id Software has Officially Unionized
- Thread starter LectureMaster
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The only reason unions come around is when corporations/politicians go way overboard and start screwing the worker so hard that they don't have any other choice. Like Microsoft has been:
outsourcing jobs overseas
firing local workers while bringing H1-b's
laying off entire gaming divisions
etc.
If you're working for one of their gaming divisions, how long do you have before you're going to get axed or outsourced? Like I'm a software developer and wouldn't want to unionize UNLESS I worked for Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Telsa, etc any of the companies that are doing the outsourcing/visa/layoff thing. If your government is willing to sell you out for corporations to save a buck, then you have to use your only leverage you have. These corporations are all selling workers out just like housing did 25 years ago with illegals and 50 years ago with manufacturing overseas. This time is just tech instead.
outsourcing jobs overseas
firing local workers while bringing H1-b's
laying off entire gaming divisions
etc.
If you're working for one of their gaming divisions, how long do you have before you're going to get axed or outsourced? Like I'm a software developer and wouldn't want to unionize UNLESS I worked for Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Telsa, etc any of the companies that are doing the outsourcing/visa/layoff thing. If your government is willing to sell you out for corporations to save a buck, then you have to use your only leverage you have. These corporations are all selling workers out just like housing did 25 years ago with illegals and 50 years ago with manufacturing overseas. This time is just tech instead.
FalconPunch
Member
It's not even good, forget about perfect.
PaintTinJr
Member
Yeah I suspect in the event the studio was shutdown and the roles made redundant, and a new studio even 3-6 months later sprung up - even in a different country - doing the same job with the IP then employment law was breached because they were semantically giving the same roles to others, rather than making the roles redundant as claimed to the former employees.
It would also make Microsoft's churn process for shareholder profits harder to do to these studios because as a starting point, the redundancy process would need to go through negotiation with the union first IIRC and be transparent - in the EU/UK at least.
StreetsofBeige
Member
So when the game takes forever to make, is a money sink, and get crap reviews and sales, the union rep will protect their jobs as long as possible. Not surprised id unionized after Dark Ages bombed. Got decent reviews, but looks like sales wise was awful. So they're probably all panicking.
Great for people on the fringe, and who dont want to speak up on their own to deal with issues. In fact, union rules are set so even if you got a major beef, you probably cant even talk to the manager or HR directly. The union rep guy handles it for you and now knows what your personal or work issue is too. So much for confidentiality.
In finance roles, I've never heard of it. But googling it, it seems it has happened at banks where some low level jobs like tellers unionized here and there. In US/Canada it's practically non-existent but overseas there is some. But just going on what I've seen in terms of the meatier finance jobs, never seen it. And were paid fine with reasonable hours and workload. Only time you got to work extra hard is when it comes to monthly, quarterly, year end submissions making sure it's all accurate and you hit the deadline. Not that it's a barnburner every time, but sometimes shit hits the fan. There is zero tolerance for missing the deadline.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
FalconPunch
Member
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Walliwallipaloo
Member
Indeed. I'd rather focus on bashing on id Software, anyway.
Then again, what's the point? They've been an empty shell for a long, long time now. They took the stupid faux-MeTaL "Doom Slayer" thing and just ran with it, right off a cliff.
'tis a shame.
MiguelItUp
Member
Oh yeah, there are people that have been extremely verbal about how much it "sucks", "is trash", etc. It definitely did, and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if majority played on Game Pass. I mean, anything less than $70 to play it feels like a no brainer.
I bought the collector's edition as I always would because I love the IP and want to support, though I was nervous about what was I seeing up to that point. It ended up thinking it was alright, which worked for me. But yeah, I would've loved a LOT more content, but I knew it'd be light for me content-wise going in.
Yeah man, that whole part of the game is easily my favorite.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Unions have basically no power to stop a company from doing any of that. They set up collective negotiations between the union and the employer - that's it, really. And at a white collar company that offers good benefits and pay I am not sure how much that is getting the employees. But, on the other end of it - every employer has union and non-union labor. There is nothing stopping Microsoft from opening an office in Bangalore and telling unionized employees to work with them, and then eventually they shut down the unionized office. Can't afford it, blood from a stone. In fact, unions incentivize this behavior.
This isn't like the old days where some employer had their entire operation and all assets and tons of expensive equipment in some giant building staffed by hundreds of thousands of people, and if people in that building didn't work that day the company made no money but the bills for the raw materials are still due next week. In situations like this, the employee collective has a LOT of power. At a modern white collar company with global operations? It just doesn't work.
That's what I have seen out of tech/media/etc. unionization in the past 10-15 years. I've seen it over and over. Unions simply are not built to handle the modern world and the law (by design) won't let them. I would not be surprised to see id get shut down after their next game bombs. Then Microsoft opens up 1d Software to make Doom: Hexen and it is non-unionized.
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LectureMaster
Or is it just one of Adam's balls in my throat?
"Most deluded"
That's because you are simply seeing it via your "wise ass" tunnel vision.
Compensation don't tie to hard work? What a joke. Some applied scientists at big techs earn crazy shits, and they are the most capable people I know.
No, optimizing life don't mean those "minimum input max out" bullcrap values. When I swore and signed to become an engineer, I swore to practice integrity and fair dealing, not to chase profit.
I've lent a hand to a decent number of students to help them secure way better-off engineering positions, from all kinds of hardship; I don't get no shit in compensation, but it makes me feel fulfilled.
We are just having different values. And yours don't have nothing to make the world better.
Topher
Identifies as young
At least a reasonable response, so thanks for that. Fact of the matter is that this does nothing to protect anyone from losing their job. CWA union members at Microsoft lost their jobs this past summer with the other 9000. These folks are unionizing for remote work which Microsoft can just as easily take away so what purpose does the union provide?
I don't see a union helping with any of the rest either really.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Just look at whats happened to income equality in the last 20-30 years as unions disappeared or were never allowed to take hold in the tech sector. Everyone hates the boomers but the unions were the ones that ensured blue collar boomers got a living wage and were able to afford homes, cars, and fat 401Ks. Then came the tech sector, no unions, and now millenials and gen z are struggling to buy homes, or if they have homes living paycheck to paycheck despite being far more educated than their boomer parents. The unions are not there to ensure the workers are paid what they are worth. CEOs get paid an insane amount of salary in comparison to the average worker nowadays. Something the unions wouldve never allowed.
99% of the problems millenials and gen z are facing today wouldve been solved if their jobs had unions. I mean these gen z bastards arent even getting laid because all the women their age are fucking older millenials and gen x dudes in the late 40s and 50s because they are more financially secure. literally a generation of virgins because they were told to go to college and work at corporations who now invest billions in India, hire H1bs after laying off americans by the tens of thousands, pay trillions to their CEOs, and underpaying the shit out of their workers.
Like literally everything, unions have drawbacks. You have people who are awful at their job who cant be fired. You have threats of worker strikes. Baseball has unions for both players and umpires and some of the most god awful umpires were never fired. Players are about to go on a strike next year when they ask for more perks which means we might miss an entire season of baseball. Personally, my only experience with unions was very good. I had a rep check on me every month. Way better than HR which is basically for the company, not for the employee. i inititally hated giving an hour of my paycheck every week to the union, but i got it all back and then some when i quit the job and my managers refused to pay me the vacation backpay i had accrued. one call to the union rep, and the manager sent me the checks with an apology.
Microsoft just invested $17 billion in india earlier this week to be spent over the course of 4 years cultivating indian talent. After shutting down several gaming studios, and laying off around 40k employees in the last two years. None of those guys were unionized. So they were discarded like an aborted fetus. They made $120 billion in profits last year. Profits, not revenue. Their market cap is now $3 trillion. TRILLION. Meanwhile kids graduating with engineering and computer science degrees are not hired being forced to work at chipotle for $12 an hour while satya and phil spencer party on $500 million yachts snorting cocaine out of gen z girls asses who are also forced to whore themselves out because there are even fewer jobs for the majors they graduated in.
The Cockatrice
I'm retarded?
id needs to move away from Microsoft if they want to remain creative and competitive. The Dark Ages should be the sign that under MS they're going to end up getting sacked.
StreetsofBeige
Member
I dont think unions can even protect you from a job loss. As you said union members get fired all the time. It's not like they are on the payroll forever.
But I'll assume (maybe it's true, maybe it's not), that with a union deal if you get fired you get way more severance pay than usual to get rid of them.
Who knows what the typical union severance pay even is. Typically government regulations are skimpy if a company purely tries to get by with a shitty offer. In my industry, the typical pay out everyone gets if they are canned is 1 month per year of service. And that's not even negotiating for more like asking for more money, current year prorated bonus, sales guys asking for car subsidy or option to buy out the fleet car for cheap, etc.... As long as youre a good person and willing to act chill the companies will work with you and offer more (since they always hold back some, just like on salary when offering a job).
When I got laid off 20 years ago, I got 3 months sev pay for 3 years of service. Plus if I stuck around for a few extra months to smooth things out, they paid me an extra $3,000 or $4,000 on top of it (or I could had just leave right away). And I could go for interviews at any time no questions asked. And I scored a new job a month after I left the company. Wasnt a big deal at all. That's how I got a job fast. I got some interviews and told my boss and he said no problem just go. That was a low level job so cant expect the world. And I'm not a sales guy so things like car allowance, big bonuses and wanting to keep the company cell phone didnt apply.
You hear about weird shit like people getting fired and a company guard watches you pack up your things and escorts you out the door. Myself and anyone else whose gotten fired, I've never seen that. If it's an immediate firing, they get called into an office, offered a letter they are fired, and they hand back their company gear and leave on your own. Then hand back any corporate gear still at home the next day. In fact, companies I worked at anyone with a company phone doesnt even have to hand it back that moment due to liability issues. Bring it back another day. The reasoning is if someone is fired, they hand back their phone, and they get into an accident or crisis situation with no phone anymore, HR thinks they can be liable for any safety issues.
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MiguelItUp
Member
Man, I'd love to see them break away and save themselves. They're one of the few studios left that I've loved since a kid, so I'd love for them to thrive and succeed. It's really hard to see success in anything connected to Microsoft at the moment.
Topher
Identifies as young
I've seen a couple of guys get escorted out the door, but they were pretty extreme cases. One was apparently unable to take a lunch break without getting high. The other decided to use company resources for lan parties on weekends. Basically if a employee is getting fired and they are not trustworthy, make sure they leave without further incident is my understanding of why that happens.
MagusMajul
Member
All unions do is inflate costs that are brought down to the consumer and force the government to print more money. Texas has best union busting in the USA it's a shame ID didn't just fire the grand standers. I would sooner shut down my personal business than unionize and everyone who works for me understands this.
Topher
Identifies as young
This is why I just don't like these acquisitions. Feel like they just sell the soul of the company and it is never the same again. Id, Bioware, Blizzard and on. Seen this tale repeated too many times.
MagusMajul
Member
Good for who the consumer has to flip the cost? If your brother was so good he could start his own business like I did and see how fair the world truly is.
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MiguelItUp
Member
Yeah, no kidding, a tale as old as time at this point. What really sucks are the situations where they're acting like everything is fine for people outside of the walls to see. Meanwhile, inside their walls they're extremely unhappy about everything. The acquisitions are never a good one, unless it's a situation where a studio is closing/or on the verge and purchased/saved and given another chance. But there aren't enough examples of that.
Topher
Identifies as young
This, I agree with. Particularly in fields that can be dangerous. In fact, worker conditions are the first thing that comes to mind when I think about the necessity of unions.
darrylgorn
Member
With the way the US economy is going, this was inevitable.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
What the hell is this post lmao. He is making bank and has full benefits for his whole family. What's the issue? You think he should be paid less?
StreetsofBeige
Member
My sis in law is a home nurse. Been doing it since graduating. Unionized. I think it's one of those kinds of jobs where if you want to be one you have to be union member. Not sure, but there's a bunch of different nursing associations and you got to be a member if you join one.
Gets paid over $100k, bankable paid out sick days that can stock up (I think the gov tried to change that, but not sure what the fall out was when she brought it up), her pension will be about $50k when she retires, and the last time she had an annual performance review or any kind of manager discussion about goals and quality of work was 20 years ago. She wasnt even sure when. She had to think of it. Her daily hours are normal and the biggest issue she ever complained about was covid time when she was aksed to man the telephone to answer questions as I guess the city set up hotlines about it.
If anyone wants a healthcare job that is good pay, good pension, low stress, and sick days that accumulate and get paid out even if you dont use them (unless they changed it), and seemingly zero interaction with managers about your job then become a nurse in Ontario.
Oh, and best part. She says that when it comes to firings it based on seniority. So if there's cut, the younger people go first. Since she's a 30 year clubber she told us she's basically impossible to fire. lol
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V2Tommy
Member
There are two sides to everything. If he ran a business and had to deal with these extra union expenses and overhead, unions would not benefit him. Not everyone is just an employee in the world, some people are employers.
phant0m
Member
Still enjoyed it more than Eternal.
MagusMajul
Member
high wages= higher the money printing which creates inflation. This also creates higher price for goods and services. min wage and unions fuck the economy hard
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JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Irrelevancy? id is one of the few Microsoft studios that has produced a truly great game.
BattleScar
Member
Wow, looks like everyone on GAF are regular John D. Rockefellers.
Its very funny.
Its very funny.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Topher
Identifies as young
Mortisfacio
Member
I enjoyed the latest Doom, but 2016 was better. Eternal was worse than 2016, but still good. This latest release was good, but worse than the prior two. In my opinion, they're on a slow decline and have been for almost a decade. I see no signs of that turning around. Doesn't mean it can't happen, just there's nothing to me that says it will. From figures available Doom the Dark Ages had about half the amount of players of Doom Eternal (3~ mil vs 6.4 mil)
LordOcidax
Member
RIP
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
Yeah the guy welding I beams at 6 AM outdoors in December should get paid less so that employers can make more money.
This line of thinking is how we wound up with a bunch of illegal immigrants posting up outside home depot every morning and doing shitty jobs for less money, that they in turn send directly out of our economy to their home country.
Should iD software have a union? I don't see the point. Should welders, electricians, butchers, plumbers, etc? Yes it has served them well from what Ive seen.
No, it's our own Government not enforcing borders and laws to help drive down wages for corporations while simultaneously importing millions on visas to hold down white collar salaries that has screwed us. 99% of our issues can be linked to those two things. Housing too high? Reports have said 60% of the housing inflation the last 5 years was caused by immigration (I think it's probably higher than that). Wages being suppressed in construction, tech, medical, etc? Immigration. Welfare, food stamps, etc being overran? Immigration. Colleges turned into businesses favoring foreign students over US, who then take our jobs? Immigration. Large amounts of traffic overwhelming the city infrastructure? Immigration.
19 states just sued over the 100k H1-b stipend that was added. 19 states that are favoring foreign workers over US. NINETEEN.
It's embarrassing, and why I think you're going to see more and more unions, and people get more and more upset at BOTH parties.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
Agreed but this has been a thing for years. Blue collar union guys are not what is killing the economy.
Kacho
Gold Member
I'm as anti-union as the come but I do support blue collar workers unionizing. They are the ones working in tough conditions and likely to be mistreated or taken advantage of.
A bunch of donks making video games not so much. "b-b-but my WFH rights as a human beeeeeeing
"
FalconPunch
Member
It doesn't at all. It is well known that the greatest predictor to financial success is your proximity to it. That hard work spiel is complete rubbish. The biggest pay increases I've ever received in life have been through connections and knowing the right people. If you want to run on a treadmill earning as much money for others, sure keep "working hard"."Most deluded"
That's because you are simply seeing it via your "wise ass" tunnel vision.
Compensation don't tie to hard work? What a joke. Some applied scientists at big techs earn crazy shits, and they are the most capable people I know.
Nobody cares about your morals. This discussion was initially centred around people wanting a better outcome for themselves and then choosing to form a union. It then delved into union bashing and union praising which led to different tangential threads about entitlement/ financial entitlement. If you want to work for integrity and not chase profits, good for you. That does not lead to the best or even always good financial outcomes. There are lots of people working hard at Walmart, doing Uber or DoorDash, etc. Working "hard" is only useful when you're rewarded based on merit. When you show me a society that's a meritocracy, i'll be quick to agree with your line of thinking.
Congratulations, do you want an award? Lots of people do that all the time. I worked on a project to build bathrooms for kids in schools in underdeveloped countries and lots of other similar projects. Whats your point? Are we to circle jerk around our so called "good works" to see who sits on the moral high ground? Like i said, nobody cares about your morals. If you want to preach about your good works, do it to someone who cares.
The problem people don't realize outside the engineering industry is that unlike most jobs, it's very location centered and may be the only job in that area, much like a factory. So if you get laid off in your engineering job in Arkansas, there may not be a single other place in the state that would hire you. It's a lot like working at a factory that closes, there are no other options in that situation either usually.I'm as anti-union as the come but I do support blue collar workers unionizing. They are the ones working in tough conditions and likely to be mistreated or taken advantage of.
A bunch of donks making video games not so much. "b-b-but my WFH rights as a human beeeeeeing
Companies in software/engineering have been using that as leverage for the past 30 years, "Hey you have no other options locally, guess we can just pay you really low." So you either have to move out of state or continue to be underpaid. The pandemic helped that with WFH options that didn't exist before but most companies have retracted those. So if Microsoft lays off an office in an area that doesn't have other programming jobs, those people may be screwed.
MiguelItUp
Member
I mean, people can be taken advantage of in any industry unfortunately, so that's not really saying much. In most cases, the only thing that's different is the amount of "being able to put up with it" from the employees. But putting up with it more doesn't make you "harder", and not putting up with it doesn't make you "softer". Is there just a running gag that everyone just assumes this is strictly related to WFH? Did I miss something? Genuine question, lol.
Unions exist across various industries for a reason, it really shouldn't matter if it's blue collar, white collar, etc. I get people have their opinions about who "works harder and is more deserving", but that's neither here nor there. Much like I said before, we don't know why they wanted to do it in the first place, but they felt it was necessary for a reason. A reason we likely will never know. But I think it's kind of ridiculous to be on the outside yelling about how absurd it is when we have no idea what's going on there anyway, lol. All we can do is assume, which really is kind of pointless. Makes more sense to just hope for the best for them, at least that's what I'll be doing, lol.
Unions exist across various industries for a reason, it really shouldn't matter if it's blue collar, white collar, etc. I get people have their opinions about who "works harder and is more deserving", but that's neither here nor there. Much like I said before, we don't know why they wanted to do it in the first place, but they felt it was necessary for a reason. A reason we likely will never know. But I think it's kind of ridiculous to be on the outside yelling about how absurd it is when we have no idea what's going on there anyway, lol. All we can do is assume, which really is kind of pointless. Makes more sense to just hope for the best for them, at least that's what I'll be doing, lol.
FalconPunch
Member
Its not may be screwed, its will be screwed. There are lots of small towns like this in the US that have had the rug pulled out from underneath their feet. I mean all of west virginia, even parts if detroit to a certain extent and other cities as well.