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[Zzoram]

Where does that initial investment come from?

Where does any money come from? It's always recirculating. Double taxation is a foolish argument.

Any transfer of money is taxed with very few exceptions that only allow for small limited transfers.

When you invest money, you're buying a stake in a business so you are an owner. When they make money, and you sell your stake, you've now completed a purchase and a sale. The capital gains is being generous because it only taxes you on any profit from the sale, unlike a normal sales tax where you would pay a tax on the initial purchase instead.

 

[ToxicAdam]

It could come from any number of sources. "How is it taxed twice" is the question.

What kind of sources would those be and which do you feel is the most prevalent among them?

Where does any money come from? It's always recirculating. Double taxation is a foolish argument.

One big way money recirculates is when you earn it by providing a service for someone else. That is taxed, no?

 

[Zzoram]

I think the thing that bothers me the most about Gingrich is that one of the reasons he's rising in the polls because of attacking the media.

I'll never understand how people can be fooled into believing that the media is involved in some massive far-left conspiracy.

We are talking about white Christian republicans. They have a massive victim complex.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

Where does that initial investment come from?

From your salary (let's say), which is taxed, yes. But I don't see how the gains tax on money created above that in an investment counts as being taxed "twice".

 

[RoninChaos]

Where does that initial investment come from?

I'm not understanding your argument. If someone makes gains from an initial investment, you don't think they should be taxed because they paid taxes on the money they used for the initial investment?

And your reasoning for not taxing the gains is that there might not be any gains, and you already paid taxes on the initial money you used to invest?

 

[izakq]

I won't release my tax returns because...

This morning on Fox and Friends, host Gretchen Carlson asked Romney whether he’d be willing to “make news” and agree to release his returns before April. An obstinate Romney repeated that he will only release his returns once on April 15. “The reason is very simple,” he said. “I want to beat Barack Obama. I don’t want to give the Democrats a nice little present of having multiple releases.”

If there is some nuggets in there that can damage him, shouldn't he release them now and get it over with? It doesn't make any sense.

 

[J.ceaz]

Imagine if he announced support for Stephen Colbert and Colbert registers for every primary after South Carolina?

Then he would be the greatest troll of all time.

OF ALL TIME!

 

[Zzoram]

Then he would be the greatest troll of all time.

OF ALL TIME!

Colbert is helping Cain sell books. I don't see why Cain wouldn't want more help selling more books. He was only ever in this race to sell books.

 

[Amir0x]

I won't release my tax returns because...

If there is some nuggets in there that can damage him, shouldn't he release them now and get it over with? It doesn't make any sense.

It's funny how he keeps giving gas to the whole "ok enough what ARE you hiding in your tax returns!?" crowd. How his campaign hasn't punched him in the face over this issue are beyond me.

Everyone knows Romney is rich and has a low, investment-based tax rate; everyone knows he has millions stashed away in the Cayman Islands. What else can there be in there? I bet nothing, but at this point whether something dirty is in there or not, he's made something so simple into something that's slowly eating away at his presidential run.

 

[ToxicAdam]

From your salary (let's say), which is taxed, yes. But I don't see how the gains tax on money created above that in an investment counts as being taxed "twice".

You've never heard people say "I work for the government on Monday and Tuesday"? There is clearly a delineation for many people that feel that once they earn that money, it is theirs. This, then becomes savings.

So, it's fairly simple to see how people would view a capital gains tax (on this lump of money you have already made) as a 'double tax'. Capital gains taxes is a tax on savings. No matter where those 'savings' may have come from.

 

[J.ceaz]

Colbert is helping Cain sell books. I don't see why Cain wouldn't want more help selling more books. He was only ever in this race to sell books.

And in the process he's trolled the tea party/republican party.
Do you disagree?

 

[LosDaddie]

Is it not common practice for prez candidates to release their tax returns?

 

[empty vessel]

Funny, I thought he was running on a platform where he feels money shouldn't be taxed twice. Something that millions of others believe in also.

All money is taxed multiple times, for example, the money you spend to purchase gasoline. Romney does not believe that money should not be taxed twice (because that is stupid to believe, and Romney is not stupid). He believes he should have more money and everybody else should have less. That's about the depth of it. Everything else is post hoc rationalization.

And I don't understand what this has to do with the fact that he is running on a platform of reducing to near zero his own taxes and raising most everybody else's (while cutting their benefits). Whatever else he believes, genuinely or not, that's still true.

 

[Invisible_Insane]

I just want to say that if Romney somehow loses the nomination, I will do my best to find a restaurant in New York that serves crow, and I will photograph myself eating it, and then use it as my avatar through the general.

 

[Amir0x]

Is it not common practice for prez candidates to release their tax returns?

It is common practice. As has been mentioned, his Dad once made the unprecedented move of releasing 12 years of tax returns to the public. So he knows it is common practice too.

 

[Byakuya769]

It is common practice. As has been mentioned, his Dad once made the unprecedented move of releasing 12 years of tax returns to the public. So he knows it is common practice too.

Is it typically done in the primaries?

 

[Dude Abides]

You've never heard people say "I work for the government on Monday and Tuesday"? There is clearly a delineation for many people that feel that once they earn that money, it is theirs. This, then becomes savings.

So, it's fairly simple to see how people would view a capital gains tax (on this lump of money you have already made). Capital gains taxes is a tax on savings. No matter where those 'savings' may have come from.

But to be taxed on your capital gains you have to sell your securities and make a profit on it. So it's that transfer of wealth that is being taxed, and even then only on the gains (as opposed to a sales tax where the entire value of the item being transferred is taxed).

 

[ronito]

I just want to say that if Romney somehow loses the nomination, I will do my best to find a restaurant in New York that serves crow, and I will photograph myself eating it, and then use it as my avatar through the general.

Quoted for posterity.

 

[ronito]

Should I really be mad that the government shut down Megaupload? Really?

That's up to you. But you should be mad as hell how the financial crisis was handled.

 

[ReBurn]

You've never heard people say "I work for the government on Monday and Tuesday"? There is clearly a delineation for many people that feel that once they earn that money, it is theirs. This, then becomes savings.

So, it's fairly simple to see how people would view a capital gains tax (on this lump of money you have already made). Capital gains taxes is a tax on savings. No matter where those 'savings' may have come from.

I think it's fair to say that if someone saves $100,000 from work and invests it in stock, then that stock ultimately turns into $1,000,000, that there is adequate cause to tax the $900,000 that was added in value without taxing the initial $100,000 investment. The real question in my mind is when does it get taxed? Until you convert the investment, or some portion of it, back to cash or a cash equivalent the value isn't real. The stock could fall the next day and you lose it all.

But to make a long story short, people should be paying taxes on profits made through investment. It isn't taxing savings, and it certainly isn't taxing them twice unless you're also being taxed on seed capital that you already paid income taxes on.

 

[Tristam]

I'm just referring to their victories in messaging following the health care debate, the debt ceiling, the midterm win, etc. with a competent candidate I think they would be doing alright, but with this parade of dimwits they've presented us with, theyve given Obama a huge opportunity. I think it's working in his favor and will continue to.
Given their obstructionism, I think Obama has done a pretty good job. If he can continue to promote his positives, highlight their obstructionism, keep hammering Romney's out-of-touchiness and corporate raider qualities while the economy show signs that it's heading in the right direction, he's going to win this.

The victories you refer to were accomplished with a united Republican front. The primary race is, on the other hand, a competition; that's the difference you're seeing. Sure, the Republican Party's rightward veer has allowed shockingly inept candidates to make apparent challenges to Romney's path to the nomination--and Romney's weaknesses are being quickly exposed as well--but I can't imagine any Republican not sounding like an idiot on the stage given the debates' format and audiences.

 

[[Nintex]]

Is Mitt really going to stand up against abortion overseas? Is he going to war to enforce it?

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

You've never heard people say "I work for the government on Monday and Tuesday"?

No, actually, but then I live in pinko commie New York, haha.

There is clearly a delineation for many people that feel that once they earn that money, it is theirs.

Until it is spent, at which time a tax is applied based on the nature of the transaction. Seems like money is taxed over and over in transfers, it's unavoidable and irrelevant. Money that is never ever spent isn't really money at all.

So, it's fairly simple to see how people would view a capital gains tax (on this lump of money you have already made). Capital gains taxes is a tax on savings. No matter where those 'savings' may have come from.

I guess I just fundamentally disagree with all of this.

 

[GhaleonEB]

So, it's fairly simple to see how people would view a capital gains tax (on this lump of money you have already made). Capital gains taxes is a tax on savings. No matter where those 'savings' may have come from.

It's a tax on the generation of additional wealth, an income tax by another name.

 

[Crisco]

Will Obama even campaign if he Newt wins the nomination? He should just use all his campaign money to build a giant statue of himself somewhere.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

Will Obama even campaign if he Newt wins the nomination? He should just use all his campaign money to build a giant statue of himself somewhere.

He'll show up to the debates in jeans and a college hoodie with a cup of coffee

 

[Plinko]

I'm flabbergasted that Romney won't release his returns right away.

Is he scared of people seeing how low the tax is? Someone needs to remind him that he's running for the REPUBLICAN nomination--the party that insists on low taxes for the rich.

He's rich, and he pays low taxes. It makes no sense why he wouldn't release them, UNLESS he's hiding something. Perhaps there's some information that points to the Cayman Islands money?

 

[slidewinder]

I think it's fair to say that if someone saves $100,000 from work and invests it in stock, then that stock ultimately turns into $1,000,000, that there is adequate cause to tax the $900,000 that was added in value without taxing the initial $100,000 investment. The real question in my mind is when does it get taxed?

Not until you sell it. That $900,000 could also be reduced by any losses you suffered in other investments, as well as potentially by capital loss carryover from previous years.

 

[ToxicAdam]

All money is taxed multiple times, for example, the money you spend to purchase gasoline. Romney does not believe that money should not be taxed twice (because that is stupid to believe, and Romney is not stupid). He believes he should have more money and everybody else should have less. That's about the depth of it. Everything else is post hoc rationalization.

No, I'm pretty sure he believes that investment money is what makes the world go round and taxing it is 1) a disincentive to invest more 2) less money for which the investor to reinvest as he sees fit. I don't agree with 1, but it's what people honestly believe.

That's a pretty common viewpoint to have, I don't know why you fail to accept it and instead shroud it in your usual nonsense.

But to be taxed on your capital gains you have to sell your securities and make a profit on it. So it's that transfer of wealth that is being taxed, and even then only on the gains (as opposed to a sales tax where the entire value of the item being transferred is taxed).

That's a fair point.

 

[Mike M]

I just want to say that if Romney somehow loses the nomination, I will do my best to find a restaurant in New York that serves crow, and I will photograph myself eating it, and then use it as my avatar through the general.

It really is kind of amazing how quickly he went from seemingly having it locked up to being knocked horribly, horribly off balance like this.

 

[Plinko]

Will Obama even campaign if he Newt wins the nomination? He should just use all his campaign money to build a giant statue of himself somewhere.

Newt is dangerous as an opponent for one reason--people seem to lap up his one-liners and statements. He yells, stomps around, and has fake outrage. People like that.

If you do a little research you'll find that a lot of what he says simply isn't true. Unfortunately, people don't research.

It will be interesting to see the public's reaction after a debate between him and Obama. I worry that people will be suckered in to voting for Gingrich.

 

[ronito]

It really is kind of amazing how quickly he went from seemingly having it locked up to being knocked horribly, horribly off balance like this.

I don't think Romney ever had a "lock" on it. I mean the general consensus was "He can't seem to motivate the base" I mean look at Iowa Santorum technically beat him. Santorum! He's still the dude to beat, but still he should be leading by a bunch by now instead he seems to be losing steam.

 

[Dude Abides]

Is Mitt really going to stand up against abortion overseas? Is he going to war to enforce it?

That was a reference to the Mexico City Policy/Global Gag Rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City_Policy

 

[RPGamer92]

Will Obama even campaign if he Newt wins the nomination? He should just use all his campaign money to build a giant statue of himself somewhere.

Or even less if Santorum gets it?

 

[ronito]

I dunno I think Newt might be harder to campaign against than Romney.
Romney's corporate raider story has serious legs and with Newt it's sorta hard to pin stuff on him when his party is largely willing to forgive all that.

 

[Chichikov]

I'm flabbergasted that Romney won't release his returns right away.

I think he's just trying to run out the clock on the primary.
The dude's not stupid, he knows he will have to release them, he knows he'll get shit for a week and then we all get bored and move away, he just need want release it when impact him the least, like in April.

 

[empty vessel]

No, I'm pretty sure he believes that investment money is what makes the world go round and taxing it is 1) a disincentive to invest more 2) less money for which the investor to reinvest as he sees fit.

That's a pretty common viewpoint to have, I don't know why you fail to accept it and instead shroud it in your usual nonsense.

Why are you changing Romney's arguments? At first, it was because he objected to something called double-taxation. Now it is because the tax creates a disincentive to invest? Anyway, no, this new Romney reason is not at all a common viewpoint to have. It is a common viewpoint among the economic elite and those who serve them, which is a distinct minority.

I fail to accept it because it is post hoc rationalization. Romney wants capital gains tax to be 0 because he makes most of his income that way. How is this hard to understand? You should look up some psychological literature on post hoc rationalization. We tend to form beliefs first, then we rationalize them. Well, most of us. Some of us work harder than others at trying to subvert that natural psychological tendency.

 

[Crisco]

I think he's just trying to run out the clock on the primary.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/20/romneys-prevent-defense-yielding-big-gains-to-opponents/

lol

 

[Kusagari]

Newt is dangerous as an opponent for one reason--people seem to lap up his one-liners and statements. He yells, stomps around, and has fake outrage. People like that.

If you do a little research you'll find that a lot of what he says simply isn't true. Unfortunately, people don't research.

It will be interesting to see the public's reaction after a debate between him and Obama. I worry that people will be suckered in to voting for Gingrich.

I kind of agree with this. The public at large would probably eat up Newt's fake outrage at questions he doesn't like and how he talks back to the hosts.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

I just want to say that if Romney somehow loses the nomination, I will do my best to find a restaurant in New York that serves crow, and I will photograph myself eating it, and then use it as my avatar through the general.

If you really are going to do that, go for a restaurant that serves dove instead (easier to find in some parts of Chinatown)

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

Shuckin', jivin'

not too bad! this is the best thing obama has done in 3 years

 

[Crisco]

Newt is dangerous as an opponent for one reason--people seem to lap up his one-liners and statements. He yells, stomps around, and has fake outrage. People like that.

If you do a little research you'll find that a lot of what he says simply isn't true. Unfortunately, people don't research.

It will be interesting to see the public's reaction after a debate between him and Obama. I worry that people will be suckered in to voting for Gingrich.

I sort of agree, but come on. No women will ever vote for him. Minorities won't vote for him. He'll win the angry old white guy vote overwhelmingly, but that's about it.

 

[Chichikov]

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/20/romneys-prevent-defense-yielding-big-gains-to-opponents/

lol

Prevent defense gets too much hate, I'll bet you Dick LeBeau wish he kept a safety deep in OT against the Tebows.

Wait, what are we talking about again?

 

[Learn2read]

I kind of agree with this. The public at large would probably eat up Newt's fake outrage at questions he doesn't like and how he talks back to the hosts.

Newt is toxic to anyone who isn't Republican

 

[Manmademan]

I dunno I think Newt might be harder to campaign against than Romney.
Romney's corporate raider story has serious legs and with Newt it's sorta hard to pin stuff on him when his party is largely willing to forgive all that.

His party might be, but independents? not so much.

 

[Stinkles]

I think he's just trying to run out the clock on the primary.
The dude's not stupid, he knows he will have to release them, he knows he'll get shit for a week and then we all get bored and move away, he just need want release it when impact him the least, like in April.

At least this way Dems can know for CERTAIN that his taxes look bad. I don't imagine any surprises, but the asset lists, offshore stuff, missing pieces and general 1%-ness of it. Romney is Goldman Sachs and Lobbyists personified - warping and altering the system to suit the gamed nature of his business, through direct political influence.

And even after years of training and grooming, he is absolutely pathologically incapable of relating to normal people. Achilles heels on both feet.

 

[Amir0x]

I think he's just trying to run out the clock on the primary.
The dude's not stupid, he knows he will have to release them, he knows he'll get shit for a week and then we all get bored and move away, he just need want release it when impact him the least, like in April.

that's exactly what he's doing... he's just doing a hilarious job of explaining why

 

[BotoxAgent]

I just want to say that if Romney somehow loses the nomination, I will do my best to find a restaurant in New York that serves crow, and I will photograph myself eating it, and then use it as my avatar through the general.

I am sure PD knows a few good places to recommend you ;-)

 

[Tim-E]

Newt is poison to independents, minorities and women. In the states that matter, he will lose.

 

[Chichikov]

that's exactly what he's doing... he's just doing a hilarious job of explaining why

The thing is, if it wasn't for the debates and attacks from withing his own party he could've gotten away with it.
I mean, that how Bush dealt with the whole cocaine use issue, he just refused to talk about it and eventually the media got bored and moved on.