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Decima appreciation thread

nowhat

Member
I recently started replaying HZD, and even though the game is almost three years old by now, I'm still blown away by how gorgeous the game can look. Sure, some of the minor NPCs can have iffy facial models and animations, but it's not like the engine is incapable of creating good looking human characters (see: Death Stranding), just that clearly it wasn't the focus in HZD (and most of the minor NPC conversations are 100% automated, hence the robotic feel). But I'd argue when it comes to the environments (outside water rendering, that DS absolutely nails), HZD looks better. Sure, it's technologically impressive that DS can have seemingly infinite amount of tiny pebbles on the ground extending as far as you can see, and that the world is so barren surely is an artistic decision. But it doesn't quite compare to the lush (and varied) environments in HZD, the world feels so much more alive (which it of course is, when comparing the game worlds).

So how does Guerrilla pull it off? What makes Decima tick? While we may never know all of the details, thanks to GDC talks we do know quite a bit. At the heart of Decima is the GPU-based procedural placement system:



The word "procedural" has a bad rap, but undeservedly so, procedural generation can be very useful. Here, it means that not only things like vegetation are placed procedurally (and in real-time), but also things like wildlife and even ambient sounds, and all of this is done with negligible GPU overhead. The videos of how this works are really fascinating. Two key takeaways from the talk: first, "locally stable", in this context, means the procedural generation creates the same results for any given place. It's random, but it's "the same random" for all (this is of course a requirement, because it must work with manually placed assets too). And while I'm not 100% certain Death Stranding uses that dynamic road-placing functionality (so that paths are generated in the world if enough people walk through same places), it's kinda obvious it does, innit?

But just placing vegetation somewhere isn't enough, the vegetation must also act convincingly:



The speaker in that video is clearly uncomfortable in his position, but I'd still recommend watching it. Interesting tidbits in the QA session too. The team wanted all of the vegetation to react to humans/machines, but this was not possible given hardware constraints/general rendering budget, so this is why the vegetation mostly reacts only to wind. The talk also references the weather system a bit (that creates the wind) - basically, each location and its elevation allows for only certain types of clouds to form, which in turn creates different weather conditions. It's a rough approximation of course (real weather simulations are in the realm of supercomputers), but it's impressive tech nevertheless.

Having a great-looking engine in itself isn't enough though, if it's a pain to work with (*cough*Frostbite*cough*), this is where the tools come into play:



All in all, that Guerrilla was able to transform their linear FPS engine into what is now known as Decima is really impressive. And at this point, the engine and tools seem very mature. I'm so looking forward to HZD 2, it will be a stunner for sure.
 
I cant imagine how crazy good it will look on pc with death stranding and on next gen games... Imagine Horizon 2 on ps5 god damn.
 
Visually I thought Days Gone (UE4) was much better in most areas, not a bad looking game but graphically its a step up from Horizon, imo. I thought most of the weather effects were borderline bad though in Horizon, nothing like you have in Days Gone or RDR2. Performance is better though.

I haven't played DS so no opinion there.

RDR2 = Days Gone (some things each does better than the other) > Horizon
 
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Its already great and then came Kojima and took it to another level

Beautiful engine!
The improved Decima engine shown in Death Stranding with added wildlife and huge machines plus the PS5's custom Navi

The sequel to Horizon will be a beauty
 
Visually I thought Days Gone (UE4) was much better in most areas, not a bad looking game but graphically its a step up from Horizon, imo. I thought most of the weather effects were borderline bad though in Horizon, nothing like you have in Days Gone or RDR2. Performance is better though.

I haven't played DS so no opinion there.

RDR2 = Days Gone (some things each does better than the other) > Horizon
Days Gone doesn't get the credit it deserves visually, that game is a looker
 
gymKAH3.jpg
 
So much potential if iDeath Stranding had great driving /suspension physics. The collision system is just abysmal and it can be felt of horizon too.
 

AUTOMATON recently sat down with Akio Sakamoto, chief technology officer at Kojima Productions, to find out more about how the studio works with Decima and why they chose the engine for the development of the Death Stranding series.


—Please introduce yourself and tell us about your career.

Akio Sakamoto (hereafter Sakamoto):
My name is Sakamoto, and I serve as the CTO at Kojima Productions. I joined the studio shortly after its founding, and I've been in this role since my second year.

Before that, I worked at a major game company, where my background in graphics programming led me to contribute to the development of its in-house engine, as well as titles built on that technology.

—What was your first impression of Decima like? How has your impression of the engine changed over time?

Sakamoto:
When we were considering adopting Decima, I had the opportunity to evaluate the engine directly. It offered many of the capabilities needed to build an open-world game, and while some aspects are less immediately approachable than commercial engines, its runtime rendering analysis tools stood out. Being able to access such a rich set of data without relying on external tools is incredibly valuable. The development environment – built for large-scale, multi-disciplinary teams – also included features I had long hoped to implement in the engine I worked on previously. With all of that in mind, we decided to adopt Decima.

It has now been nearly ten years since we began using the engine. While no engine is the best choice in every scenario, Decima enables us to accomplish many things that would be difficult to achieve elsewhere.


—Death Stranding 2 has received high praise not only for its character models, but also for its environments. I know you probably can't go into detail about your "secret sauce," but could you explain what went into creating this iconic scene, for example?

Sakamoto: To recreate the opening landscape, based on Fonts Point in California, we conducted extensive on-site research and gathered a large volume of reference material in pursuit of maximum realism.

Because the environment is an expanse of sandstone formations stretching to the horizon, large-scale geometry and lighting were the most critical elements to get right.

For the terrain, the sheer amount of geometry required us to prepare three types of data, each with distinct structures and LOD (Level of Detail) stages optimized for different sandstone formations. By dynamically switching between them based on viewing distance, we were able to reproduce dense, natural-looking terrain across a vast area.

The final polygon count reached approximately 25 million, yet the scene still maintained a stable frame rate. This was something made possible in large part by Decima's rendering capabilities.

For lighting, we repeatedly validated and adjusted our setup against actual illuminance measurements to achieve physically accurate results. Through this process, we found that relying solely on GI and SSAO did not provide sufficient occlusion during times of day when ambient light dominates.

To compensate, we introduced a dedicated mid- to long-distance occlusion map to better control SkyLight behavior, which significantly enhanced the final image quality.

Through these technical refinements, and the strengths of the Decima Engine, we were able to bring this landscape to life with the level of beauty and fidelity we aimed for.

—Death Stranding 2 also had a lot more extravagant moving objects than its predecessor, but I was impressed by how stable the performance remained, even in that fireworks scene early on.

Sakamoto: During the concept art phase, there was a request from the team to depict numerous fireworks inspired by the "Day of the Dead" celebrations in Mexico. We had originally built a system in DS1 capable of generating many particles for the BTs, and we expanded and refined that system so that it could also render fireworks. By specializing the system for this purpose, it also became easier to experiment with reflections.


—Do only programmers work directly with Decima? In a recent interview, you commented that you want artists to be able to create shaders too.

Sakamoto: When people talk about game engines, attention tends to focus on the parts that relate directly to the game's visual expression. But in reality, a game engine provides a wide range of functions that support every aspect of development. In that sense, the number and type of tools used may differ depending on one's role, but I don't think there is a single developer whose work is completely unrelated to Decima.

—Do you modify Decima at Kojima Productions? If so, do you communicate modifications to Guerilla? I found it interesting that you were given a "Special Thanks" in Horizon Forbidden West's credits, so I was wondering if you provided feedback to Guerilla on Kojima Productions' case studies to improve the engine's functionality.

Sakamoto: Even when something appears visually similar, Kojima Productions and Guerrilla don't always require the exact same expressive capabilities. When we need functionality specific to our projects, we modify the engine ourselves – and in some cases, develop entirely new features. We share these updates with Guerrilla at the code level.

When we first adopted Decima, we began holding regular meetings with Guerrilla, and this practice continues today. I'm not sure whether our contributions warranted a Special Thanks credit in Horizon Forbidden West, but in those sessions, we present the modifications we've made, the features we've added, and the results from our internal testing. I believe some of this work has served as a reference and has been incorporated into Guerrilla's environment as well.

—Thank you for your time.
 
For lighting, we repeatedly validated and adjusted our setup against actual illuminance measurements to achieve physically accurate results. Through this process, we found that relying solely on GI and SSAO did not provide sufficient occlusion during times of day when ambient light dominates.
Kojima: "The snow is wrong…"
Dev: "Holy Molly…"
 
SquareEnix should have used Decima instead of UE for FF7 Remake 🤷‍♂️
this remind me there is a moment where i used to hope SE use Fox Engine. well the engine got trashed by Konami later.

UE4 is fine. the version they use also modified version. any issue with it basically due to the developers itself.
 
this remind me there is a moment where i used to hope SE use Fox Engine. well the engine got trashed by Konami later.

UE4 is fine. the version they use also modified version. any issue with it basically due to the developers itself.
It is fine. I just think it would have more support from Sony than from Epic, especially on stuff made for the PS5 gen.
 
This is legit my favorite engine and I hate the fact that people choose to use that POS known as Unreal.

yes...I am aware of the differences. Decima is an in house engine that developers know the ins and outs of.
 
Yeah, was a great Dutch trading post indeed. Gave us a lot of wealth for being Japan exclusive for 200 years.
 
SquareEnix should have used Decima instead of UE for FF7 Remake 🤷‍♂️
This is the biggest fumble for some reason people dont mention at all, after FF15 Square decided to bin their in-house engine and this was around the time they sealed exclusivity deals with Sony. I just imagined Rebirth built on Decima and almost creamed my pants
 
SquareEnix should have used Decima instead of UE for FF7 Remake 🤷‍♂️
Not sure if Decima is the right fit for the fast-paced anime fights SE is doing in FF7.

That said, FF was peak when it was always trying new ideas without attachment for each new entry. I'd like to see a potential FFXVII on this engine. But, after Versus XIII development hell, I don't think SE should be messing too much with engines and either stick to UE4 for the future or migrate to UE5 if it makes sense and just innovate on the music, art, gameplay and story department.
 
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Good engine. But it'll be cool if they can make their games interesting lore-wise and make their characters not to look like a fucking 5€ cosplay.
 
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I had a weird issue with Horizon Forbidden West last night. I bought it on PC last night and played the first opening bit.
Varl's face kept flashing green off and on. I looked it up online and saw that it's been an issue for many years and has not been fixed.
But, there was a user setting fix that did indeed fix it. Just turning off Nvidia reflex made the green face flash go away.
Weird.
 
I had a weird issue with Horizon Forbidden West last night. I bought it on PC last night and played the first opening bit.
Varl's face kept flashing green off and on. I looked it up online and saw that it's been an issue for many years and has not been fixed.
But, there was a user setting fix that did indeed fix it. Just turning off Nvidia reflex made the green face flash go away.
Weird.
Reflex and Frame Gen had a weird issue in H:FW for me. I got all sorts of stutters. I worked around this by using AMD Framegen (on my 4090!) and turning off Reflex.

It worked.

Although, I now think this issue was due to me disabling my HDMI monitor and the stutter was caused by the GPU trying to handshake. I finished the game and haven't tested it recently
 
Reflex and Frame Gen had a weird issue in H:FW for me. I got all sorts of stutters. I worked around this by using AMD Framegen (on my 4090!) and turning off Reflex.

It worked.
This is the first time I've had an issue with Reflex. Usually I turn it on even if I don't need it.
I saw videos online of HFW in town with all the faces flashing in and out. Turning off reflex fixed it.

I don't really understand how reflex works. But it does. I did not have framegen enabled and the face flashing issue was still there.
I don't remember Death Stranding 1 having this issue. But I also dont remember what settings I was using. DS is also a Decima game.
 
This is the first time I've had an issue with Reflex. Usually I turn it on even if I don't need it.
I saw videos online of HFW in town with all the faces flashing in and out. Turning off reflex fixed it.

I don't really understand how reflex works. But it does. I did not have framegen enabled and the face flashing issue was still there.
I don't remember Death Stranding 1 having this issue. But I also dont remember what settings I was using. DS is also a Decima game.
I think the issue was caused by my monitor and HDMI. I havent tested it since the game is uninstalled. But other games i was having this weird stutter was caused by it.
 
"The final polygon count reached approximately 25 million, yet the scene still maintained a stable frame rate. This was something made possible in large part by Decima's rendering capabilities."

I assume he means 25 million polygons per frame. Running at 60 fps that's a whopping 1,5 billion polys per second. How far we've come since the N64 days..
 
"The final polygon count reached approximately 25 million, yet the scene still maintained a stable frame rate. This was something made possible in large part by Decima's rendering capabilities."

I assume he means 25 million polygons per frame. Running at 60 fps that's a whopping 1,5 billion polys per second. How far we've come since the N64 days..
After reading your post, I was reminded of ancient Sony being like:

"Guys...you have to check out this fucking dinosaur."

63885addc47b234f27e1842cac979831fc38d3e2.gif
 
I had a weird issue with Horizon Forbidden West last night. I bought it on PC last night and played the first opening bit.
Varl's face kept flashing green off and on. I looked it up online and saw that it's been an issue for many years and has not been fixed.
But, there was a user setting fix that did indeed fix it. Just turning off Nvidia reflex made the green face flash go away.
Weird.
Speaking of HFW, I'm playing it now on PC and I noticed something strange since its launch. It seems the vanilla version has different lighting, so far I noticed it only in cutscenes.


It's like this in every cutscene, not just this one, it seems that the "hero lighting" is either bugged or toned down or something. I read all the update notes and can't find a mention or anything about this.
Reverting to the previous build it looks like the vanilla version, so only from the 1.5 update it's this thing.

I even compared old vs new playthroughs on YT and the same differences in lighting. Did you notice something like this?, I can't seem to find anywhere online somebody talking about this.
 
Speaking of HFW, I'm playing it now on PC and I noticed something strange since its launch. It seems the vanilla version has different lighting, so far I noticed it only in cutscenes.


It's like this in every cutscene, not just this one, it seems that the "hero lighting" is either bugged or toned down or something. I read all the update notes and can't find a mention or anything about this.
Reverting to the previous build it looks like the vanilla version, so only from the 1.5 update it's this thing.

I even compared old vs new playthroughs on YT and the same differences in lighting. Did you notice something like this?, I can't seem to find anywhere online somebody talking about this.
The issue I had was like this. Turning off NVIDIA reflex fixed it.

 
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