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brotkasten said:
So nothing has changed.
Click to expand...

Actually yes it has, carriers are no longer being shamed into releasing an update because their competitors are, the quote "although not everybody will receive or require them. It depends on your country, carrier, and phone model" gives the carriers carte blanche to say the update isn't required as the handset works, so conceivably you may not get the keyboard fix or the SMS attack fix, depending on if the carrier is still bound by the if you miss one update you have to release the next which appears to no longer be the case as carriers have to request it.

I'll hold judgement on that situation until someone clears it up, but as it stands a lot has changed.
 
frontieruk said:
Actually yes it has, carriers are no longer being shamed into releasing an update because their competitors are, the quote "although not everybody will receive or require them. It depends on your country, carrier, and phone model" gives the carriers carte blanche to say the update isn't required as the handset works, so conceivably you may not get the keyboard fix or the SMS attack fix, depending on if the carrier is still bound by the if you miss one update you have to release the next which appears to no longer be the case as carriers have to request it.

I'll hold judgement on that situation until someone clears it up, but as it stands a lot has changed.
Click to expand...

Literally nothing has changed.
“We build an update for everyone, and certify them with carriers,” he said. “They’re on a regular cadence as they are on the PC. If a carrier wants to stop an update, they can. But they will get it out on the next release.”

“Updates are cumulative,” he added. “If a carrier doesn’t get their testing done in time, the next push date comes and it goes out then.

“Carriers could in fact block updates to sell you a phone. That can happen,” he said. “We don’t expect that to happen. We are not going to push updates onto carrier networks that they have not tested. Microsoft is being very trusting of the carriers here. It’s very different from the situation with Windows Mobile, where every phone was very different and a full test pass was required on every phone. Here, there’s no impact on OEM code, network code, etc. There are upgrades that will require a full test pass. Most will not.”
Click to expand...

This is from November 2010.

AT&T skipped the pre-NoDo update and it looks like they're skipping the 7740 update as well.
 
AT&T has skipped everything but NoDo and Mango. My guess is every update that goes out costs them $X to certify and they feel it makes more sense to just wait for the larger ones.
 
We can pretend that nothing changed and MS just put up a blog post saying absolutely nothing, but it seems that the process has changed.

It seems that MS is not offering carriers any updates for them to reject (which in the past would trigger the next update automatically). Instead, carriers now have to decide if they want to take on an update, not whether they have to reject a specific update.

As mentioned, MS is also moving away from the where's my update page, which was crucial in pressuring carriers to carry through on important updates. We are back to guessing IF an update is on its way at all. Seriously, that's huge. Is my Focus S getting the CRITICAL SMS security and disappearing keyboard update? Don't know. If it is, what step is my update in? No clue. What about the known bug on my phone with the keyboard lag if I turn sounds on, is that getting fixed? Eric's done talking.

Same goes for tango, etc.
 
Obviously you would assume that AT&T will update with Tango, but the disappearing keyboard and SMS issue are both pretty big deals. It will be interesting to see if they certify that update.

Do OEM updates have to be certified by the carrier as well/can they choose to not do them?
 
VanMardigan said:
It seems that MS is not offering carriers any updates for them to reject (which in the past would trigger the next update automatically). Instead, carriers now have to decide if they want to take on an update, not whether they have to reject a specific update.

As mentioned, MS is also moving away from the where's my update page, which was crucial in pressuring carriers to carry through on important updates. We are back to guessing IF an update is on its way at all. Seriously, that's huge. Is my Focus S getting the CRITICAL SMS security and disappearing keyboard update? Don't know. If it is, what step is my update in? No clue. What about the known bug on my phone with the keyboard lag if I turn sounds on, is that getting fixed? Eric's done talking.

Same goes for tango, etc.
Click to expand...

I really think that the whole carriers can't block two updates back to back thing is BS and was their hope before they realized they weren't in the position to dictate a thing to carriers. Regarding taking it versus rejecting it, it really is the same thing.

The where's my update page is nice, but it was going to become more and more of a disaster as their are more and more models of phones. By march, the number of phones on AT&T will probably be triple what they were when that page was created.

Really think people are reading too far into this.
 
VanMardigan said:
We can pretend that nothing changed and MS just put up a blog post saying absolutely nothing, but it seems that the process has changed.

It seems that MS is not offering carriers any updates for them to reject (which in the past would trigger the next update automatically). Instead, carriers now have to decide if they want to take on an update, not whether they have to reject a specific update.

As mentioned, MS is also moving away from the where's my update page, which was crucial in pressuring carriers to carry through on important updates. We are back to guessing IF an update is on its way at all. Seriously, that's huge. Is my Focus S getting the CRITICAL SMS security and disappearing keyboard update? Don't know. If it is, what step is my update in? No clue. What about the known bug on my phone with the keyboard lag if I turn sounds on, is that getting fixed? Eric's done talking.

Same goes for tango, etc.
Click to expand...

I don't blame them for taking the page down. It does get really complicated to track all the data down, now that we get more and more phones. Just read Rivera's post about his device id tracking experience. I think he had something like 20 or 30 IDs for nine devices.

e:

qZtBn.png


•HTC has 7 devices on market, but our data shows 28 actual configurations (plus a bonus HTC Leo configuration missing a manufacturer tag altogether)
•LG has 2 devices on market, but our data shows 7 actual configurations
•Dell has 1 device on market, but our data shows 2 actual configurations
•Nokia and Fujitsu are being good partners with 1 device on market with just 1 actual configuration.
Click to expand...
 
PG2G said:
The where's my update page is nice, but it was going to become more and more of a disaster as their are more and more models of phones. By march, the number of phones on AT&T will probably be triple what they were when that page was created.

Really think people are reading too far into this.
Click to expand...

The difference, based on the vague language, is that MS will not offer the carriers the update. The carriers have to "request" it. Which begs the question, why would a carrier request an update?

Also, brot, MS already keeps track of all those configurations and tests for them. The only difference now is that the update table will no longer be publicly available.

If anything, I think this change is actually much worse than we all think right now. It seems the only company that will update their phone past the 18 month mark is Apple, and Google's nexus line is still the only Android worth recommending for folks that care about important updates.

Windows phone, just months after its greatest update triumph, has taken massive steps back. We'll have to wait for Apollo to know for sure.

Seriously, everyone just bow to Apple, they are truly the gold standard. How many updates has the 4s gotten since launch? It seems like several updates per month. Does anyone think that the SMS security hole or a bug as big as the disappearing keyboard (which was around since the mango beta)would not have been fixed within a week on iPhone?
 
VanMardigan said:
The difference, based on the vague language, is that MS will not offer the carriers the update. The carriers have to "request" it. Which begs the question, why would a carrier request an update?

Also, brot, MS already keeps track of all those configurations and tests for them. The only difference now is that the update table will no longer be publicly available.

If anything, I think this change is actually much worse than we all think right now. It seems the only company that will update their phone past the 18 month mark is Apple, and Google's nexus line is still the only Android worth recommending for folks that care about important updates.

Windows phone, just months after its greatest update triumph, has taken massive steps back. We'll have to wait for Apollo to know for sure.

Seriously, everyone just bow to Apple, they are truly the gold standard. How many updates has the 4s gotten since launch? It seems like several updates per month. Does anyone think that the SMS security hole or a bug as big as the disappearing keyboard (which was around since the mango beta)would not have been fixed within a week on iPhone?
Click to expand...

Accodring to Wiki it got two updates. One was iOS 5.0.1 and the other one a specific 4S update.
 
VanMardigan said:
The difference, based on the vague language, is that MS will not offer the carriers the update. The carriers have to "request" it. Which begs the question, why would a carrier request an update?
Click to expand...

What is the difference? Do you think this is like push vs. pull where the carrier doesn't know there is an update until they ask? Of course Microsoft is going to inform them about it and they have the option to certify it or not, just like they do now.
 
Taking the "where's my update" page down because there are too many phones to track is something I would expect from RIM. If Microsoft can keep track of all the drivers they include in Windows 7, they can do this simple thing.
 
giga said:
Taking the "where's my update" page down because there are too many phones to track is something I would expect from RIM. If Microsoft can keep track of all the drivers they include in Windows 7, they can do this simple thing.
Click to expand...

Microsoft: "But I don't wanna."
 
I think the most likely reason behind the removal of update page is because of carriers complain. I think this was mention on Twit tech news about carriers not too happy about Windows Phone update.
 
Korey said:
Why are updates in 2012 such a huge deal to carriers? Bandwidth?
Click to expand...

Carriers need to ensure that millions of devices can all download, safely install, and boot up from an OS update. Carriers don't want that responsibility, even though they are hellbent on locking down and controlling everything else about the user experience. So carriers will avoid pushing updates except when absolutely necessary, especially OTA updates which can have a million things go wrong during the download and install process. If anything goes wrong, the carrier gets to replace the owner's device at a loss to them.

In short: carriers hate updates. Carriers wish for the good old days of dumbphones where what you buy is what you get, forever (or 2 years, whichever comes first).
 
Korey said:
Why are updates in 2012 such a huge deal to carriers? Bandwidth?
Click to expand...

Unknown Soldier said:
Carriers need to ensure that millions of devices can all download, safely install, and boot up from an OS update. Carriers don't want that responsibility, even though they are hellbent on locking down and controlling everything else about the user experience. So carriers will avoid pushing updates except when absolutely necessary, especially OTA updates which can have a million things go wrong during the download and install process. If anything goes wrong, the carrier gets to replace the owner's device at a loss to them.

In short: carriers hate updates. Carriers wish for the good old days of dumbphones where what you buy is what you get, forever (or 2 years, whichever comes first).
Click to expand...

Microsoft doesnt even provide 'OTA updates'. All that comes OTA is a notification to plug the phone into a computer and then the update is delivered from there. Microsoft's servers deliver the software. If anything goes wrong the device manufacturer handles warranty (even if you take it to the carrier store the device still ends up with manufacturer). There are very reasons Carriers should be this anal about updates and none of them are good ones.
 
Crap, last time I checked I had over 3 gig free on my phone and a few game demos later I get a warning about low storage space left. Is there any way to check what's taking up all of my storage? I don't have any music/videos on my phone or anything, I've no idea what's using it all :/

Edit: Zune says 247 mb of photos, reserved space and other content 6.66 gb. I definitely don't have 6 gb of games!
 
brotkasten said:
Accodring to Wiki it got two updates. One was iOS 5.0.1 and the other one a specific 4S update.
Click to expand...

So that works out to what? Roughly an update a month? *bows*

My brand new second Gen phone has never been updated and this new policy means I have to rely on 3rd party blogs to let me know if there is anything coming to me.

Also, I had a longer reply which I lost when my keyboard disappeared and I hit the back button to try to bring it back, only then remembering there was no forward button for me to recover my post with.
 
Thurrot's take on the blog post:

Microsoft Comes Clean About New Windows Phone Update, Will No Longer Offer Update Guidance

A few days after it provided a listing of the new features and changes in the latest Windows Phone software update, which bumps the version number of the OS up to 7.10.8107.79, Microsoft offered a bit of commentary about the update and, more alarmingly, revealed that it would be kicking its useful "Where's My Phone Update?" web site to the curb.

The revelations comes, as they do so often these days, via a blog, in this case the Windows Phone Blog, and not through traditional press channels.

Anyway, there are two bits of information here. The 8107 update and then the discontinuation of the Where’s My Phone Update? site. Here's what Microsoft communicated, with a lot of added commentary.

Windows Phone update 8107

"This week we started to make a new Windows Phone update —8107—available to many Windows Phone customers," Eric Hautala wrote in the blog post. "The update, available to all carriers that request it, is part of our ongoing maintenance of Windows Phone. For more details on what’s included, check out Update History on the Windows Phone website."

All carriers that request it. That's a bit ominous, given that some carriers have shown major reluctance to delivering updates to their customers. And when you look over the list of what's fixed in this update, you sort of get the idea that this update should be made available to all Windows Phone users, not just the ones lucky enough to be using a forward-leaning carrier. Hm.

"In the months ahead, we'll continue to send out firmware and maintenance updates as needed," he adds. "These will be available across the globe—although not everybody will receive or require them. It depends on your country, carrier, and phone model. But remember that you’ll never have to guess when a Windows Phone update is waiting: Just watch for the pop up notification on your device."

I have to think this is a veiled reference to the release (or releases) that some have called Tango. While it's unclear what Tango is, or if it really exists, the consensus seems to be that it is related to lower-end phones in new and emerging markets. That is, it's not something aimed at mainstream Windows Phone customers in first-tier markets like the US and western Europe. This may explain why I've never come across the word "Tango" in any of the internal Windows Phone documentation I've viewed--all of which is related to the US only.

Where's the Where's My Phone Update site? (think about that for a second before sending in a typo fix)

"As we continue our growth, we won’t be individually detailing country, model, and carrier details on the Where's My Phone Update? site any longer," Hautala continues. "And instead of my weekly blog posts, the official Windows Phone website will be the primary place for news and information about our updates, just as Microsoft Answers is there for your support questions."

Ugh.

Reading between the lines, I'd argue that this site is all the more necessary when Windows Phone grows, not less, and that the real reason this is changing is that something else has changed behind the scenes. Bear with me for a moment, because this is pure speculation. But it goes something like this:

Last year, Microsoft got into a lot of hot water when its "NoDo" update, the first software update the company delivered to the platform, was completed but then never delivered to users. Over time, it emerged that a combination of factors were preventing the release: First, Microsoft's wireless carrier partners were blocking the update, a situation which other bloggers incorrectly reported was impossible, and that Microsoft later conceded was the case. Second, Microsoft's hardware maker partners, notably Samsung, had quietly and secretly released multiple versions of their devices, some of which actually broke the updating mechanism. (A certain version of the Samsung Focus will likely never be truly fixed in this regard, even though I've been told the issue is related to a single software certificate.)

Making its partners look bad was not, is not, part of the plan. In fact, Microsoft has never once fingered Samsung or any other hardware company, nor has it dinged AT&T, its "premier" Windows Phone partner, for being among the worst in deploying the NoDo update.

After months of bad vibes, Microsoft said it fixed this issue and then it surprised onlookers by delivering a major Windows Phone update, version 7.5 or "Mango" to virtually all customers in just over a month. This is a feat Android is incapable of, and given its past performance Microsoft was justifiable pleased with its performance. So too where Windows Phone users and fans. (Same group, really.) Mission accomplished.

Or was it? In the wake of that success, former Microsoft executive Charlie Kindel wrote that Windows Phone was struggling in the market because the software giant alienated its hardware and wireless carrier partners by locking down the platform too much and not allowing them to modify the phones as much as, say, Android licensees can do. In other words, by doing the right thing for customers, Microsoft had done the wrong thing for its partners.

Read more about that fascinating issue in Kindel: Yes, Windows Phone Is Superior, But Here's Why It's Not Selling.

So here's what I'm thinking. Microsoft agreed to stop publishing its "Where's My Phone Update?" because it makes its partners look bad, even though the site is obviously valuable for customers. They have taken a small step to reverse the relationship to appease partners on the cusp of year in which Microsoft and its hardware partners will spend several hundred million dollars promoting Windows Phone around the world. About $200 million in the US alone, in just the first half of the year. They're spending $130 million marketing just on one phone, the Nokia Ace.

Hm.
Click to expand...

http://www.winsupersite.com/blog/su...ne-update-longer-offer-update-guidance-141829
 
Nokia Lumia 800 owners:

Is your call speaker too quiet? even after setting it to 10? It's not bad but not as loud as my Focus.
 
Just flashed the Vodafone ROM on my Optimus 7 and updated from 7.0.7004 straight to 7.10.8107 and I got internet sharing and hidden wifi.

MCD said:
Nokia Lumia 800 owners:

Is your call speaker too quiet? even after setting it to 10? It's not bad but not as loud as my Focus.
Click to expand...

Anandtech criticized that in their review. The Lumia 710 is the exact opposite.

qcBdO.png
 
brotkasten said:
Just flashed the Vodafone ROM on my Optimus 7 and updated from 7.0.7004 straight to 7.10.8107 and I got internet sharing and hidden wifi.
Click to expand...

Any difference performance wise from the Open ROMs, or anything else of note?

Part of me is tempted to get rid of the SIM free ROM I have at the minute and move to a Vodafone one just to get internet sharing.
 
kharma45 said:
Any difference performance wise from the Open ROMs, or anything else of note?

Part of me is tempted to get rid of the SIM free ROM I have at the minute and move to a Vodafone one just to get internet sharing.
Click to expand...
I've read that the gps performance might be worse, but I can't confirm it, because I never use it. Other than that, it seems to be just the same. But don't forget to look up the APN settings for your carrier, or you won't be able to use data.
 
brotkasten said:
I've read that the gps performance might be worse, but I can't confirm it, because I never use it. Other than that, it seems to be just the same. But don't forget to look up the APN settings for your carrier, or you won't be able to use data.
Click to expand...

I didn't think my GPS could get much worse! Cheers for the reply, might look into it.
 
antiquegamer said:
If you are brave you can do your own manual update with this update hack tools.

http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2012...ed-get-it-now-and-update-manually/#more-26844

I update mine Titan just now. I went with ball option, no backup since I only have 8 gb left on my C drive and really don't feel like clearing anything out just to update my phone. Talking about another needed update, where the heck is the new Zune software.
Click to expand...

thanks for the link. I just flashed my Omnia 7 and it worked fine.
 
frontieruk said:
So Thurrot agrees with us that this is ms bowing to carrier/oem demands and as such the balance of power was removed from customers hands (by power I mean easily available information about which networks were good at bringing updates to the table, as customers could choose to avoid them).

Still maintain nothing's changed?
Click to expand...

Yep.

PG2G said:
What is the difference? Do you think this is like push vs. pull where the carrier doesn't know there is an update until they ask? Of course Microsoft is going to inform them about it and they have the option to certify it or not, just like they do now.
Click to expand...
 
Samsung is surprisingly not ignoring Windows Phone and brings their multi platform ChatOn app to Windows Phone as well. That's nice, I guess.

And god fucking Christ, Microsoft and their fucking focus group bullshit.

joebelfiore: @yidtech rotation lock is a good feature idea, but honestly not one we hear requested a ton. Check out uservoice! (and follow me for DMs!)
Click to expand...

Who gives a shit if people request it or not. He even admitted that it's a good idea, so build it in, goddammit .
 
So the carriers requested nodo and mango? Or were they sent those updates for certification and then decided whether or not to process those for users?
 
brotkasten said:
Thurrot's take on the blog post:



http://www.winsupersite.com/blog/su...ne-update-longer-offer-update-guidance-141829
Click to expand...

wow at this part

Microsoft's hardware maker partners, notably Samsung, had quietly and secretly released multiple versions of their devices, some of which actually broke the updating mechanism. (A certain version of the Samsung Focus will likely never be truly fixed in this regard, even though I've been told the issue is related to a single software certificate.)
Click to expand...

Cannot believe hardware makers can get away with doing this.
 
neojubei said:
wow at this part



Cannot believe hardware makers can get away with doing this.
Click to expand...

Oh, you didn't know this? It's like the article says, Samsung screwed up the whole NoDo roll-out and of course they got away with it, they're Samsung. Microsoft needs them as a Windows Phone partner more than Samsung needs Windows Phone.
 
brotkasten said:
Who gives a shit if people request it or not. He even admitted that it's a good idea, so build it in, goddammit .
Click to expand...

I tweeted him that and he DM'd me with this

"TONS of good features to do, only so much time and people to do them. 2 years ago we were totally behind..not so now! Catching up..."
 
kharma45 said:
I tweeted him that and he DM'd me with this

"TONS of good features to do, only so much time and people to do them. 2 years ago we were totally behind..not so now! Catching up..."
Click to expand...

Yeah, I know that and yet they're still missing some of the obvious poweruser stuff, just because people aren't vocal enough about it? Sure, rotation lock is a relatively unimportant feature on a phone (imo), but it's always like that and I want to know about what's next! MIX 12 is way too far away and I'm already bored of Mango.
 
brotkasten said:
Yeah, I know that and yet they're still missing some of the obvious poweruser stuff, just because people aren't vocal enough about it? Sure, rotation lock is a relatively unimportant feature on a phone (imo), but it's always like that and I want to know about what's next! MIX 12 is way too far away and I'm already bored of Mango.
Click to expand...

We should've done a bet to see who would've caved first. I remember you posting during the beta that you predicted some of the beta users here would be bored with mango shortly and would be looking at the next big thing even as the official mango rollout occurred. Didn't think it would be you first, lol.
 
When's the 8107 update supposed to be out? I still didn't get it (T-Mobile Germany)

Also had the chance to try a N9 at a store. It's nice, but not as nice as I expected and I think I prefer the Lumia.
 
VanMardigan said:
We should've done a bet to see who would've caved first. I remember you posting during the beta that you predicted some of the beta users here would be bored with mango shortly and would be looking at the next big thing even as the official mango rollout occurred. Didn't think it would be you first, lol.
Click to expand...

As much as I've been hating on the platform as of late I think I probably got bored earlier. I'd install a new beta today if I could.
 
VanMardigan said:
We should've done a bet to see who would've caved first. I remember you posting during the beta that you predicted some of the beta users here would be bored with mango shortly and would be looking at the next big thing even as the official mango rollout occurred. Didn't think it would be you first, lol.
Click to expand...

Just because I'm bored it doesn't mean I'm jumping the ship. I just wanna know what's next and what else they can do to annoy me.
 
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