you're stuck with a pre-made character. Witcher has choices to make but don't feel as important as BG3
If you don't like turn based combat then you'll like Witcher more. If you want an in depth RPG with loads of choices to make then BG3. Witcher 3 is very light on roleplaying. You can't create a custom character so you're stuck with a pre-made character. Witcher has choices to make but don't feel as important as BG3
Last edited:
That's D&D or at least Forgotten Realms in a nutshell. Even for a fantasy game it can be pretty whacky and I do prefer RPGs a tad more grounded.
As I said earlier, when it comes to choices, player agency and character and world interactions, BG3 claims the throne and it's not even close. To anything else most certainly. All in all, however, TW3 gets the crown for me. Disclaimer: doesn't mean it's perfect and doesn't have flaws worth pointing out, as people did in probably thousands of videos, comments and articles.
Last edited:
Mozzarella
Member
What are you even talking about now?
Starfield failed at everything, its not a good sandbox, its not a good story-driven game and its certainly not a good RPG and no it doesn't match BG3 in anything you are out of your mind.
Also your definition of good writing is stupid.
Because in Oblivion none of what you do actually matters, all the roleplaying you do in Oblivion is imaginary.
If you play Evil in Oblivion does it matter? does the story change? there is not even a choice in the story ffs.
You will always be Martin servant and you will always be the hero of Kvatch, imagine you created a thief character who is a scoundrel and makes shady deals, you will still be a warrior and be forced to fight the Daedra to close Oblivion gates just like a Warrior.
If the game reacted to your class and choices and gave alternative means to complete that objective then yeah, that would be neat roleplaying, but it doesn't.
RJMacready73
Simps for Amouranth
both are incredible games tbf with their own unique takes but as someone who has yet to finish Act2 on BG3, im near the end and played through all of W3, for me W3 takes it simple due to its open world exploration, i prefer the direct control of my character and where he goes over the traditional table top of BG3
Denton
Member
I played BG3 from third person while directly controlling my character, playing on gamepad.
I agree that I like TW3 more though. BG3 is strong 9/10, TW3 is 10/10
Imru’ al-Qays
Member
They're bad stylistic choices. The game has bad writing. If you're the kind of person who thanks The Avengers: Endgame is a great work of cinema I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise, though.
Zacfoldor
Member
Witcher 3 gameplay isn't good enough to compete for me.
Witcher 3 is a great game to complete once or maybe twice for the story.
There are more legendary characters in BG3 than Witcher 3, but it is pretty close.
Overall, W3 just falls short with its spammy forgettable combat.
Best way to think about it, I never want to play W3 again, but I'm only getting warmed up in BG3. Also my overall playtime for BG3 is much higher. To me this is an easy win for BG3. BG3 and ER are two of the best games ever, W3 is good but not in league. It's below my top 10. Great game but maybe not a goat.
Witcher 3 is a great game to complete once or maybe twice for the story.
There are more legendary characters in BG3 than Witcher 3, but it is pretty close.
Overall, W3 just falls short with its spammy forgettable combat.
Best way to think about it, I never want to play W3 again, but I'm only getting warmed up in BG3. Also my overall playtime for BG3 is much higher. To me this is an easy win for BG3. BG3 and ER are two of the best games ever, W3 is good but not in league. It's below my top 10. Great game but maybe not a goat.
Last edited:
Zacfoldor
Member
Buddy if you think BG3 had bad/marvel writing I'd hate to see your Veilguard review...or your review for anything else. Larian has a goat writing team and I don't know where this take even comes from....writing is the reason BG3 is as big as it is my guy.
RJMacready73
Simps for Amouranth
I play BG3 on PS5 but with BG3 it feels like im controlling characters on a table top game whereas with Witcher i am Geralt running around within a massive open world if you know what i mean, tbf both are very different games both are extremely well written in comparison to the Purple abomination and both have incredible graphics but for RPGs i want "me" to be in the game which is why for me Skyrim beats both
Mozzarella
Member
Here's where your argument falls apart though. Avengers: Endgame is a movie, Baldur's Gate 3 is a videogame.
Videogame writing is different from a movie.
There is no valid argument as to why lighthearted and whimsical writing is bad for a videogame, not every story has to go full immersion and take itself too seriously, the reason the writing in a game like BG3 is praised is because its dynamic and highly reactive, plus its actually solid and not bad but thats another point.
One clear example is the situation where you are in the Grymfroge and you confront the Gnome girl that threatens you to blow herself up, you can sneak before confronting her and steal that barrel, then when you talk to her you will get a dialogue option to mock her and tell her to go ahead and blow herself, then she will notice that it has been stolen, changing the flow of the interaction entirely, this is good writing, good videogame writing to be specific, this is how a game like BG3 uses video game form and its RPG mechanics to create interactive and engaging dialogue experience, all the choices and fluff roleplaying you get to make makes it good, and if you add the iconic characters who all went mainstream quickly it becomes clear why the game won many best writing awards.
Writing isn't just a plot and lets face it most videogames especially RPGs have generic stories, its not like you are playing through some masterpiece of a story. Hearts of Stone is great, but the main game of Witcher 3 is just as generic, except it more grounded and immersive, if you prefer that, its totally fair, but its just that, a preference.
Your argument would work wonders if Baldur's Gate 3 was a movie game instead, if its a movie game like The Last of Us or Uncharted and it did have bad storytelling and presentation then yeah that would be bad.
I wouldn't say that, BG3 is big because its the perfect adaptation of 5E Dungeons and Dragons tabletop RPG in a videogame form. Thats why its big.
There is some great CRPGs with good writing as well but they are not as big as BG3 mainly because they lack production values and good interactive gameplay.
Larian biggest strengths are their game design team, not their writing team, Divinity Original Sin has generic and mediocre writing, only with BG3 Larian made a big leap in writing quality, and its still not up there with the best in games, but its solid enough to be a strength that pull in many people into the game.
I would say for BG3 the best things are: Ranked
1-Game design: its combat and gameplay in general is top tier for its genre.
2-World design: the map and their encounter design is nearly perfect, its top tier as well, also exploration is rewarding and the whold level and dungeon design has depth.
3-Writing which comes 3rd: but its probably characters that come first, a lot of people love the companions and a lot of them did a good job with performance, then quests, then dialogue and finally the story.
4-Presentation
5-Aesthetics
Marvel writing has become a buzzword, but when someone say that they usually mean it doesn't take itself seriously, like sometimes the characters joke about life or death situations, just like Marvel movies, yeah Larian games have always been like that, they dont take themselves seriously, they always find some jokes, if someone doesn't like that and prefers a serious and more immersion focused experience they should look elsewhere, Larian doesn't give a fuck about immersion and its for the better to them, it fits their design choices more.
Last edited:
AtomicStarving
Member
I really enjoyed TW3 more. World way more immersive. Also, the writing is way better imo, because... books, also, voice acting is freaking incredible.
And the soundtrack
And the soundtrack
Last edited:
PuppetMaster
Member
Witcher 3 by far! I played it through to completion twice.
I like BG3 enough. But don't even like it more than their previous Divinity games.
I like BG3 enough. But don't even like it more than their previous Divinity games.
vaibhavpisal
Member
This is why I find it difficult to discuss overhyped games. Why are you inventing new ways to define good writing?
Name one memorable quest in Baldurs Gate 3. One difficult choice that you had to make. (Except for one that potentially upsets Githyanki empire).
In Starfield, I have regularly heard praise for faction quests, Mantis quest among others. Its main quest is weak, but game isnt devoid of some enjoyable writing. For a sandbox style game, its pretty competent. People remembering quests is always sign of good writing.
HRK69
Gold Member
Give some examples of this extraordinary bad writing
vaibhavpisal
Member
One companion eats magical weapons, cause he has a magical orb inside him.
Another one is ready to blow at any moment cause she has a heat engine inside her.
Its bizarre. And bad.
Guilty_AI
Member
One of the most celebrated fantasy stories of all time revolves all around a magical ring that gives people super powers.
"Its bizarre and bad" too i guess
Mozzarella
Member
Your definition of good writing is when you are interested in the story, characters and lore, that extremely subjective and completely unreliable way to define good writing. So actually YOU are the one who is inventing new ways as everybody knows what good writing means.
Good writing in general is a well structured coherent story with consistent characters and meaningful development that go through phases of change and interact with each other and the world in a plausible way, good writing also tends to have as few as possible plot holes, contrived writing and plot convenience, it shouldn't be rushed or too slow so the pacing must fit what you are working on, and its great if the dialogue is always saying something and moving things forward without become irrelevant and having too much gossip talk. Worldbuilding is another facet that the writer will make if they intend to introduce a new world and by enriching that world they will give it more depth and allow its content to flourish.
This is good writing in general: Books and movies.
But heres the thing, in videogame its different, because the player gets to interact with the game and change everything, this presents a new challenge to the writer, player agency, and that shakes up things, will you give the player agency and in return have your story structure weakened? its plausibility damaged? its pacing cracked? or will you limit them and make it a moviegame/visual-novel instead? choice is yours.
Apparently in video game the writing can take an entire turn and present itself in ways that can be engaging, dynamic and interactive to take advantage of the medium.
By your broken logic, any game can have good writing because anyone can find any game writing to be "interesting"
-Shadowheart quest
-Ascending Astarion or not
This desperate gotcha attempt is honestly weak.
What do you mean you heard? did you play the game or not?
I don't like this business talk, it seems like someone is trying to sell a product but they are making concessions, like yeah i know this RPG is shit at being a RPG and i know that the story is shit and all but you can build ships isn't that cool? yeah there is like 10+ more Sandbox games that are x10 better, why should i play Starfield for shipbuilding? is that why we play Bethesda games for? is that why 25 years in the making Space dream game Starfield was marketed as the next big thing for WRPGs? is that why Phil L (liar) Spencer said the game is more Oblivion than Skyrim?
No bro, Starfield was a failure on all accounts, its gameplay, its story, its RPG depth and mechanics, its exploration, even its sandbox, none of what it tried to do, it did well.
I don't mean that its total shit at everything, but it doesn't have one thing that stands out among other games, it has no reason to be played.
I avoided that game for a long time, then when the DLC was released i went and tried it, i actually didn't finish it, game is bad.
Last edited:
HRK69
Gold Member
Honestly, calling Gale and Karlach's conditions "bad writing" misses the point. Gale's need to consume magic and Karlach's infernal engine aren't just quirks; they're symbols of their struggles. Gale's arc is about the consequences of ambition and the cost of power, while Karlach's is about reclaiming autonomy after being turned into a weapon. These traits give them depth and make you care about them, especially when they affect gameplay (like losing magic items for Gale). It's creative and adds emotional weight, not just filler.
Gale is a guy who wanted too much power, and now he's literally eating magic to survive. Its a constant reminder of his hubris
Karlachs heat engine keeps her isolated from others, unable to fully connect with anyone, even though she desperately wants to. That makes her struggle more real and painful. Helping her isn't just about fixing a "flaw" it's about watching her reclaim herself.
Both of these quirks give you meaningful choices and make their characters feel human, even in a fantasy world. Far from bad writing, it's thoughtful design that makes you care about their journeys.
Last edited:
Mozzarella
Member
For me Gale is just an average character, but what i like about Gale is the amount of lore bits and stories he tells you, its like he is some form on encyclopedia and the voice actor did a good job with him.
I agree with you on Karlach, her entire character is built around struggle and accepting what little joy you find in your life, some people say she is a one note character in the sense that she is good, she is enthusiastic and she wants to fight, but her character developer actually exists in the game, its coming to terms with herself into accepting who she is and her fate.
Last edited:
HRK69
Gold Member
The Nightsong quest
The fate of the tieflings and druids
Astarion and the vampire ascendant path
The Emperor and the Illithid path
The House of Grief and Shadowheart's dcision
The Iron Throne prison
Deal with Raphael the devil
vaibhavpisal
Member
And, your point is?
How many people discuss this stuff?
I see Bloody Baron quest line from Witcher brought up randomly on forum. Same for faction quests from Starfield.
Never seen people talk about Astorian ascension (what was special about it? Seemed straightforward to me).
Anecdotal evidence, I know, but its the best way to gauge writing IMO.
Ah yes, all this stuff was buried there. I could have understood it if I wasn't skipping dialogues due to sheer boredom.
Guilty_AI
Member
That your description is equal times retarded to your argument
speaking of retarded:
"The story is terrible"
"Why?"
"I don't know, i didn't read it"
Last edited:
vaibhavpisal
Member
Yes, ignore everything else in the discussion. Latch onto one point.
Great nuanced discussion.
Edit: I dunno, personal preference and all. But those two things stood out to me and felt very weird.
On top of that constant yapping from them about their condition, i just zoned out after a while.
Last edited:
Mozzarella
Member
I don't know, i never bothered to check out, but yeah its less discussed as The Bloody Baron.
The Bloody Baron is generally considered one of the best questlines in games.
Astarion ascension is a difficult choice to make because on one hand you want him to become a badass Vampire lord with cool superpowers, he will also become a powerful ally in your final fight.
But also you want to redeem Astarion and show him that he could always become kind, forgiving and good, you can fix him and break the cycle.
The game also gives you some tough choices to make during your Dark Urge run.
Difficult choices don't mean that much though, anyone can create a game with difficult choice with not much effort, all you have to do is present a situation where both choices are bad and good at the same time.
Like this is completely irrelevant to what we are discussing here.
Discussing certain quests/stories isn't necessarily a prove of good writing, rather than rely on vague claims and subjective metrics why don't you stick to the traditional definition of good writing? at least thats consistent, even though as i said before videogame writing is different and if you judge it by the merits of traditional writing you will sometimes miss out on important things.
Let me ask you a question now since you did that first.
Can you name 10 games with good writing?
Can you name 10 movies with good writing?
Not much of a book reader myself so i will refrain from asking about that.
Guilty_AI
Member
There's no "everything else", that was literally your entire argument. If you think the "constant yapping" or the "marvel dialogue" is so bad, why don't you show us clips exemplifying this? That worked wonders when criticizing Veilguard.
HRK69
Gold Member
You make a great point about quests like the Bloody Baron in The Witcher 3 having a widespread appeal
They resonate with a wide audience because they present relatable conflicts (abuse, family, personal loyalty) in a way that feels grounded and impactful. But Baldur's Gate 3 has a unique storytelling approach where the emotional punch often depends on how invested you are in specific characters and the choices you've made to shape their arcs.
Imru’ al-Qays
Member
We're literally comparing BG3, a game with bad writing, to Witcher 3, one of the best narratives in the history of the medium. Stop acting like a pathetic insecure fanboy. I like BG3 as a game, I think it's far more fun to play than Witcher 3, but there is no fucking way they're comparable narratively. Like from the very first act: you've got this druid grove where the leader is inexplicably in league with a faction of evil druids called "shadow druids" who want to genocide refugees. Why does she hate refugees so much? (The closest the game gets to an explanation is that she's a snake-aligned druid and snakes are xenophobic or something). How did she wind up falling in with the "shadow druids" in the first place, since all the other druids seem to hate them? How did all of these druids of different races wind up forming a grove together in the first place? Prior to the arrival of the refugees, what were their relations like with the outside world? Who knows. You can convince her to change her entire worldview though if your charisma is high enough.
Compare that to the Bloody Baron quest.
Last edited:
Heaven Angel
Member
Witcher 3
Imru’ al-Qays
Member
vaibhavpisal
Member
Thats a lot of work, especially movies. Best I can do is 3 games from top of my head that I think has good writing.
Planescape Torment (read every bit of dialogue. Engaging)
Disco Elysium (closest writing to a good novel in a video game. Beautiful descriptions of how your character is feeling and everything around them)
Wasteland 3 (plain awesome)
Also as a bonus, Wasteland 3 has great choices and consequences. First major choice has you choosing between a mafia don that is fair, pragmatic and good for society. Vs a corrupt police force. Game has a lot of them where I legit struggled to decide. I thought it had great writing.
vaibhavpisal
Member
I like BG3 and have no interest in ruining it.
I think its writing is ok to boring. Get over it.
Mozzarella
Member
-She hates the refugees because they are bringing up more attention to their Groove, they are undermining their customs and in general its a clash of two different cultures, just the fact that two tribes share one territory will create more division because of competition over resources and rule.
-Shadow Druids infiltrated the groove by offering themselves as allies to deal with the goblin problem.
-Druid is a class not a race and since they share the same lifepath, it makes sense that they will form together
-If you can't convince her to change her pov then the game will become a moviegame and all you do is watch cutscenes and do combat (aka Uncharted) then it stops being a tabletop RPG.
Bloody Baron: Main quest where you (Geralt) ask the Baron about Ciri
-Why can't Gerlat use Axii on the Baron and make him tell him where Ciri is? why does he have to do chores to make Baron spew information about her?
-Why can't you as Geralt have any option to sway Tamara into coming back to her family and trying to fix it? its a RPG but your only choice in that quest is to kill an entire village or to kill a dozen of orphans, why is there no more choices?
-Bloody Baron is a great narrative-driven side quest & main quest arc, but at the same time playing it is one dimensional, all you do in that quest is watch a cutscene and do some combat. Meanwhile there is at least 10 different ways to resolve and solve the Goblin camp dungeon
I don't know man, seems like two different games with two different writing philosophy.
Notice how two games you mentioned are borderline books?
And how is that a lot of work, you just list 10.
Do you realize that Disco Elysium is full of Reddit references and jokes? maybe you stomach that easier since its a game set in a modernized world but it has all things people complain about.
I think its well written, the dialogue is great, but lets not kid ourselves, the political affiliations in that game are pulled straight from the depths of Reddit.
Last edited:
Guilty_AI
Member
only problem i see here is that dragonborns with normal voices sound weird, which was a point of criticism people gave to the game
Imru’ al-Qays
Member
I'm not asking why a group of people might hate refugees, I'm asking why she hates refugees. What motivates this specific character? What life experiences have made her throw in with the shadow druids when nobody else does? The game doesn't even try to flesh this out.
"Druid is a class not a race" is a baby-brained approach to narrative. So all these people from different parts of the world just got together and started a grove? Or was the grove originally elven and they gradually accepted members from other races over the years until it became more multiculti? Don't you think that would be relevant to how they're treating the refugees?
It's certainly possible to have a high-quality narrative in a CRPG: Disco Elysium is a great recent example. It's also possible to have a bad story in an ARPG (Starfield is one example among many). BG3 is simply not a good game from a narrative perspective. TW3 is. It's as simple as that.
Do people talk like that in real life?
Last edited:
Guilty_AI
Member
Sometimes? This is literally some random trader you'll have barely any interactions with, the fact she has any semblance of personality - annoying or not - rather than being just a menu with purchaseable items is impressive on its own.
Last edited:
Imru’ al-Qays
Member
Impressive compared to The Witcher 3, the game we're comparing this one to? A game renowned for the quality of its bit characters and side quest NPCs?
Mozzarella
Member
I told you why.
Who said its from different parts of the world? isn't it obvious that the whole content is diverse therefore diverse Druids exist, thats how they come together.
Its like going to California right now as a Tennis fan, and you will go to a Tennis court, ofcourse you will find Tennis players from different races.
No since the refugees are not Druids, the whole schtick of that groove is that its a place for Druids, its like a place of culture practice and worship.
Its like a place for Muslims, there are Muslims from different races but its still a place shared by and for Muslims, therefore someone else coming and undermining their culture and habits will result in division and clash.
You are not making sense.
And explain why Disco Elysium narrative is great
Disco Elysium barely has any choices, its a full 100% dialogue game and despite that if you play it a second time you are going to get the exact same experience, imagine spending all your budget on dialogue and barely having any branching paths.
Imru’ al-Qays
Member
OK I will ask you the question again, very very simply: why does Kagha specifically hate refugees more than the other druids?
Guilty_AI
Member
If your "bad writing" is nitpicking a few lines of dialogue from a random, unimportant merchant, i can guarantee you'll find similar stuff in The Witcher 3
Imru’ al-Qays
Member
I mean do you want me to link the fucking bear sex scene?
Guilty_AI
Member
You mean the bear scene that went viral because it demonstrated how far player agency in this game could take you?