That's not the point I'm trying to make. I'm just saying that it's proof that Nintendo isn't 5 years behind with HD development. In fact, every big Wii and 3DS game they've released has used some minor HD assets.
Rumor: Xbox 3 = 6-core CPU, 2GB of DDR3 Main RAM, 2 AMD GPUs w/ Unknown VRAM, At CES
- Thread starter subversus
- Start date
- Status
That's not the point I'm trying to make. I'm just saying that it's proof that Nintendo isn't 5 years behind with HD development. In fact, every big Wii and 3DS game they've released has used some minor HD assets.
Aizu_Itsuko
Member
True but I don't think they are starting from scratch either.
They knew this was coming so they have probably prepared so even if it takes them some time to adjust they have plenty of info out there to get get up to speed with modern day rendering techniques.
I don't think they will have as much trouble as japanese devs at the beginning of this gen.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
You're still ignoring the fact that it makes zero sense to sell a DD-only SKU when the on-board memory will be filled with a single game, and most people's monthly bandwith caps obliterated along with it. And retailers still aren't allowing publishers to release their games day and date in digital formats (for consoles at least). It's a terrible business model for anything outside of the PC space. Any console (or SKU) shipping without an optical drive will be DoA until at least 2020.
But who says Nintendo wasn't preparing to go into HD with the Revolution? Nintendo has already said they usually work on multiple concepts for consoles. Im more inclined to believe Nintendo at the 11th hour simply decided HD wasn't the way to go yet, and settled for the Wii and motion controls. Now they are naturally progressing into HD, but are also bringing in something extra. Tablet controllers. What will Microsoft bring in... Kinect 2? Is that it? I sure hope not. But that all depends what Kinect 2 is all about.
If Kinect 2 is immersing the player into the game without having to use a TV screen...
Kind of like this wet dream:
http://nintendookie.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/nintendo-on.jpg
Then maybe MS will be on to something.
Imagine... Kinect camera scans your house.
It creates from that an alien world, a stage, boxing ring, any place you want... and you can see it all with special glasses.
One step close to VR.
Mr. B Natural
Member
Except you said it looks better than anything that came out in 2005 - 06...and the Wii-U isn't coming out tomorrow and other devs, Sony and Microsoft aren't just gonna sit on their ass from now.
And it wasn't even a tech demo to a system as the system apparently isn't even close to being finalized...as Nintendo fanboys never fail to remind themselves every freggin time a critique of the system is uttered.
Nintendo had dev kits. The system still isn't finalized. My god, have any of you guys been around for pre-system-launch periods or did you just join videogaming in 2010? Do you people know how much of a disaster the 360 kits were just a mere 6 months prior to its launch? The results devs were getting were ... let's just say "less than focused" compared to the final hardware. This is *normal*
Mr. B Natural
Member
Thanks for putting words in my mouth. Appreciate it.
I didn't say it wasn't normal. Again, something fans keep reiterating over and over again as if it means anything.
You CAN NOT determine ANYTHING about the Wii-U with that stupid zelda "demo." Period. You might as well try to determine what square soft was able to accomplish by showing the FF8 fmv in real time on the PS2 (or the Bouncer real-time fmv). It means absolutely, positively nothing. Nada, zilch. It only shows what Nintendo can do if they didn't have to make a game...and on theoretical hardware. And what they showed was comparable to what you have seen on a 360 or PS3. So, to say that it proves Nintendo isn't 5 or so years behind HD development is not only premature, it's also wrong. As I already stated, the competition isn't going to stand still, and the poster couldn't even admit that it looks anything above and beyond AAA titles of the past 4 or more years...on a "next-gen" system. What is defined as 5 years behind now is not going to be 5 years behind X years from now.
Nintendo may not be 5 years behind, but they may be. We have NO idea thanks to the lackluster showing of the console. Saying otherwise (and then showing a short gif of a minimally interactive demo) is straight up rose-tinted nonsense. But that's *normal* as well, isn't it?
I would say that of the demos they showed that had global illumination, it would certainly put the current gen systems in a hard place. But as an aside, unlike FMVs this was rendered in realtime. Both in HD on the console, and in SD on the tablet from a different angle (i.e. 2 scenes). I'm not going to sit here and calculate pixels like a B3D post. Are you trying to claim, however, that the demos they showed could run "as is" on the PS360?
I can't expect to speak for others, but I think in regards to "Zelda demo" - they were trying to point out that the pre-console Zelda demos always looked worse than whatever they put out as the actual game. In general, that is a pattern with Nintendo. They sparingly use CG, which differs from the strategy of many other studios (including EA, MGS, SCE, etc). When MS and Sony unveil their next systems at E3, I know I'm going to see healthy amounts of unattainable footage done in CGI renders.
What I do agree with you on, however, is that it proves nothing in regards to "HD development" - we simply won't know until the games start pouring out. I would hazard to say, however, that they haven't been pouring money into that R&D - they have. We just won't know the results for another year or two.
While nobody will be getting a bulk deal on HDs anytime soon, I think a large-scale order of Blu-Ray drives would cost less than an OEM kit from Newegg, wouldn't they? The Xbox 3 will have some kind of a blu-ray drive in it, whether it's just blu-laser based or has the movie playback license. Which, btw, some bare OEM drives do not. (The playback license is something you pay for when you buy software).
Explain to me again what the point of that would be.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Bling.
Proelite
Member
Kinect TV $199-$299
Kinect 2.0
Arm + Powervr SOC
Ram
Kinect Games are "streamed from the internet" into temporary cache.
Main focus would be the TV aspect.
Closest experience would be the entertainment systems on the back of jet airplanes.
Xbox 3 $399
Kinect 2.0
Powerful CPU
Powerful GPU
Lots of Ram
Xbox 3 Pro $499
Blu-ray Movie playback
Bigger HD
Kinect 2.0
Arm + Powervr SOC
Ram
Kinect Games are "streamed from the internet" into temporary cache.
Main focus would be the TV aspect.
Closest experience would be the entertainment systems on the back of jet airplanes.
Xbox 3 $399
Kinect 2.0
Powerful CPU
Powerful GPU
Lots of Ram
Xbox 3 Pro $499
Blu-ray Movie playback
Bigger HD
dragonelite
Member
Because we can.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
1) Nintendo isn't the only developer making Wii U games
2) Nintendo games don't depend on graphical bells and whistles to sell
Of all the people making games for the system, Nintendo's ability to wrap their heads around global illumination or tessellation or any other graphical technique is utterly meaningless to the long term success of the console, or for determining its true graphical potential. Would you judge the 360's graphical capabilities by Fable and Kinect Sports, or by Red Dead Redemption, Assassin's Creed, and Crysis 2?
History doesn't always repeat itself either. Not to mention that Zelda screen on the previous page looks better than anything seen in an actual Zelda game IMO. And there are plenty of examples of Nintendo overshooting their tech demos in the past. From that city render for N64 to that forest tech demo that was supposed to represent the GameCube power.
Fact is the bird demo, the Zelda demo and all others are done using non-final hardware. and with how secretive Nintendo has been with its specs it's idiotic to say one way or another if what has been produced for those demonstrations will be representative of how final games end up looking. Or if the hardware they ran on will actually be a close representation of the final hardware.
It will be impossible to tell that to Nintendo fanboys on this site though, where the more and more I read from them it looks like the nerd versions of twilight fans rooting for team Jacob. My only hope is Nintendo manages to produce a relatively powerful system compared to the competition because I feel like if they don't, they will get left behind with third parties again and I don't think the tablet idea is the sort of Trojan horse that can make the wiiU as successful as the nunchuck and pointer made the wii. And because Nintendo first party games are mostly great I don't want to see that company die or go the way of sega.
It looks better than Uncharted 3, imo, which the point I was making. Also keep in mind that it was made on an underclocked alpha dev kit (which is not the same as a reference).
*sigh* If you're honestly dumb enough to believe that Nintendo hasn't been working on HD development at all for the past five years and they're just starting from scratch, then I don't know what to say. Just tell me this: do you think that Microsoft will be able to make a game that looks as good as BF3 PC maxed-out on day one?
No. Even OoT 3D looks better than that. It looks like a DreamCast game. TP destroys in in every way except AA.
infinityBCRT
Member
I just hope we see something soon, whether it be at CES or E3. The biggest disappointment would be not hearing anything official from MS next year about a new console.
higherARC05
Banned
Enough with nintendo. This thread is about the Next-XBOX.
higherARC05
Banned
I would actualy like that. Means a possible 2014 launch.
More time for backlog of 360 games and enjoy wiiu goodness.
So, getting quasi-back on topic: What developers can MS forge a relationship with for next-gen exclusives?
Some possibilities:
Crytek - Currently working on Kinect-exclusive Ryse... kinda looks like crap imo, but maybe the relationship will blossom into something good on Loop.
4A Games - One of the few teams still identified with PC. Metro 2033 was PC/360 only (no PS3 version). Although the sequel will be fully multiplatform (including a WiiU version), this team might be more susceptible to MS moneyhats than a larger studio.
CD Projekt - Another team known for PC work. Currently working on 360 console exclusive Witcher 2. These guys have the technical ability and manpower to deliver a showcase title on a next-gen console. Their legacy of PC work makes them a pretty good fit in Microsoft's camp.
Some possibilities:
Crytek - Currently working on Kinect-exclusive Ryse... kinda looks like crap imo, but maybe the relationship will blossom into something good on Loop.
4A Games - One of the few teams still identified with PC. Metro 2033 was PC/360 only (no PS3 version). Although the sequel will be fully multiplatform (including a WiiU version), this team might be more susceptible to MS moneyhats than a larger studio.
CD Projekt - Another team known for PC work. Currently working on 360 console exclusive Witcher 2. These guys have the technical ability and manpower to deliver a showcase title on a next-gen console. Their legacy of PC work makes them a pretty good fit in Microsoft's camp.
The less they have had exclusives the better they have done. Kinect will be the focus for exclusives. They will still have Halo and Fable but tbh they seem to be pretty happy to be just the COD and multiplatform box
Genesis Knight
Member
Gag, Nintendo in my Microsoft thread.
With the rumors about People Can Fly picking up the Gears banner, Epic working on a new "next-gen" IP, and their tradition of leveraging tech demos into games, is it a fair bet that we'll be seeing (at least aspects of) Samaritan on the next Xbox console?
With the rumors about People Can Fly picking up the Gears banner, Epic working on a new "next-gen" IP, and their tradition of leveraging tech demos into games, is it a fair bet that we'll be seeing (at least aspects of) Samaritan on the next Xbox console?
I think you're mistaking cause and effect here. 360 did well in the beginning on the strength of bioshock, mass effect, gears of war, halo, etc. By around 2008 360 had enough critical mass (and low price) to keep selling despite lacking exclusives. That doesn't mean the next box can cause along without exclusive games.
3rd party platform exclusives are all but dead in the water next gen (hell, they're almost dead this gen). Especially ones that are centered around dual-analog input.
If the hardware can run it, developers will be inclined to port it. This even includes iPad2 and Vita, where applicable.
I'd rather have them spend that money on a standard cup holder.
herzogzwei1989
Banned
The MixCore 'Rebirth' forest demo for GameCube at Spaceworld 2000 was not meant to show Gamecube's rendering power. Only it's FMV/CG playback ability. Although there was a small portion of it that was actually rendered realtime.
if they can get a pseudo exclusive COD like they got with COD2 during 360s launch it would single handedly carry the system. basically launching a year ahead of ps4, having a Call of duty named product to go along with it thats not available on the current systems, no matter how minuscule the upgrade is compared to the 360/ps3 version of that year and boom
you dont need a halo/forza/gears stacked line up
Thunder Monkey
Banned
A simplified version of Samaritan is what I'd wager. All but the most discerning eye will be fooled.
Honestly I expect all three to do approximations of Samaritan. It would look better on Loop than WiiU, and PS4 it might even be closer.
Getting something to look that good under game friendly conditions will be easier and easier. Not sure how many will invest to achieve it though.
gamergirly
Member
Wow, didnt expect to come in and see so much Nintendo talk x_X. What's with the Zelda demo?
Thunder Monkey
Banned
It's pretty.
There isn't a company in the world (even Microsoft) that can afford a CoD exclusive anymore. 3rd party games are, for the most part, going to be multiplatform on everything it can be ported to. Especially the big expensive ones.
higherARC05
Banned
Seeing that AMD will show and release soon the HD7000s cards, if the Next-XBOX is releasing in 2012 it will most definetly have a 28nm GCN card from AMD.
But now if they release in 2013 it will be even more better with optimisations.
But now if they release in 2013 it will be even more better with optimisations.
AMD is only ready to release the mobile variants of its 7000 series cards "soon" - the desktop variants are months off, and are not ready for mass production. Limited yield parts are not condusive to console launches (just ask Sony). The 28nm launch will be very limited-yield for a good while.
Quite a lot of assumption there buddy.
TSMC has started volume production of 28nm already. If MS was indeed planning to use a custom design of the GCN arch then why would they have supply/yeild issues in 2012/2013? By then TSMC would be testing 20 and 14nm nodes and 28nm should be quite mature.
BlueTsunami
there is joy in sucking dick
Me too mentality now that Nintendo is building what could be considered a power horse... three years ago.
It's a fact that the first release of the 28nm AMD chips will be the mobile variants.
MS is releasing the Xbox 3 next holiday season - that's almost guaranteed. If they want something based on Southern Islands in there (which is a possibility, of course) they need something close to taped-out yesterday.
AMD will be using TSMC's full capacity to produce the high-end desktop cards as soon as possible - that's where the priority will lie when it comes to non-mobile chips.
If you have the specs for the Wii U, please visit the thread and post them. There are a lot of us tech heads that would love to know.
planar1280
Banned
The next xbox should be Called Xbox Tee standalone
The xbox bundle should be called
Kinectvtee
Kinect - TV - Xbox
The xbox bundle should be called
Kinectvtee
Kinect - TV - Xbox
Microsoft Inadvertently Teasing Major Xbox News At CES 2012
http://www.dualpixels.com/profiles/blogs/microsoft-inadvertently-teasing-major-xbox-news-at-ces-2012
http://api.ning.com/files/9sa9WH9cX...4886023_16547831022_11049419_1811827062_n.jpg
Me thinks it's nothing
http://www.dualpixels.com/profiles/blogs/microsoft-inadvertently-teasing-major-xbox-news-at-ces-2012
http://api.ning.com/files/9sa9WH9cX...4886023_16547831022_11049419_1811827062_n.jpg
Me thinks it's nothing
McHuj
Member
What gets built and with what priority, isn't for AMD to decide. It's TSMC's choice, and likely will go to the highest bidder. An order for high end GPU's from AMD will likely be orders of magnitude smaller than one from a console manufacture for their GPU.
Also, it's very likely that whatever is in the next xbox, already taped out. Just because 28nm isn't ready for production and consumer sales, doesn't mean a company like AMD or MS can't tape out a limited number of test chips for internal development/testing. There were rumors that Southern Islands taped out back in Feb/March.
McHuj
Member
I think something xbox is going to happen at CES. Their have been rumors of MS trying to license kinect to TV manufactures. I'm going to predict that we'll finally see an xbox/kinect built into a TV and a many more Xbox "live tv" deals.
I just don't think we'll see the new model at CES, maybe something at GDC.
lol, you do know that the first release of mGPUs could be because of the OEM schedule and not issues with the process node itself?
Again, a whole lot of assumptions in there. Your arguments are all based on them while I'm countering you with facts and links to back it up.
And just for the sake of it, 28nm parts have already taped out long ago and not yesterday. http://hothardware.com/News/AMD-Demonstrates-Next-Generation-28nm-Graphics-Processor/ (this was taken 3 months back so obviously the tape-out was much earlier)
bgassassin
Member
I'm still expecting it to use GCN till they show otherwise.
There are plenty of articles out there discussing how much trouble TSMC had with 28nm. I don't need to link anything for you.
The rumours have it pegged at taping out in March. The issue (to this point) has been with mass production of said parts. At this point next year, I'd expect it to be much better obviously... but better enough to be placed in 10 million XBox 3s?
Everybody had issues with 28nm, GF's efforts so far not even close. This is quite common, they've had issues with 32nm as well, so much that they decided it was not worth it and skipped it altogether.
The situation has changed a lot now. TSMC is in full production of their 28nm lines.
Did Microsoft launch 360 with 10 million units shipped to retailers?
Sounds like a Kinect base settop box for 2012. True nextbox in 2013.
McHuj
Member
I think it took them over a year to reach 10 million. They barerly cleared 3 million in the first 6 months.
They had many manufacturing issues in the first year, but looking back on it, was it worth it? I say absolutely.
If MS starts stockpiling from now, 3 million by this time next year should be a piece of cake. For reference, AMD was able to ship 25 million DX11 units in under a year.
EA listing "next-gen" as platform for some of their titles:
http://www.msxbox-world.com/news/ar...3-confirmed-ea-listing-games-as-next-gen.html
If it's just the WiiU, why not... list it as "WiiU"?
http://www.msxbox-world.com/news/ar...3-confirmed-ea-listing-games-as-next-gen.html
If it's just the WiiU, why not... list it as "WiiU"?
- Status