Bernardougf
Member
This.. all this.
Square Enix said they're aware of Expedition 33 and that they value turn-based RPGs, and plan to continue delivering such games in the future
- Thread starter Thick Thighs Save Lives
- Start date
vodka-bull
Member
Of course they are, they'll most probably try to copy COE33, but they'll fail miserably doing so because they don't know what's the essence of it: not being made by a greedy AAA studio!
Hudo
Member
I'd like to see Yoko Taro's take on the French. The center of the universe is a big fucking baguette sending out cute red heads.
Tiago Rodrigues
Member
That Final Fantasy also has cool stuff like this:
Or gameplay sequences like the Bahamut boss fight.
I know the game had its issues but when it was Final Fantasy, it REALLY was Final Fantasy
AJUMP23
Parody of actual AJUMP23
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
I think with FF7 Rebirth they have the perfect system and that should be the blueprint for mainline FF.
If FF17 mimmicks E33 which is mimmicking/tinkering/enhancing the FF10 and Persona systems its all going to get very samey and sooner or later the market will be wanting something different when you have so many games releasing with similar combat.
For example: E33 follow up, Persona 6, Metaphor 2, FF17, DQ12 and about 10 other JRPGs...... would all have turnbased.
Rather than chase trends (which is why 16 is so hot/cold) they are better off ackowledging that a lot of fans love the FF7 Remake combat and it's the perfect inbetween and holds up as a fresh take to traditional JRPG combat whilst offering something new.
Last edited:
Thabass
Member
Octopath Traveler and Bravely Default and Final Fantasy XIV would like a word.
Also, their games have been good with great production quality, just because you don't like them doesn't mean they're "shit". So, get over yourself.
Big agree, while I found FFXVI's system to be fun, it's not really what I want in the series going forward. I see the Hybrid system like Remake being the future of the series. And honestly, I think it was already done really well, so it will be interesting if they can find a way to evolve it and make it even more fun than it already is now.
You contradict yourself here a bit. Those games were Square's attempt to bring in more mainstream games into their ecosystem and both failed miserably. Forspoken had issues with it being bland and boring with a protagonist that no one wanted to like, and Foamstars was a lesser game than Splatoon. Those aren't the only games that they tried and failed either. I think the only one that they had that were massive successes (before they ruined them) were Deus Ex and Sleeping Dogs, games that were praised initially and then fizzled for one reason or another.
In my opinion, Square needs to return to the roots of their turn-based RPG for FINAL FANTASY. There is one constant that I hear all the time about the series is that people want turn-based combat for the series because that's how they identify that it's a Final Fantasy game. I think it's something that Square should explore. And they can't do it in some spinoff game. they have to do it for Final Fantasy XVII. Nothing else will suffice. Square should see how Clair Obscur has done and incorporate these things in games that have been popularized. Parrying and dodging are the big things right now. FFVII Rebirth is the perfect example of starting to go into this trend and I thought it was done very well. They need to focus this and make it work for a turn-based game just like Clair Obscur, though, I'm sure that Square will want to do something completely different than just doing what others are doing. But, then the cycle continues.
Last edited:
Felessan
Member
Elden ring is 30 mil copies. It took forever for P5 to sell that much and number of rereleases and Metaphor sold less than FF16
Market for action rpg is clearly bigger and SE needs to sell 5+ mil copies at launch to justify AAA budgets of mainline FF. 5+ mil at launch are very very high plank for turn based JRPG, given that Japan mostly abandoned ship and weebs stuff are of limited popularity in the west.
lughnasadh123
Member
"They value the genre of command-based RPGs, and plan to continue delivering such games in the future."
Sooner
Member
While true, they seem fearful to use it for a game with a large AAA budget and reserve it for smaller games like Bravely Default or Octopath Traveler.
Hopefully, Clair Obscur Expedition 33 and Like a Dragon convince them it is feasible for their largest budget franchises still.
Felessan
Member
3 mil in 3 days was underperforming for FF16
Obscur did 3 mil in 33 days
You might expect what will be willingness of SE to allocate AAA budgets for turn-based games on such performance
Recent successes of turn-based doesn't really show anything new. AA turn-based games do have some success, even SE-made ones (octo 1+2 sold 5 mil). Does this success justify AAA budgets - hardly so, even the most acclaimed and hyped are nowhere near required sales target
Last edited:
SamuraiEdge
Member
I see Square giving it a go to try because of how things are going FF sales wise in units. Would be cool to see them go all in one time to see if they still have it.
Buggy Loop
Member
And Elden Ring even for souls was a surprise success. But what do you suggest here, that FF goes toward souls? Not even From software's next Souls game is guaranteed as much success as Elden Ring got.
Atlus doesn't have SE's marketing budget, or anything close to SE's budget of a mainline FF.
Thinking action is the path to huge success is why they keep failing and the franchise going into a downward spiral every iterations. The sales in Japan decline iteration to iteration since FF7.
Directors are dropping likes flies with these projects
Trying to get COD crowd mainstream and changing the entire reason of existence of a franchise's historic core mechanics will do that.
SE in the meantime
Maybe next time will be the right one
Last edited:
KimDongHwan
Member
You all know we are talking high budget turn based RPG (such as FFX) and not Octopath Traveler
Donald mac Ronald
Member
The combat system they made for rebirth is easily their best one of all time. It feels modern, while giving you that ATB feeling and control over your party. Also you can dodge if you want, block or perfect parry. I wish they would make this their stable system rather than change every time.
There's also room for coE33 turn based approach.
There's also room for coE33 turn based approach.
SamuraiEdge
Member
I do want to see the FF7R team keep with the combat system they've made and have it in another title, but do want another team to take a crack going full on turn based. Best of all worlds.
Felessan
Member
It's stupid
Your proposal on unit sales woes is to switch to a solution that selling even less units? No sane people would approve it.
Change FF16 combat to turn-based leaving everything else (equipment, spells, story pacing, early game side quests etc) in place - will game be significantly better? For sure no, core problems of FF16 are not it's combat.
So it's unlikely that it will sold more, but it's likely it would sell less as turn-based combat just boring.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
Honestly I don't think they have the chops anymore. Nomura would have you traveling through time in an outfit with 400 zippers. Go look at the clusterfuck that is FFXV and ask yourself if good turn based combat would save it. Modern Square fuckin stinks. Their AA games are still good but even those don't have great writing IMO. But at least they're fun mechanically like Bravely 2
SamuraiEdge
Member
I don't know; turn-based FF titles of the past did way more than 7-10 million, and recent ones haven't even got to that (bar 15). If they can recapture the magic of another turn-based, high-fidelity experience in good quality and marketing, there is more of a shot there than when looking at how recent ones have done. One attempt if they have a team that wishes to make one of these with a strong idea should go for it.
Felessan
Member
And no one can guarantee that turn-based FF would reach even Atlus or Obscur level of sales. It would be very disappointing to sell 1 mil instead of 3 based on "we could be better than Atlus" (having zero to actually back it up)
Atlus has a name, widely known "blablabla 10mil P5" and actually make a stable quality games that are acclaimed much higher than FF now. And still they can sell only as much.
SE even with budget and marketing will have a trust issue that their game is actually good as there were issues with that in last 3 SP entries, not related to combat system
Series declined with 9 and 10 (turn-based ones) marked by overall shift to realtime, had some rebound at 12 (realtime one) and declined after that as local market shifted away.
And in last 10 years Japan console market simply dead. It's half alive on Nintendo side (though sales considerably dropped too) and the rest is completely dead and went to mobile. Current gen Japan's Final Fantasy is Granblue Fantasy which is based on FF, has a lot of staff from SE/FF teams and earns ~300 mil$ per year.
There are no proven market to justify AAA budgets for turn based game. No turn-based game selling numbers required
Itchy Tickles
Member
I meant that if Square made a game with the budget of Clair Obscure and it sold 3 million they would be happy. It would've sold a lot quicker if it was a Square game with their name brand and ability to advertise and push things. This game had very little in terms of exposure and advertising apart from like 3 gaming events. Plus it was on Gamepass, so sales immediately took a massive hit (I know they get paid for Gamepass, but it still lowers the actual sale numbers overall)
Felessan
Member
4X games and RTS used to sell a lot. Not anymore.
Market has a tendency to change and what worked 30 years ago might be completely uninteresting to current age gamers
One attempt to vaste 200 mil is not something SE can allow itself, they are running on quite tight budgets. Not in danger but certainly no room for splurge on very questionable "maybe" projects
laynelane
Member
Same. I also like the fantasy settings too. Just appreciate the variety in the series overall, keeps it interesting for me. Committing to just one setting type would become very tired, very fast.
SamuraiEdge
Member
Not sure where these rumours come from originally, but I recall how 17 was aimed with sci-fi in mind and 16 being what that project was. This is going years back, and who knows how things happen over there, but I do find the idea of Square tackling space opera cool, and I know Tri Ace isn't around to give me this fix after so many times failing
laynelane
Member
Not sure where these rumours come from originally, but I recall how 17 was aimed with sci-fi in mind and 16 being what that project was. This is going years back, and who knows how things happen over there, but I do find the idea of Square tackling space opera cool, and I know Tri Ace isn't around to give me this fix after so many times failing
It isn't what you meant, but your comment reminded me of ending up in space in FFVIII. It was a short segment that really surprised me back in the day.
People sure love their "sleeping pill" games these days. I'm sure the next DQ will be a success.
This is why despite everything i like FF16, it was almost ballsy (not entirely when the game is so casual and also a slogfest but whatever) in this day and age, to piss off the RPG fans like that and just make some sort of action game for a mainline FF game.
This is why despite everything i like FF16, it was almost ballsy (not entirely when the game is so casual and also a slogfest but whatever) in this day and age, to piss off the RPG fans like that and just make some sort of action game for a mainline FF game.
SamuraiEdge
Member
That was a very sweet moment in that game and know what you mean. Square doing a space opera FF scenario would be something and cool to see. One of the few things they've never tried going full on as of yet.
calico
Member
Larian has disproven this, but yeah it would likely be difficult for anyone else.
Part of Square's dilemma is they have not really specialised and become great at any form of gameplay because they dip their toe in one style of game and then try something different next time. They aren't about to drop an Elden Ring level success game in the action style because they are nowhere near being capable of doing so.
FF has a nominally large fanbase, but FF has acquired it by being so many different things that there is no real consensus among that fanbase on what style of gameplay or setting or vibe the next FF should have, as this thread demonstrates. Whatever they make is only going to appeal to a subset of the FF fanbase.
Sooner
Member
Clair Obscur was an unknown franchise by a new indie studio and went into subscription services on day one.
If it had been named Final Fantasy XVII, it would have sold 3 million off the bat on name alone.
Last edited:
diffusionx
Gold Member
I doubt that Square is unaware that turn based games exist, considering they continue to make and release them. FF16 was just a major misstep. It doesn't even necessarily mean the next one needs to be turn-based but it probably shouldn't be a shitty DMC clone.
GateofD
Member
Making FF16 an actual rpg game would be a step in the right direction.
March Climber
Gold Member
They are going to learn the wrong lesson and simply make their own high budget turn based game boring to play.
Regardless, they are being gaslit by the fans into thinking that turn based gameplay is the cure to everything when it's actually their writing, script doctoring, and game pacing that needs a heavy amount of improvement.
Regardless, they are being gaslit by the fans into thinking that turn based gameplay is the cure to everything when it's actually their writing, script doctoring, and game pacing that needs a heavy amount of improvement.
Someone could mod turn based into FF16 and you'd quickly realize how low it is on the priority list of that game.
Killer8
Member
The turn-based renaissance won't last. We've recently had a few great ones like Persona, nu-Yakuza, Clair Obscur and Baldur's Gate 3, but I suspect novelty factors into their popularity. We were so entrenched in real-time systems that we neglected the playstyle and now what's old is new again. Once others hop on the bandwagon and saturate it, people will get bored of it once again.
I'd prefer it if Square Enix doubled down on the character action gameplay from 16. It was refreshing. They didn't just regress to the older games style but attempted something completely new for the series (and did it very well, listen to authorities on the character action genre who sang a lot of praise about it). Maybe 17 could expand on the RPG elements more and perhaps open up the world more.
If I were SE I would not just do a kneejerk pivot. Maybe for a spin-off to test the waters but that's about it. Fact is they have an extremely solid foundation to build on and the audience did enjoy it:
It's a very vocal minority who disliked 16.
I'd prefer it if Square Enix doubled down on the character action gameplay from 16. It was refreshing. They didn't just regress to the older games style but attempted something completely new for the series (and did it very well, listen to authorities on the character action genre who sang a lot of praise about it). Maybe 17 could expand on the RPG elements more and perhaps open up the world more.
If I were SE I would not just do a kneejerk pivot. Maybe for a spin-off to test the waters but that's about it. Fact is they have an extremely solid foundation to build on and the audience did enjoy it:
It's a very vocal minority who disliked 16.
Felessan
Member
Larian was sitting years on early access money and it still had reasonable budget. And BG3 is not JRPG it's wrpg
The dilemma of SE is that market they used to have greatly shrinked. They try to expand it with various initiatives but they had a limited success
Roughly half of it went to "mobile" and play similar games there (the biggest woe of current SE).
It was bad even before Genshin/HSR/ZZZ and after it became even worse. East does not follow this "gaas hate", it embraced gacha long time ago. And it's a big challenge for SE as Asia was historically very big part of market for jrpg
That sold roughly on par with SE own franchises of BD and Octopath
It doesn't work this way - first it's proven that some game can sell required numbers and than budgets allocated.
Obscur is a runaway succes and it's sold meh by AAA standards meaning that a good but not fantastic game would sell less and name and budget can only even out odds of reaching runaway success numbers.
No sane people bet on runaway success to reach target numbers
Making it even bigger disaster
calico
Member
I replied to what you said, not what you didn't say.
If there's a proven market specifically for WRPG style turn-based but not traditional JRPG three-people-in-a-line turn-based, nobody is stopping them moving in the direction of the former if they want. They have already embraced moving in a WRPG not-turn-based direction.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Bravely Third when?
Felessan
Member
FPS market even more proven - should they move there?
SE has no experience and expertise with wrpg. FF16 is not action wrpg, it's western-stylized action jrpg, it still follows many tropes of jrpg. Moving to proper wrpg would require many adjustments and changes and they for sure will not experiment this on AAA budget, it's just stupid.
Sooner
Member
Wrong.
touchfuzzy
Member
The solution to selling lots of copies of your JRPG is to put it on the platform where all the JRPG fans are (Switch).
Revolutionary
Member
A return to form is not a "kneejerk pivot". Expedition 33's critical and commercial success proves that a high fidelity turn-based JRPG is what Final Fantasy fans have wanted for YEARS. XV and XVI were chasing a different audience and hoping Final Fantasy fans come along for the ride.
Not pictured: people who were so bored that they never finished it and couldn't be bothered to review or rate itFact is they have an extremely solid foundation to build on and the audience did enjoy it:
It's a very vocal minority who disliked 16.
I don't hate the game but the pacing is absolutely horrendous, it's no wonder why so many dislike it and act like it's the worst thing ever.
Felessan
Member
Living in a bubble?
Judge Magister
Member
QTEs are
