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[Mayar]

Oh, I'm more than sure that they know about 33. They probably hate it with all their hearts. All discussions and forums are filled with post - that this is how FF should have been done. The question is different, seeing it is of course good, but doing it is completely different. Yes, of course they will make turn-based AA games and remakes of old games, but I don't think they have the courage to release a new FF in turn-based mode. The current Square Enix and its new management hardly have the balls to make such a decision.

 

[Killer8]

A return to form is not a "kneejerk pivot". Expedition 33's critical and commercial success proves that a high fidelity turn-based JRPG is what Final Fantasy fans have wanted for YEARS. XV and XVI were chasing a different audience and hoping Final Fantasy fans come along for the ride.

I'm so tired of the fellating of Clair Obscur.

It's a good game no doubt but it's also one game. People are suddenly treating it as the blueprint for how everything should be done in gaming, from its turn-based combat to the way it was developed (did we mention how it was made by only 30 people yet?). You can't take what is obviously a lightning in a bottle release and think it's a) indicative of a broader trend or b) replicable by every turn-based game.

Square Enix have continued to make turn-based games for years (Bravely Default, Octopath Traveller). It's not like it's become a completely alien play style for them. These games were well received by players but SE have the sales data showing it's a style that doesn't normally set the world on fire. Even other companies like Sega, who's sales numbers recently leaked, showed their newer releases Persona 3 Reload and Metaphor only did 2 million units each, while Yakuza: Infinite Wealth sold 1.6 million.

If turn-based is the magic bullet, why did none of these games do as well as the mighty Clair Obscur? Or even Pokemon? The answer is that there are obviously many other factors influencing success than just the battle system...

Let's also not forget that the real-time Final Fantasy XV was more commercially successful than any turn-based Final Fantasy game since VII. FF has been a series in sales decline for decades, even while it was a turn-based series (IX saw a sales drop-off of nearly 50% on PS1).

So yes, basing future strategy of mainline FF on the surprise (keyword) success of Clair Obscur, specifically, is kneejerk. And would also be a pivot, both to a style - the appeal of which progressively wore off based on sales data - and from a style, real-time, which actually delivered their first big hit in a long time (XV).

That is why people talk of the identity crisis at Square Enix because it's simply not clear what route will bring the series back to the relevance it once had. Turn-based is not a silver bullet.

 

[KenaiPhoenix]

The sacred cow of Yoshi-P that can never do anything wrong once claimed: "People want instant gratification! Now turn based RPG". He got lucky there was a gap between FF16 and Baldurs Gate 3

I would like a FF game with the FF12 systems in them again.

That would be so fucking amazing. SE really created peak RPG systems and then abandoned it.

 

[IFireflyl]

I'm so tired of the fellating of Clair Obscur.

It's a good game no doubt but it's also one game. People are suddenly treating it as the blueprint for how everything should be done in gaming, from its turn-based combat to the way it was developed (did we mention how it was made by only 30 people yet?). You can't take what is obviously a lightning in a bottle release and think it's a) indicative of a broader trend or b) replicable by every turn-based game.

People are treating Clair Obscur as a blueprint for how Final Fantasy should be done, not every game. Which makes sense as Clair Obscur is closer to Final Fantasy VII through X than any Final Fantasy game released in the last two decades. Square Enix told us that realism and turn-based combat can't go hand-in-hand. Some small development group showed Square Enix that they're idiots. What else are you going to call "lightning in a bottle"? Final Fantasy VII? Final Fantasy VIII? Final Fantasy IX? Final Fantasy X? These games sold extremely well, and they're using the same basic formula that Clair Obscur is using.

Clair Obscur: ~3.3 million
Final Fantasy VII: ~10 million
Final Fantasy VIII: ~8.6 million
Final Fantasy IX: ~5.1 million
Final Fantasy X: ~8.5 million

All of these are sales totals for the original PlayStation 1 releases (PlayStation 2 for Final Fantasy X), and do not include remasters/remakes in their sales figures. Clair Obscur hit ~3.3 million sales in 33 days. Considering it is also available on Game Pass, and it was an obscure (pun intended) development team, that's freaking awesome.

 

[Mexen]

Clarity Obscured: Final Expedition 17

 

[peronmls]

People are treating Clair Obscur as a blueprint for how Final Fantasy should be done, not every game. Which makes sense as Clair Obscur is closer to Final Fantasy VII through X than any Final Fantasy game released in the last two decades. Square Enix told us that realism and turn-based combat can't go hand-in-hand. Some small development group showed Square Enix that they're idiots. What else are you going to call "lightning in a bottle"? Final Fantasy VII? Final Fantasy VIII? Final Fantasy X? These games sold extremely well, and they're using the same basic formula that Clair Obscur is using.

Nobody wants FF like that. Only the obnoxious Clair Obscure fans who won't stfu about it. No real FF player wants another mediocre Final Fantasy turn based game. There are plenty of those in other games and FF does not need to be that same boring formula. Good for them that they moved on from it to do something new. Indie fans want the same boring game mechanics. We get it you suck Clair c***.

Go play your shitty indie titles and keep echoing about it with the fandom on how amazing it is and that you want to give it a reach around in bed.

 

[Danjin44]

I LOVE Clair Obscur but that doesn't mean I want FF turn based combat be like them.

I do want to see turn based combat in mainline FF one day but I want that turn based combat be closer to FFX or Bravely/Octopath than Clair Obscur.

 

[IFireflyl]

Nobody wants FF like that. Only the obnoxious Clair Obscure fans who won't stfu about it.

Am I a Clair Obscur fan "who won't stfu about it"? Nope. I still want turn-based combat ala Clair Obscur.

No real FF player wants another mediocre Final Fantasy turn based game.

What is a "real" Final Fantasy player exactly?

There are plenty of those in other games and FF does not need to be that same boring formula. Good for them that they moved on from it to do something new.

Keeping turn-based combat doesn't mean that gameplay can't evolve. Final Fantasy VII delivered an evolution of turn-based combat in the form of ATB. Clair Obscur delivered an evolution of turn-based combat in the form of adding parry/block/jump mechanics.

Indie fans want the same boring game mechanics. We get it you suck Clair c***.

You're seriously acting like a douchey little cunt because someone has a different opinion than you?

Go play your shitty indie titles and keep echoing about it with the fandom on how amazing it is and that you want to give it a reach around in bed.

Step away from the keyboard and move towards the sunlight. You are absolutely unhinged.

 

[Lokaum D+]

But if it doesn't have fun FF combat why bother.

And FF12 mmo combat style os fun ?

 

[Crayon]

And FF12 mmo combat style os fun ?

Yes it kicks ass!

 

[calico]

The sad reality is that the company which brought us Goetz's trading pass, decided to put 70 hours of Ubislop in Rebirth and managed to fumble recreating the most iconic death scene in all of gaming couldn't make Exp33 or anything like it if they tried. It would require an almost totally different mindset to that which they have demonstrated lately. I say 'almost' because they do at least share a willingness to experiment with core gameplay.

FF is heavily reliant on branding and nostalgia at this point, and I think even that might not be enough to avoid FF7 pt3 from struggling commercially. Not only that, but they have put themselves into a position with the remake trilogy where if they fail to deliver on the radical new mystery box elements they've chosen to introduce to the story (good on them for attempting it, but literally nobody asked for it) they are going to be looking at a Lost / Game of Thrones style backlash which could cause real harm to the franchise going forward.

 

[Fbh]

I'm so tired of the fellating of Clair Obscur.

It's a good game no doubt but it's also one game. People are suddenly treating it as the blueprint for how everything should be done in gaming, from its turn-based combat to the way it was developed (did we mention how it was made by only 30 people yet?). You can't take what is obviously a lightning in a bottle release and think it's a) indicative of a broader trend or b) replicable by every turn-based game.

Square Enix have continued to make turn-based games for years (Bravely Default, Octopath Traveller). It's not like it's become a completely alien play style for them. These games were well received by players but SE have the sales data showing it's a style that doesn't normally set the world on fire. Even other companies like Sega, who's sales numbers recently leaked, showed their newer releases Persona 3 Reload and Metaphor only did 2 million units each, while Yakuza: Infinite Wealth sold 1.6 million.

If turn-based is the magic bullet, why did none of these games do as well as the mighty Clair Obscur? Or even Pokemon? The answer is that there are obviously many other factors influencing success than just the battle system...

Let's also not forget that the real-time Final Fantasy XV was more commercially successful than any turn-based Final Fantasy game since VII. FF has been a series in sales decline for decades, even while it was a turn-based series (IX saw a sales drop-off of nearly 50% on PS1).

So yes, basing future strategy of mainline FF on the surprise (keyword) success of Clair Obscur, specifically, is kneejerk. And would also be a pivot, both to a style - the appeal of which progressively wore off based on sales data - and from a style, real-time, which actually delivered their first big hit in a long time (XV).

That is why people talk of the identity crisis at Square Enix because it's simply not clear what route will bring the series back to the relevance it once had. Turn-based is not a silver bullet.

Clair Obscur might just be my favorite JRPG (or JRPG-type game ) of all time. But I'm honestly tired of seeing the success of it and games like Baldur's Gate 3 and Persona 5 being reduced to "they are good because they are turn based".
All of those games had a wide variety of reason why they are good and connected with a large audience beyond the simple fact that their combat is turn based instead of real time. I've had a lot of friends and acquaintances tell me how much they loved Baldur's Gate 3, and only a small number of them focused on the combat when praising the game.
Similarly, games like FFXV or XVI have a bunch of issues that run much deeper than their combat not being turn based.

It's like when people go "But Persona 5 sold over 10 million units and it's turn based so clearly the audience wants more turn based". And it's like yeah, but it also sold so much because people love the setting and style and music and the story and the social link stuff and picking their waifu to date and the highschool simulator mechanics, etc.
SMTV is almost literally as if you took Persona , took out the highschool and social link stuff and focused the entire experience on the dungeons, the turn based combat and the demon fusing. So naturally it sold 10 million units too...right? Oh wait, no, it's only at 2 million after 4 years including the OG release and Vengeance Rerelease.....it's almost like the turn based combat isn't the main appeal of Persona.

 

[Zacfoldor]

Read this if you want to have an aneurysm.

Final Fantasy 16 Designers Discuss Why The Series Hasn’t Been Turn-Based For A While

They don't rule out a return to turn-based combat one day, though.

www.gameinformer.com

 

[GateofD]

Salty Foraaken

Clair Obscur might just be my favorite JRPG (or JRPG-type game ) of all time. But I'm honestly tired of seeing the success of it and games like Baldur's Gate 3 and Persona 5 being reduced to "they are good because they are turn based".
All of those games had a wide variety of reason why they are good and connected with a large audience beyond the simple fact that their combat is turn based instead of real time. I've had a lot of friends and acquaintances tell me how much they loved Baldur's Gate 3, and only a small number of them focused on the combat when praising the game.
Similarly, games like FFXV or XVI have a bunch of issues that run much deeper than their combat not being turn based.

It's like when people go "But Persona 5 sold over 10 million units and it's turn based so clearly the audience wants more turn based". And it's like yeah, but it also sold so much because people love the setting and style and music and the story and the social link stuff and picking their waifu to date and the highschool simulator mechanics, etc.
SMTV is almost literally as if you took Persona , took out the highschool and social link stuff and focused the entire experience on the dungeons, the turn based combat and the demon fusing. So naturally it sold 10 million units too...right? Oh wait, no, it's only at 2 million after 4 years including the OG release and Vengeance Rerelease.....it's almost like the turn based combat isn't the main appeal of Persona.

The masses seem to focus on the turn based aspect since it's gotten a much more mainstream appeal from people who don't play turn based games liking it enough to play it.

Non turn based fps joe isn't going to pick up P5 or BG3. Too weeb or nerdy for him. E33 just manages to feed the turn based like vegetables hidden in the meatloaf to that crowd.

 

[Larxia]

The problem is that there is turn based... and turn based.
Yes, people did enjoy the combats in Clair Obscur, but that doesn't mean they would enjoy something like FF X or Dragon Quest.

I myself really dislike the "classic" turn based systems such as Dragon Quest, Pokemon, old FF etc. I find that boring, pointless, there's no strategy, no depth, it just always felt like a waste of time to me.
However, I loved it in Midnight Suns, Baldur's Gate 3, and even enjoy it in Persona 5, if we have to stay in the more classic jrpg realm. These games all offer more systems than just spamming the auto attack to win or every now and then throwing a fire spell on an ice enemy.

If Square Enix would interpret the success of something like Clair Obscur, as "people want FF X again", they would be in for a bad surprise. I know a lot of players seem to think that way too, I see it here and on other places, but no, it doesn't work like that, I know many people who enjoyed it in clair obscur but who can't stand the regular turn based games I mentionned.

Turn based can be good, but it has to be modernized, to offer more, and not just be some super passive, easy, no brain thing.

 

[Camreezie]

' Yeah we heard about that product that did our formula better than us'

 

[IFireflyl]

Clair Obscur might just be my favorite JRPG (or JRPG-type game ) of all time. But I'm honestly tired of seeing the success of it and games like Baldur's Gate 3 and Persona 5 being reduced to "they are good because they are turn based".
All of those games had a wide variety of reason why they are good and connected with a large audience beyond the simple fact that their combat is turn based instead of real time. I've had a lot of friends and acquaintances tell me how much they loved Baldur's Gate 3, and only a small number of them focused on the combat when praising the game.
Similarly, games like FFXV or XVI have a bunch of issues that run much deeper than their combat not being turn based.

It's like when people go "But Persona 5 sold over 10 million units and it's turn based so clearly the audience wants more turn based". And it's like yeah, but it also sold so much because people love the setting and style and music and the story and the social link stuff and picking their waifu to date and the highschool simulator mechanics, etc.
SMTV is almost literally as if you took Persona , took out the highschool and social link stuff and focused the entire experience on the dungeons, the turn based combat and the demon fusing. So naturally it sold 10 million units too...right? Oh wait, no, it's only at 2 million after 4 years including the OG release and Vengeance Rerelease.....it's almost like the turn based combat isn't the main appeal of Persona.

Maybe I'm just not seeing the same threads or websites that you're seeing. What I am seeing isn't, "These games are good because they are turn-based." It's, "These games show that turn-based still works." The problem I have with Final Fantasy is that it's not Final Fantasy anymore. They literally said in the interview that Zacfoldor mentioned a few posts back that they:

• think they can't have realistic graphics go hand-in-hand with turn-based combat as that would be "jarring".
• have to sell as many copies as possible, and that means moving away from turn-based combat
• it's easier to go back to turn-based combat if they go back to pixel graphics.

The turn-based combat excuses are removed with the successes of Baldur's Gate 3 and Clair Obscur. I don't think the majority of people are saying, "Everyone should move to this because this is what gamers want." It's, "You are changing the thing that put you on the map, but that's not your problem." Square Enix needs to fix their vision, not change to action-based combat. Their action-based combat games are so boring that I gave up on Chapter 9 of Final Fantasy Rebirth, and after getting the second Eikon with Final Fantasy XVI. For JRPGs, the gameplay and story go hand-in-hand. If the story sucks, you don't want to play the game to experience more suck. If the gameplay sucks, you don't want play the game to experience more of the great story.

If you love real-time combat, great. I prefer turn-based combat, but Square Enix's issue is that they took away the combat I loved, and they keep releasing these morbidly depressing main characters (Lightning, Cloud, Noctis, and Clive) for a story that doesn't excite me. Final Fantasy used to be captivating, but it has been decades since they captivated me. I am looking forward to Final Fantasy Tactics: The Ivalice Chronicles more than any other modern Final Fantasy game.

 

[nordique]

Turn based games has its place. It's not my thing anymore but I have good memories of the older FF games and Pokémon on game boy

Now a days I prefer more action oriented rpgs. The ff7 remake series is right up my alley.

 

[AJUMP23]

And FF12 mmo combat style os fun ?

I enjoyed the gambit system.

 

[Killer8]

People are treating Clair Obscur as a blueprint for how Final Fantasy should be done, not every game. Which makes sense as Clair Obscur is closer to Final Fantasy VII through X than any Final Fantasy game released in the last two decades. Square Enix told us that realism and turn-based combat can't go hand-in-hand. Some small development group showed Square Enix that they're idiots.
What else are you going to call "lightning in a bottle"?

"Lightning in a bottle" means achieving a rare or difficult success. Why do you think the words describing Clair Obscur's success are frequently "runaway", "surprise", "against the odds" or "unexpected"? Because it's a hit despite using a combat system which popularity is known to have declined, and despite coming from a small unknown studio. It's an exception proving the rule ie. that typically these sorts of releases don't succeed.

Final Fantasy VII? Final Fantasy VIII? Final Fantasy X? These games sold extremely well, and they're using the same basic formula that Clair Obscur is using.

Of those games I would only call Final Fantasy VII lightning in a bottle in the context of it being a breakout hit overseas. For many Western players it ended up being their introduction to JRPGs.

The following games, VIII and X, not really. They released in the eye of the storm of the genre's global popularity, and in the case of X was an early showpiece for the new PS2 hardware. Their success was more expected.

Clair Obscur: ~3.3 million
Final Fantasy VII: ~10 million
Final Fantasy VIII: ~8.6 million
Final Fantasy IX: ~5.1 million
Final Fantasy X: ~8.5 million

All of these are sales totals for the original PlayStation 1 releases (PlayStation 2 for Final Fantasy X), and do not include remasters/remakes in their sales figures. Clair Obscur hit ~3.3 million sales in 33 days. Considering it is also available on Game Pass, and it was an obscure (pun intended) development team, that's freaking awesome.

Final Fantasy XV: >10 million

(sold 5 million on launch day, as much as IX on PS1 did total)

The peaks on the graph get gradually lower and lower over time (10 -> 8.5 -> 7) until XV released.

The data is showing exactly what I said my post:

Let's also not forget that the real-time Final Fantasy XV was more commercially successful than any turn-based Final Fantasy game since VII. FF has been a series in sales decline for decades, even while it was a turn-based series (IX saw a sales drop-off of nearly 50% on PS1).

a pivot, both to a style - the appeal of which progressively wore off based on sales data - and from a style, real-time, which actually delivered their first big hit in a long time (XV).

Real-time XV broke the trend and got the series back to the sales numbers FF enjoyed at its peak. It's little wonder why Square Enix felt confident that real-time was the direction the series should continue in to maximize its audience, and therefore decided to fully embrace 16 being a character action game.

 

[Mister Wolf]

And FF12 mmo combat style os fun ?

Hell yeah it is. They can find ways to make it more dynamic like the Xenoblade games.