If they actually took full advantage of what the PC could do most systems would not be able to deliver 60 fps, lots of AA and a high resolution.
Are current PC games a full "Generational Leap" ahead of current console games?
- Thread starter LowEndTorque
- Start date
Disagree with every single point you made, it's too subjective to have any type of meaningful debate anyway.
What isn't subjective is that BF3 offers an expanded experience on the PC due solely to the superior hardware the PC provides. Whether you personally enjoy the added game-play features or visuals is again subjective and frankly, not worth discussing (in this thread).
I should probably expand this a bit - There are many titles don't take advantage of the PC's other capabilities, namely those relating to patching and delivering software. Games like Project CARS, Minecraft, and Overgrowth are literally impossible to do on consoles because of the restrictions imposed on them.
Posted yet? http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=458542
Devs are thinking about STILL going with 720p and 30fps just to get higher quality assets.
Devs are thinking about STILL going with 720p and 30fps just to get higher quality assets.
You're completely right.
I was just bringing up MAG because it inarguably features more players on a map than BF3 does.
That I personally prefer the way they deal with the higher player count is besides the point, but the amount of players featured is higher.
But yes: BF3 on PC is the expanded experience of the BF3 on consoles.
LabouredSubterfuge
Member
It sounded more like a thought experiment than a genuine proposal. 720p is already not good enough imo. Hell, 1080p is starting to feel inadequate.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
You mean like the 3D fluid simulation in Stalker?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5RMxO5DsPA
For comparison, LBP1 and LBP2 have fluid simulation for smoke and fire but it's 2D only, so not even close.
I agree about 720 but to say 1080p is inadequate? I feel like anything higher then 1080p we start to get diminishing returns but I haven't spent alot of time above 1080p.
Looking at some old GPU articles...I think people really need to tone down their expectations.
The PS3's RSX is supposed to be slower than the 7900GT released that year. How much power did the 7900GT take under load? 50 watts.
Now, let's take a look at a high-end GPU from today: the GTX 580. How much power does it take under load? 300W.
The PS3 was a power hungry beast and it has a 225W PSU, which means its total draw is below that. Next generation consoles are likely going to take less power than that. Even mid-range GPUs like the 6850 or GTX 460 take 100-150W of power, so I wouldn't even expect that kind of GPU performance in a modern console anytime soon.
Source: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/display/power-noise_4.html#sect1
The PS3's RSX is supposed to be slower than the 7900GT released that year. How much power did the 7900GT take under load? 50 watts.
Now, let's take a look at a high-end GPU from today: the GTX 580. How much power does it take under load? 300W.
The PS3 was a power hungry beast and it has a 225W PSU, which means its total draw is below that. Next generation consoles are likely going to take less power than that. Even mid-range GPUs like the 6850 or GTX 460 take 100-150W of power, so I wouldn't even expect that kind of GPU performance in a modern console anytime soon.
Source: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/display/power-noise_4.html#sect1
7900GT only 50Watt?!
Launch PS3 units were 300W* if I remember correctly.
*MAX
Edit: nevermind
Next-gen consoles will probably all have ATI GPU's. How do they fare in power consumption?
M°°nblade;34192828 said:
Source: http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-356-2.htm
That's the total consumption.
A high end GPU alone requires over 200W of consumption during gameplay, and can peak as high as 300W. Total system consumption is well over 400W.
Computers may have gotten faster, but they're also far more power hungry than they were in the past. Video cards now come with big 2 and even 3 slot coolers with 2 90mm fans, when they used to come with small single slot coolers with a single 50mm fan.
This is a 7900GT, a high-end card which is more powerful than the PS3's RSX, and released a few months prior to the PS3:
This is a GTX 570, a high-end card which released a year ago:
Or the cooler DirectCu II version, if you prefer:
jim-jam bongs
Member
Console-only GAF doesn't want to hear this, but the GPU in the next consoles is going to look a lot more like a Tegra than a 580GTX.
The wii pulls eighteen watts during load?
People make the mistake of thinking that since Nintendo chose not to make a powerful machine this gen, they actually don't know how to make good hardware.
Nintendo are actually damn WIZARDS at making hardware, they just aren't pushing in the high-graphics direction.
Except for the part where the Wii in standby uses as much power as it does during load (not pictured on that graph).
LowEndTorque
Member
So do you think a 7900 could smoothly run Uncharted 2/3?
What do you guys think is more important, raw hardware specs or developer talent and resources? (serious question)
What do you guys think is more important, raw hardware specs or developer talent and resources? (serious question)
jim-jam bongs
Member
All of the above? (serious answer)
Downplaying the importance of raw power is just silly.
LowEndTorque
Member
Yes, we all know that both are very important, but which is more important in your opinion? Which of the two plays a larger role in defining things like "next gen" and "generational leap"?
Raw power is very important. PC GPUs are not as inefficient as you think. Keep in mind most of us target 1080p and 60fps, and that takes 4x the amount of performance required to maintain 720p and 30fps.
Felix Lighter
Member
I'd like to see talented developers working on powerful hardware, so the talent can be used doing incredible things, period, and not doing impressive things if you consider the hardware.
Raitosaito
Member
Why must there be a compromise. Progress should be made as a whole, right?
LowEndTorque
Member
In an ideal world sure.
But the reality of the situation is that consoles are where the money is, and subsequently where the developer talent, resources and big budgets are going into. So there is a compromise whether we like it or not.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Raw power, obviously. You guys are insane, and here's why.
The thing which defines a generational change is new hardware. This concept that, in spite of the fact that several generations of CPU and GPU tech have been released since the HD twins, you can use your eyes to make some determination of when "next-gen" or "generational leaps" occur is just asinine. Take a look at the Silent Hill series for a good example of why.
I understand that it's upsetting to be told that your socks won't be knocked off like they were when the PS2 came out or whatever, but assuming that you can use previous generations to dictate some acceptable level of "wow" or "pizazz" or "kablingy" for you to deem when a generational leap occurs is a form of inductive reasoning which relies on your subjective determinations and personal experience. In other words it's totally useless.
Developers don't have anything to do with when the "next-gen" starts because, by definition, it starts when the next generation of hardware is released. So you can continue to try and make some passive-aggressive point, which I'm not even sure I understand the purpose of at this stage, but it's worth pointing out that your argument makes absolutely no sense whatsoever on a basic logic level.
LowEndTorque
Member
This topic really makes people extremely defensive, oversensitive and emotional.
Some want to casually dismiss and brush aside the importance of developer talent/resources while others downplay the clear and obvious benefits of more powerful hardware.
It seems like everyone is being forced to "pick a side" and there is no middle ground with anyone. Gaf truly is insane.
Some want to casually dismiss and brush aside the importance of developer talent/resources while others downplay the clear and obvious benefits of more powerful hardware.
It seems like everyone is being forced to "pick a side" and there is no middle ground with anyone. Gaf truly is insane.
Says the guy who 1 post ago wanted people to pick the side of raw power or developer talent.
Yeah, truly crazy.
Both are important...
jim-jam bongs
Member
I gave you a middle way answer, you demanded I pick a side. You can't put the Genie back in his bottle like that.
Raitosaito
Member
I don't get it. If we're going to talk about next-gen game quality base on "talent" of the developers, then will never know when next-gen truly begins and that metric is just sort of impossible to use in a logical discussion. And if we do it base on resources, then next-gen won't come until Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo spend more than before. Both of which you can't even guarantee.
BoobPhysics101
Banned
LowEndTorque
Member
Okay, I'll give you that one. Chalk it up to poor wording on my part, my apologies.
What I was trying to ask for though is this: an explanation/outlining and wieghting of the reasons why you think developer talent/resources are important, compared and contrasted with with an explanation/outlining and weighting of why raw hardware power is important, and a weighting and assessment of each of their importance. In a nutshell, I want to hear PC die-hards talk about how they see the importance of developers in a more detailed and meaningful way than "both matter/."
But due to my poor wording of the question, you just assumed that I was on the "console side" got angry and defensive about me trying to make some sort of imagined "passive aggressive" point and only gave half the answer I was looking for.
LowEndTorque
Member
Okay.
So only raw hardware power is worthy of having a detailed, thorough and passionate discussion about (as evidenced by the bulk of posts in this thread.)
Discussing the role and importance of developer talent and resources, on the other hand, is not.
simple as that?
Haven't you read the posts?
Either the next gen starts when new consoles are being released or it means that the next gen started when the last GPU generation was released which was December 22nd.
I don't remember The Witcher 2 coming out post-Dec22 which means current PC games are not a generation ahead.
Or something?! I don't know anymore. Everything is crazy now.
Developer talent doesn't get talked about as much as hardware because it's much easier to understand the basic metrics of hardware performance. You need a god damned computer science degree, and probably a specialization in computer graphics coding, to actually back up a statement like "X is better coded then Y"; which is the kind of statement you really mean by "developer talent".
Omotesando
Member
I never understood the PC masterrace hardon for fidelity. Videogames are videogames, a really poor inferior representation of visual art at this stage.
I do understand the hardon for performance though, since gaming with 60 fps does have this undenyable benefit.
I do understand the hardon for performance though, since gaming with 60 fps does have this undenyable benefit.
Fidelity has an undeniable benefit as well: you see better...you see more.
If you have 20/40 vision, do you settle or do you go out and get yourself a pair of glasses?
You buy a console and play that!
Minecraft was announced for 360, by the way.
Omotesando
Member
Worded badly: resolution also ups the experience offcourse. Especially for the open world game it has major benefit indeed.
What i meant was: my lack of understanding for this unending love of razor sharp textures, in the context of videogame it might be cutting edge, but when I look at these screens it just doesn't convey anything worthwhile visually. Crysis jungle does look like a low budget animation series still. Art design will always reign suprem, to me at least.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
LowEndTorque
Member
This is a fair point.
Hardware specs are something that are easily understandable to most people. On the other hand, most of us don't have the qualifications to discuss the technical nuances of coding.
But what we do have are real-world results that we can judge with our own eyes. For example:
Does anyone really believe that you can take a pc with a 7900 and 256mb of ram and code a game like UC3 or KZ2 to run as well on that pc as it does on PS3? Rage is another example of a crazy technical achievement that doesn't get enough credit.
To me, that begs the question: even if next gen consoles won't have dual 7970's and 16 gigs of ram, is that really going to limit the hardware from achieving top shelf visuals once the full weight of developer talent and publisher money are thrown behind them?
Given the fact that visuals like U3 etc. (whether you personally think they look like shit or not) shouldn't even be possible on the shitty outdated tech of today's consoles, then I don't see how developer talent is something that you can just casually dismiss and just cut it out of the conversation.
Even though our lack of understanding of coding makes it more of a theoretical discussion than a technical one, it's still one worth having IMO.
Brofist
Member
Haha I thought I was the only one that felt like this. I kick up the OC on my GPU just for that extra boost of heat in my room.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
With the right team of developers who have the knowledge to code to the metal if needed, absolutely. You'd be amazed at how skilled some engineers can be.
Dash Kappei
Not actually that important
To the OP: absolutely not.
Anyone telling you otherwise has slices of ham over the eyes
Anyone telling you otherwise has slices of ham over the eyes
Yes I'm a PC gamer
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Well, there is the case of RAGE. Awesome art, like playing a painting, but heavily damaged by low res textures. I'm not saying that all games should have 4096x4096 textures, but that when great art is put into a game, I would prefer to see in its full glory.
rohlfinator
Member
In the realities of today's industry though? Aside from a few tech demos and a small handful of PC-exclusive games, that is nowhere close to happening in the current PC market.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Market realities are a separate discussion, I was simply refuting the point that it wasn't a possibility.
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