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[GG-Duo]

http://www.economist.com/node/21546051

In the past two months Hong Kong has seen a spate of related protests: one against the thousands of expectant mothers who pour in from the mainland to give birth in local hospitals; another involving a march against Dolce & Gabbana, a prominent Italian retailer, when it was thought to be favouring shoppers from the mainland. Though Hong Kong reverted to Chinese sovereignty in 1997, a border still runs between the territory and mainland China, and access from the mainland is restricted. The Hong Kongers’ broad complaint is longstanding: they see hordes of mainlanders putting a strain on public resources. Mainlanders in turn feel that Hong Kongers are arrogant and disloyal to the motherland.

What has changed drastically in the past few years is that the old fear of poor mainland Chinese swamping Hong Kong has been washed away by floods of rich mainland shoppers. Where once Hong Kongers disdained their countrymen from the mainland as Ah Chan, the derisory term for a bumpkin, they are now more likely to hear themselves disparaged as Kong Chan, Hong Kong bumpkins, by mainlanders flush with cash.

The long and short of it is that in the last 5-10 years, the (undemocratic) Hong Kong government, whom are seen as puppets to the mainland, has been running a series of policies that favor the city's economy and real estate development, while ignoring the actual social concerns of the Hong Kong people. (Hong Kong's economic divide between the rich and the poor is amongst the highest in the world.)

The result is a form of colonialism. China has an unlimited amount of funds and lots of people who are looking to spend it - so economically the city is thriving, but actual Hong Kong people born in the city are beginning to be treated as second-class.

The government that they didn't vote for does not give a shit about them: Privatization and corporate monopolies? Yep. China Rail in the downtown despite heavy opposition? They love it. Affordable housing? Nope. And of course, if you are a retailer or mall owner you're going to cater to the rich mainland Chinese customers, not the local citizens.

Add to that is the cultural difference between mainlanders and HKers. HKers are westernized/modernized, whereas visitors from China grew up with a much different set of values, so you'd see stories of parents letting kids poop on the train, people jumping queues at the park, and other unsanitary horror stories. Not everyone is the same, but there's a general view that has been formed.

And now the heat in this pressure cooker is starting to leak: Since the whole tainted milk stuff came out of China, HK's powdered milk has been in high demand. And since the HK Gov relaxed the rules for mainlanders to visit Hong Kong, there has been an increase of pregnant moms who rush hospitals' emergency rooms so their children can be borne in HK and get an HK citizenship plus education. That's why people are starting to call mainlanders as "locusts". And of course, the government isn't doing anything about it.

I was borne in HK and I still have family there. This is probably the lowest state that HK has been since the 70s. It's sad that a scrappy, unique city full of ingenuity and energy has been turned into such a site. Sure, it's rich and very shiny on the outside, but the city is rotten in its core. I wouldn't raise my kids there.

 

[hteng]

alot of rich mainlanders aren't well educated, their manner isn't the best either but they have cash, so they can pretty much do whatever they want.

 

[Jenga]

I had always wanted to go to Hong Kong and live there one day...


sad to see it might not be in the condition i imagined if i ever went

 

[aznpxdd]

alot of rich mainlanders aren't well educated, their manner isn't the best either but they have cash, so they can pretty much do whatever they want.

Pretty much. When I was in Hong Kong for NYE, there were tons of mainlanders lining up outside of all the high end (LV, Chanel, etc.) stores.

 

[Jimrpg]

something wrong with hong kong... it used to be really respectable... people are also ignoring it now in favour of shanghai and singapore as better places to do business and hong kong really doesn't have much to offer except for being close to all the factories in guangdong...

as a hong konger now in australia - its sad.

 

[xbhaskarx]

China has an unlimited amount of funds

Really, unlimited? Why don't they just buy the entire universe?

 

[Jenga]

Really, unlimited? Why don't they just buy the entire universe?

why doesn't china just buy a giant stone they couldn't afford to move?

answer me that christians

 

[lupinko]

Really, unlimited? Why don't they just buy the entire universe?

Shhh, don't give them ideas.

 

[Log4Girlz]

*beams into thread*


CHHHHHHAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNN!

 

[hteng]

Pretty much. When I was in Hong Kong for NYE, there were tons of mainlanders lining up outside of all the high end (LV, Chanel, etc.) stores.

this, you see them mainlanders go to the morning markets buying foods and supplies with their LV bags, it's totally weird.

i was on vacation in South Africa this CNY, we went to visit a diamond store and in there were all mainlanders, they just bought the diamonds on the spot, with cash too!

that said, it's good for business but not really good for the social aspect.

 

[Enkidu]

This is interesting. Would most Hong Kongers have preferred it if the city stayed under British control or do they rather deal with being mismanaged by China?

 

[sfedai0]

In my eyes, there is absolutely no doubt that most would have chosen to have continued to live under UK rule. Half of my family have relocated to Vancouver, as have a lot of other Hk'ers.

 

[cityhunter]

This is interesting. Would most Hong Kongers have preferred it if the city stayed under British control or do they rather deal with being mismanaged by China?

I'm currently in HK. And I can say with confidence that it would be much better if HK is still under British control. Seems like the HK people attitude have gotten worst and getting infected by some of the bad aspects from the mainlanders.

 

[numble]

New York Times says the Mainland has contributed to an economic expansion:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/02/b...n-hong-kong-from-mainlands-boom.html?ref=asia
Bonanza in Hong Kong From Mainland's Boom
By KEITH BRADSHER

HONG KONG — The United States is shrinking its military and debating whether to cut social spending, raise taxes or both. European governments from Greece to Ireland are struggling to maintain payments to the unemployed and retirees. Japan is borrowing heavily to pay for earthquake reconstruction and care for a graying population.

And then there is Hong Kong.

Financial Secretary John Tsang announced a budget for the coming fiscal year that cuts income taxes, corporate taxes and real estate taxes. Household electricity bills will be subsidized, and people living in public housing will receive two months’ free rent.

Education spending will jump 7 percent. Senior citizens will receive an extra month’s pension payment; government hospitals will expand; and 10 billion Hong Kong dollars, or $1.29 billion, will be put in a special fund to help the needy buy medicine.

Perhaps most impressive, the budget is forecast to be roughly in balance – and Hong Kong’s budget forecasters have a reputation for consistently underestimating surpluses. The city, an autonomous region of China ever since Britain handed it back in 1997, has accumulated a rainy-day fund equal to more than a year and a half of government spending.

Hong Kong is running another large budget surplus for the current year, which ends on March 31, despite giving 6,000 dollars to each adult permanent resident.

Economists attribute the bonanza to a series of factors: tight limits on senior citizen spending, no military spending and an economy that grew 5 percent last year, mostly because Hong Kong has cashed in on China’s economic boom.

Mainland Chinese real estate buyers have driven up housing prices as they seek political stability — and, sometimes, safety from mainland tax collectors and fraud investigators. Rising apartment prices have pushed up government revenue from taxes on real estate transactions and from the sale of government land for further construction projects.

Retail sales surged 23 percent here through November of last year, mostly because nearly 100,000 mainland visitors a day come to Hong Kong. Most of them head straight for the stores.

They come not because Hong Kong stores are any nicer — practically every luxury chain now has shops in mainland China. With sky-high rents to pay in a highly congested city, stores also charge more here for a wide range of goods than in the United States and many other countries.

Hong Kong’s attraction instead has been as a tax haven to avoid the 17 percent value-added tax in mainland China, plus steep import and consumption taxes that can add another 10 to 50 percent to the price tag there. The tax savings on a single Louis Vuitton bag can cover round-trip airfare from practically any city in China.

President Obama announced Jan. 19 that the United States would liberalize visa rules for affluent tourists from China and Brazil in particular. Because of a combination of proximity and easy visa rules, Hong Kong attracts nearly 30 times as many heavy-spending mainland Chinese visitors as the United States.

The flood of prosperous mainlanders has provoked considerable angst in Hong Kong, particularly among the young, many of whom struggle to find jobs these days, especially if they are not fluent in Mandarin, a different Chinese tongue from the Cantonese that most residents speak here.

“They don’t like the idea of having all these rich showing off how much money they have, and spending heaps of money on all these luxurious products,” said Paul Tse, the Hong Kong lawmaker who represents the tourism sector.

Populists in Hong Kong have also been assailing the government for being less generous than Western governments to those who are poor, elderly or both. Hong Kong is one of Asia’s most expensive cities, but elderly residents typically receive 1,090 dollars a month, or $140, plus 2,820 dollars a month if they are needy.

K.C. Chan, Hong Kong’s secretary of financial services and Treasury, said that the tax cuts and extra spending in the upcoming budget were aimed at offsetting possible harm to the city’s economy from a slowing global economy. The government is predicting that growth will slow this year to between 1 percent and 3 percent.

Even that level of growth will be possible only because of a 1.5-percentage-point stimulus from the budget, Mr. Chan said.

Cathy Chu, Mr. Chan’s deputy for Treasury, said that the biggest reason for Hong Kong’s fiscal strength was a combination of strong economic growth together with self-restraint in the share of economic output that is spent by the government, which is held to about 20 percent.

 

[speedpop]

something wrong with hong kong... it used to be really respectable... people are also ignoring it now in favour of shanghai and singapore as better places to do business and hong kong really doesn't have much to offer except for being close to all the factories in guangdong...

as a hong konger now in australia - its sad.

Pretty much spot on, unfortunately. Never been to Hong Kong but a friend is from there and still has family over there. He hates having to go back for family visits. Says he feels so alienated.

 

[Hobs]

I think a lot of people who could afford it had immigrated to other countries. My family moved to Canada before 1997 for this sole reason.

I think GG-Duo forgot to mention where the "Dog" term comes from. Recently there was a youtube video of some mainlanders eating on the HK subway trains and some locals started yelling at them. Afterwards some University professor on some Chinese show said something along the lines of, "Hong Kong people are used to being dogs to the British, and even now they are still dogs, not humans."

I feel that it is pretty sad that this is happening, Chinese people love fighting against each other. America has nothing to worry about China will probably implode before they become more powerful.

 

[Neo C.]

This is interesting. Would most Hong Kongers have preferred it if the city stayed under British control or do they rather deal with being mismanaged by China?

This is like asking which one is the lesser evil. HK wasn't democratic under British control except at the very end, HK isn't democratic now. From an ignorant touristic POV, I don't see much difference between the era before and the one after, but it's a fact that my relatives in HK have a harder time now, the job market is pretty harsh.

I said before, the south should go indepedent.

 

[numble]

And since the HK Gov relaxed the rules for mainlanders to visit Hong Kong, there has been an increase of pregnant moms who rush hospitals' emergency rooms so their children can be borne in HK and get an HK citizenship plus education. That's why people are starting to call mainlanders as "locusts". And of course, the government isn't doing anything about it.

Well they are doing something about the pregnancies:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...ay-stop-admitting-foreign-pregnant-women.html

Hong Kong public hospitals may stop admitting foreign pregnant women next year, as an influx of mothers from China giving birth in the former British colony strained facilities and spurred local protests.

The quota for foreigners giving birth in public hospitals this year is 3,400, down from 10,000 in 2011, Cheung Wai-lun, director of hospital groups at the Hospital Authority said in an interview broadcasted by Radio Television Hong Kong yesterday. The quota may be scrapped completely next year, he said.

 

[FreeMufasa]

Sounds like Dubai. Nice on the outside, so many core problems inside.

 

[Timbuktu]

"This city is dying, you know?"

Any HK'er see the 天與地 series around xmas? Pretty good for TVB, it was all the rage when i was back for the holidays and it got banned in China.

This is interesting. Would most Hong Kongers have preferred it if the city stayed under British control or do they rather deal with being mismanaged by China?

I don't think that really is a question, not in my mind anyway. People were worried about how HK would change under China, but what the mainland has been changing far quiicker. HK has always derived its identity of being China and not quite; that came naturally as a British colony. The city has always also depended on what happens across the border.

The main change for me is that HK before 97 had an expiry date, it was about the perpetual present and you couldn't didn't think about the future too much. Like in Wong Kar Wai's movies, it was just a place where people lived in close proximity for a short amount of time, all the while remaining part of the diaspora. Our grandparents generation, would mostly be refugees from China too, from the war, the cultural revolution etc. and our parents generation is really the only one that grew up with HK.

So it is only in the last ten years or so when HK really has a future to think about as a place of permanent residence. That is why there started to be nostalgia and then efforts to preserve elements of HK's past where there never was before.

To me, i'm not sure if the rich mainlanders treat HKers any worst than they treat each other. It is dickensian, dog eat dog world in China and HK is still a very lucky place. it isn't Foxconn, it doesn't ever have to worry about war, doesn't have to serve in the military and the headlines in its papers can sometimes just be a minor traffic accident because the city is pretty uneventful.

That isn't to ignore the incompetence of the government. They react too slowly and are too easily swayed by the big developers. A lot of people i talked to in the holidays spoke quite fondly of Taiwan. Partly because there is democracy, people are more civilized, taxi cab drivers are a lot nicer and they have a sense of identity and culture that isn't under threat (unless there is war of course).

Ideally of course, HK will get its popular vote. What would be sad for me is that HK would probrably lose the traditional script, and if beijing has it their way, cantonese would be on its way out as well. After all, the south has been the base for revolutions in the past, although no one seems to remember that.

 

[numble]

As a traditional tax haven, and laissez-faire capitalist city, I feel like some of the same issues would happen regardless of handover to the PRC. The PRC would still have a burgeoning middle and upper-class and they will have to be somewhere--like hteng said, they'll even go to South Africa and buy up all the diamonds:

i was on vacation in South Africa this CNY, we went to visit a diamond store and in there were all mainlanders, they just bought the diamonds on the spot, with cash too!

Being so close to the Mainland, Mainlanders would still swarm to Hong Kong to avoid the high taxes of Mainland goods. I'm not sure if a putative UK-ruled HK would refuse these Mainlanders who are waving bags of money around.

The real estate bubble/escalation would also occur. Hong Kong has always been a pretty easy place with low restrictions on property purchases, and it's unlikely that sellers/developers would actually turn down Mainlanders wanting to spend their money. Mainlanders are going to the US and most of SE Asia to scarf up property as well, creating bubbles there (I've seen billboards in Southern California advertising ways to "buy your way to a green card" by investing in property development). That of course has an effect on prices, that affect HKers. The government has addressed all the speculation by eliminating (since 2010) property investment as a manner of getting a visa/pathway to permanent residency status.

The pregnancy issue is probably something that would not be as big of a problem, possibly. I don't know what the laws on this issue were like under UK rule, though. I do know many people getting residency status prior to the handover by being refugees from Vietnam, Burma, etc. though.

If the UK still ruled HK, there possibly might have been a worse economic crisis for HK during the Asian Financial Crisis--HK was one of the few that did not have to devalue its currency, in part because the PRC pledged to defend HK's currency with the PRC's foreign exchange reserves.

I think the Economist has it mostly right--much of the issues Hong Kong faces is due to the economic rise of the Mainland. Mainlanders are now pushing costs up, from retail goods, to food and real estate. 6 years ago, the RMB was worth less than the Hong Kong Dollar. Now the RMB has appreciated in value and is worth more than the Hong Kong Dollar. Even with the increase in prices, things have become cheaper for Mainlanders in RMB terms (both because of exchange rates and wealth increasing more rapidly in the Mainland), while things are more expensive for Hong Kongers in terms of HKD.

During UK rule, Hong Kong was a booming developing city, with high rates of growth. Nowadays, however, Hong Kong is a relatively mature economy with only 3-5% growth rates (and predicted only 1-3% increase this year), while the Mainland has had much higher growth rates, with many HKers being incompatible for the new jobs due to language issues.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

I think GG-Duo forgot to mention where the "Dog" term comes from. Recently there was a youtube video of some mainlanders eating on the HK subway trains and some locals started yelling at them. Afterwards some University professor on some Chinese show said something along the lines of, "Hong Kong people are used to being dogs to the British, and even now they are still dogs, not humans."

That video and the events that led up to it, has been an ongoing escalation of things that are happening. Frankly, it's pathetic that the people "placed" in the government in HK has been powerless to do anything right. Just looking at the handling of the budget surplus has been laughable.

 

[cityhunter]

As a traditional tax haven, and laissez-faire capitalist city, I feel like some of the same issues would happen regardless of handover to the PRC. The PRC would still have a burgeoning middle and upper-class and they will have to be somewhere--like hteng said, they'll even go to South Africa and buy up all the diamonds:



Being so close to the Mainland, Mainlanders would still swarm to Hong Kong to avoid the high taxes of Mainland goods. I'm not sure if a putative UK-ruled HK would refuse these Mainlanders who are waving bags of money around.

The real estate bubble/escalation would also occur. Hong Kong has always been a pretty easy place with low restrictions on property purchases, and it's unlikely that sellers/developers would actually turn down Mainlanders wanting to spend their money. Mainlanders are going to the US and most of SE Asia to scarf up property as well, creating bubbles there (I've seen billboards in Southern California advertising ways to "buy your way to a green card" by investing in property development). That of course has an effect on prices, that affect HKers. The government has addressed all the speculation by eliminating (since 2010) property investment as a manner of getting a visa/pathway to permanent residency status.

The pregnancy issue is probably something that would not be as big of a problem, possibly. I don't know what the laws on this issue were like under UK rule, though. I do know many people getting residency status prior to the handover by being refugees from Vietnam, Burma, etc. though.

If the UK still ruled HK, there possibly might have been a worse economic crisis for HK during the Asian Financial Crisis--HK was one of the few that did not have to devalue its currency, in part because the PRC pledged to defend HK's currency with the PRC's foreign exchange reserves.

I think the Economist has it mostly right--much of the issues Hong Kong faces is due to the economic rise of the Mainland. Mainlanders are now pushing costs up, from retail goods, to food and real estate. 6 years ago, the RMB was worth less than the Hong Kong Dollar. Now the RMB has appreciated in value and is worth more than the Hong Kong Dollar. Even with the increase in prices, things have become cheaper for Mainlanders in RMB terms (both because of exchange rates and wealth increasing more rapidly in the Mainland), while things are more expensive for Hong Kongers in terms of HKD.

During UK rule, Hong Kong was a booming developing city, with high rates of growth. Nowadays, however, Hong Kong is a relatively mature economy with only 3-5% growth rates (and predicted only 1-3% increase this year), while the Mainland has had much higher growth rates, with many HKers being incompatible for the new jobs due to language issues.

Yeah, I remember searching for a job here before. From banks to retail, they are really focused on able to speak Mandarin. Especially the banks because they want to focus the mainland market.

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

alot of rich mainlanders aren't well educated, their manner isn't the best either but they have cash, so they can pretty much do whatever they want.

How do they get rich without much education?

 

[Timbuktu]

That video and the events that led up to it, has been an ongoing escalation of things that are happening. Frankly, it's pathetic that the people "placed" in the government in HK has been powerless to do anything right. Just looking at the handling of the budget surplus has been laughable.

I got my $6000 just lask week! I wouldn't say the HK gov is powerless, they're worst by not even trying to serve the people of HK and always so eager to please Beijing and the developers, sometimes without even being asked to.

 

[numble]

A Hong Kong Facebook group put out this ad in the Apple Daily newspaper two days ago (raised HK $1,000,000 to pay for it):

Translation:

Do you want Hong Kong to spend HK$1,000,000 every 18 minutes raising children of parents who are both non-residents?’

Hong Kong people have had enough!

Because we understand that you are victimized by tainted milk powder, we’ve tolerated your coming over and snapping up milk powder;
Because we understand that you have no freedom, we’ve received you on your “Free Trip” to Hong Kong;
Because we understand that your education lags behind, we’ve shared our educational resources with you;
Because we understand that you don’t read Complete Chinese characters (traditional Chinese), we’ve adopted crippled Chinese characters (simplified Chinese) below:
“Please respect our local culture when you come to Hong Kong; if it were not for Hong Kong you’d be all screwed.”

Strongly demand that the government revise the 24th clause of the Basic Law!

Stop the endless invasion into Hong Kong of non-resident pregnant women from the mainland!

Mainland Internet users responded (photo on right):

Translation:

Because you are the son,
Your father gives HK$210,000,000,000 to you each year! (Note: probably a reference to Hong Kong’s HK$210 billion revenue from tourism in 2011, over half of which was contributed by mainland tourists)

Mainland people allowed that!

Because we understand that you don’t have a reliable water supply, we tolerate your using our water.
Because we understand that you don’t have a reliable power supply, we tolerate your using our electricity.
Because we understand that you are still wet behind the ears, we provide a relief of 210 billion dollars.
Because we understand that you don’t read simplified Chinese, we’ve been using complex Chinese characters (traditional Chinese) all along.

“If the mainland hadn’t raised you as their son, you’d have been all screwed.”

Strongly demand that the naïve son should no longer be allowed to tread on the neck (of father)! Cut off water, power and food supply to the son for now!

http://www.ministryoftofu.com/2012/...hina-hks-accusatory-ad-becomes-internet-meme/

 

[AlphaTwo00]

The pregnancy issue is probably something that would not be as big of a problem, possibly. I don't know what the laws on this issue were like under UK rule, though. I do know many people getting residency status prior to the handover by being refugees from Vietnam, Burma, etc. though.

One thing to note, especially in the context that someone mentioned about the whole UK part: for the most part, the British government was really pushing for building infrastructure right up to the point of 97 (the entire airport network wouldn't have gone as well as what's there now). The difference in amount of hospitals and tech that was added overtime pre and post 97 handover is staggering.

 

[Neo C.]

How do they get rich without much education?

Opportunities and relationships. Just like everywhere in this world. I have an uncle who makes good cash just by knowing some guys. Can't say he's in any form educated.

 

[hteng]

A Hong Kong Facebook group put out this ad in the Apple Daily newspaper two days ago (raised HK $1,000,000 to pay for it):

Translation:


Mainland Internet users responded (photo on right):

Translation:


http://www.ministryoftofu.com/2012/...hina-hks-accusatory-ad-becomes-internet-meme/

hahahaha oh wow, that's pretty entertaining.

How do they get rich without much education?

exploitations, you know the counterfeit stuff, child labors, unethical practices. Most of the rich come from the country side where they've got huge farm lands.

 

[Munin]

Here is the video that sparked all this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBvwbshrc4Y&feature=related

Mainlanders arguments like "you are using our water" are fucking retarded. We fucking PAY China for that water. Why are we PAYING for it if we are, as far as Beijing is concerned, the same country?

If anything, the ridiculously large surplus the government is sitting on will probably be used to bail out the mainland on something at some point, instead of, you know, being spent on sensible things like anti-pollution measures and a better housing situation.

This government is one of the most stupendously corrupt, retarded governments in the world. It's openly in bed with developers and conglomerates, steered by Beijing mouthpieces and opportunists who only seek personal profit, meanwhile the democratic parties are tripping over each other in their naive, incompetent attempts at gaining a popular base. Policymakers have no idea what they are doing. Next year the "election" will bring about Henry Tang as a Chief Executive who currently looks like he will surpass Tung Chee-hwa in cluelessness. This is a government that rather hands out 800 US dollars to every citizen to shut them up instead of doing something about the extreme rich / poor divide that exists in this city and is so often swept under the rug.

More and more smaller shops and restaurants are being forced out by landlords who know they can get higher rent from one of the many big chain stores who seek to attract more mainlanders.

Most HK locals would welcome the British back with open arms. And when a study shows this is the case, Beijing starts hyperventilating with childish antics instead of doing something to make HKers feel welcome as a part of China.

This city isn't dying, but it's being hollowed out and replaced with something else.

 

[numble]

The RMB has appreciated.

In 2005, 1000 RMB would only buy you ~$943 Hong Kong Dollars worth of stuff.

Today, 1000 RMB would buy you $1,230 Hong Kong Dollars worth of stuff.

Meanwhile, Hong Kong wages have been relatively stagnant.

While Mainland China wages have increased:

Hong Kong also has no sales tax, while the Mainland has a 17% VAT and higher taxes in general (Hong Kong's max marginal income tax is 15%, while PRC is 45%, Corporate tax is 16.5% vs. 25% in Mainland). This means many goods will be cheaper than in PRC, simply due to tax.

This has basically led to rich Mainlanders coming over to buy things because they are making more money year after year, the RMB is worth more, and because there is lower or no tax.

It benefits businesses but causes prices to go up (especially in property) due to higher demand. But locals do not benefit very much because they are now paying more, but their economic situation has not been improving as fast as their Mainland counterparts (it's of course still a better situation than most Mainlanders, but the middle class and upper middle class Mainlanders are raking in money these days, at least enough to have an effect on the city's economy). It's sort of like a gentrification phenomenon seen in other cities, except it's like the gentrification of an already rich area by nouveau rich who are disdained by the locals for their habits.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

Sort of offtopic but I have been playing WAAAAAAAY too much Civilization lately, my first thought was "oh this is easy to solve". Damn.

 

[numble]

Mainlanders arguments like "you are using our water" are fucking retarded. We fucking PAY China for that water. Why are we PAYING for it if we are, as far as Beijing is concerned, the same country?

Two points--people within China have to pay the government for water and electricity as well, it's not free. I remember paying state-owned companies for water and electricity when I lived in China.

Secondly, it's a silly argument on both sides. Why complain about Mainlanders buying products and property when they are willing to pay for it as well. That's how markets work, Hong Kong retailers and property owners would still be willing to sell to rich Mainlanders whether or not HK was under UK or PRC rule--Hong Kong always styled itself as being one of the most open markets in the world, they would not reject the money.

If anything, the ridiculously large surplus the government is sitting on will probably be used to bail out the mainland on something at some point, instead of, you know, being spent on sensible things like anti-pollution measures and a better housing situation.

Is rent-seeking by the PRC from Hong Kong even allowed under the Basic Law and SAR framework? I think the only time there was a major connection between the finances of the PRC and HK was when the PRC pledged to prop up the Hong Kong Dollar with its currency reserves during the Asian Financial Crisis. I don't think the $8.6 billion surplus to make any meaningful dent for the PRC anyway.

They've announced their spending plans:

Financial Secretary John Tsang announced a budget for the coming fiscal year that cuts income taxes, corporate taxes and real estate taxes. Household electricity bills will be subsidized, and people living in public housing will receive two months’ free rent.

Education spending will jump 7 percent. Senior citizens will receive an extra month’s pension payment; government hospitals will expand; and 10 billion Hong Kong dollars, or $1.29 billion, will be put in a special fund to help the needy buy medicine.

Most HK locals would welcome the British back with open arms. And when a study shows this is the case, Beijing starts hyperventilating with childish antics instead of doing something to make HKers feel welcome as a part of China.

Here is the study:
http://hkupop.hku.hk/english/popexpress/ethnic/eidentity/poll/datatables.html

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a reasonable person that says that it shows that "most HK locals would welcome the British back with open arms."

You would identify yourself as a Hong Kong Citizen/Chinese Citizen/Hong Kong Chinese Citizen/Chinese Hong Kong Citizen

Hong Kong Citizen 37.7%
Chinese Hong Kong Citizen 25.3%
Hong Kong Chinese Citizen 17.8%
Chinese Citizen 16.6%
Other 0.6%
Don't Know/Hard To Say 2.1%

 

[Gr1mLock]

Holy shit that is some pretty deep stuff. Those posters are really telling. I have a friend who was born and raised in Singapore but spent around 3 years in HK and used to tell me about how the locals would get upset at the mainlanders but i didnt think it was quite like this.

 

[shuri]

I really had no idea the hate was so deep between the two sides. I always understood that HK people mostly saw mainlanders as 'simple people from the farms', but I had no idea it was so hardcore..

Very interesting thread, thanks a lot.

 

[Timbuktu]

Would most HKers like to turn the clock back to the 80s, yeah probably, but I don't think HK would rather be back under UK rule, that isn't really a question people would think of. As a colony, I guess most people accept that they have a limited input in politics and most were too busy worrying about the handover. Now, people care a lot more about where HK is heading and to see our own government with our own people screw us over gets a lot more people pissed off.

Having said that, i think seeing the HK/mainlanders conflicts through the spectrum of the internet may be slightly distorted. After all, there is a lot more 'hate' on neogaf about rather trivial topics. The concerns about all the pregnant women flooding into private HK hospitals is valid. But for me it is really about the lack of planning on the government's part when it comes the long term cost in providing education and health care. Having a controlled influx of youth, ones who grow up into HK citizens, isn't a bad thing if properly organised.

What I think HK has to protect though and what I fear is being slowly eroded is the ICAC and the free press. Those are the values that HK has to fight for and to not give up on attaining democracy. Being antagonistic to the mainlanders isn't a solution. I still think that the mainland is changing a lot faster than HK and balance with shift again pretty dramatically in the next ten years.

 

[Mattlikewhoa]

This is rather interesting, I'll be following this thread.

In my eyes, there is absolutely no doubt that most would have chosen to have continued to live under UK rule. Half of my family have relocated to Vancouver, as have a lot of other Hk'ers.

My good friend moved to Canada before the "handover" and HATES visiting family in HK. I would consider his family to be well off (Upper middle class both here and there) but he said that if he didn't have to visit family in HK, he wouldn't have a reason to head back (His father said the same thing).

Here's some real unrest in that area...

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

So, Singapore will be unchallenged in the realm of haughty Chinese?

 

[Crazymoogle]

So, Singapore will be unchallenged in the realm of haughty Chinese?

Haughty? I should ask my wife about that. I guess I don't see the "haughty" part because they have to deal with Malaysia, but I'm not a local...

 

[ChiTownBuffalo]

Haughty? I should ask my wife about that. I guess I don't see the "haughty" part because they have to deal with Malaysia, but I'm not a local...

It was a joke between my Asian friends where we would rank Asian girls based on stuck uped ness.

1. Korea
2. Singapore
3. Hong Kong
4. Japan
5. Taiwan

 

[IceCold]

Man, that's sad. How is Macau doing compared to Hong Kong?

 

[speedpop]

It was a joke between my Asian friends where we would rank Asian girls based on stuck uped ness.

1. Korea
2. Singapore
3. Hong Kong
4. Japan
5. Taiwan

This kinda seems about right, sadly. I'm okay with it. Taiwanese are incredibly laid back considering the norm.

 

[Razorwind]

Man, that's sad. How is Macau doing compared to Hong Kong?

Macau is still the vice city it sells itself to be....Huge tourist front, but the real locals do not really have it that fantastic. Kids grow up wanting to work in casinos/hospitality industry and not bother with college.

They are quite right because there isn't any other job out there that would pay them better.

 

[Razorwind]

So, Singapore will be unchallenged in the realm of haughty Chinese?

Spoke too soon. (Take note the actual dispute happened almost 7 years ago, but the ruckus only ignited last year)
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/22/uk-singapore-curry-idUSLNE77L01020110822

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/singapore/8704107/Singapores-anti-Chinese-curry-war.html

 

[speedpop]

Macau is still the vice city it sells itself to be....Huge tourist front, but the real locals do not really have it that fantastic. Kids grow up wanting to work in casinos/hospitality industry and not bother with college.

They are quite right because there isn't any other job out there that would pay them better.

Rough. Even in Western countries where being the manager of a hotel/casino/whatever is considered low prime depending on the establishment, you have to consider what these kids are thinking about. I love hospitality and always will after working through various bars for a decade, but people treat you like shit within and throughout it. Hopefully they will get through the dark patches.

Spoke too soon. (Take note the actual dispute happened almost 7 years ago, but the ruckus only ignited last year)
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/22/uk-singapore-curry-idUSLNE77L01020110822

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/singapore/8704107/Singapores-anti-Chinese-curry-war.html

Much as I love Szechuan dishes, nothing can compare to a good chili crab dish.

 

[Sealda]

I do not even understand the rage from Hong Kongers about the mainlanders. In Europe we have immigrants murdering and raping, in Hong Kong, you have immigrants kids eating noodles at the subway...This is so ridiculous.

Most mainlanders are btw completely clueless about the wealth and independence of Hong Kong. They think its just another city, that is different in the border cities to HK ofc though. But most mainlanders are jealous of Shenzhen even.

Also, i think the situation regarding Hong Kongs independence is really complicated. I think the thoughts of the 80s and 90s might start erupt again. However, a lot of Hong Kongers seemed to be really like careless about the whole handover. After all they are more worried about their stocks or real estate prices than PRC etc. ALthough, no people can demonstrate as much as Hong Kongers. So maybe its time for it again.

However, the Hu Jintao regime seem to be very apathic to anything involving HK. I think they are just satisfied having it handed over. However, younger mainlanders seems to be more aggressive in their stance.

 

[numble]

Man, that's sad. How is Macau doing compared to Hong Kong?

Macau is generally seen as being more Mainland-friendly.

Macau's GDP has skyrocketed since its handover in 1999:
http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&idim=country:MAC

Due to them opening up the gambling industry, eliminating monopolies, and allowing foreign casinos to come in.

It also experiences the flood of Mainlanders, who come to gamble and do the tourism thing. It surpassed Las Vegas in gambling revenue recently.

Since there's a smaller population (maybe 1/7th size of HK) and a lot of the jobs were already service/gaming (as opposed to those that require higher ed, etc in HK), the flood of Mainlanders can be more directly correlated to more jobs, better economy etc.

Whereas in HK, the economy has improved, it has not been as dramatic as in Macau (but still good compared to most Western nation growth) but its along the lines that resonate with much of the same populist complaints elsewhere this past year (rich getting richer, corporations benefitting) tied with complaints about Mainlanders benefitting more.

 

[Munin]

Two points--people within China have to pay the government for water and electricity as well, it's not free. I remember paying state-owned companies for water and electricity when I lived in China.

This wasn't my point and sorry if it wasn't clear enough. The issue for me is mainlanders claiming that HK "depends" on Beijing's generosity and would wither away if not for the mainland.

I don't think the $8.6 billion surplus to make any meaningful dent for the PRC anyway.

The 8.6 billion figure was Tsang's prediction for a 2011/12 deficit, which he has now revised to a 67 billion surplus. This isn't the first time he has missed the mark. He in fact has done that every fucking year so far, proving again that this government is full of imbeciles.

Also keep in mind that this is merely for the 2011/12 fiscal year and the government is now sitting on a total of 662 billion.

Furthermore it is naive to assume that the Basic Law and SAR framework even matters if it should ever come down to what I described. These laws are interpreted as Beijing sees fit (though obviously they won't be stupidly obvious about it after Article 23 and all that).

Here is the study:
http://hkupop.hku.hk/english/popexpress/ethnic/eidentity/poll/datatables.html

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a reasonable person that says that it shows that "most HK locals would welcome the British back with open arms."

You are right that my phrasing was misleading, and the study does not suggest HKers to want the British back, merely that they consider themselves separate from China. However, given that many consider the British to be the lesser evil with the experiences of the past 10 years, that's what they would clearly prefer. This is of course merely a rhetorical question, I don't think we need to discuss that.

Being antagonistic to the mainlanders isn't a solution.

This isn't even the question. Without doubt, HKers are happy to welcome well-mannered mainlanders who don't simply come to exploit our resources for their own gain, who contribute to the economy and respect the laws and moral and cultural standards of Hong Kong. Just like other foreigners living here.

It also doesn't help the case that Beijing has no sense for diplomacy and reacts like a psychotic toddler whenever something or someone threatens their concept of a united, culturally harmonious country. They could actually gain goodwill with locals if they were more clever. But I hope you are right and things will change in the next ten years.

 

[SRG01]

I do not even understand the rage from Hong Kongers about the mainlanders. In Europe we have immigrants murdering and raping, in Hong Kong, you have immigrants kids eating noodles at the subway...This is so ridiculous.

Most mainlanders are btw completely clueless about the wealth and independence of Hong Kong. They think its just another city, that is different in the border cities to HK ofc though. But most mainlanders are jealous of Shenzhen even.

Also, i think the situation regarding Hong Kongs independence is really complicated. I think the thoughts of the 80s and 90s might start erupt again. However, a lot of Hong Kongers seemed to be really like careless about the whole handover. After all they are more worried about their stocks or real estate prices than PRC etc. ALthough, no people can demonstrate as much as Hong Kongers. So maybe its time for it again.

However, the Hu Jintao regime seem to be very apathic to anything involving HK. I think they are just satisfied having it handed over. However, younger mainlanders seems to be more aggressive in their stance.

You really have to be from Hong Kong to understand. I've visited every few years since '97, and Hong Kong is quickly becoming a place I don't recognize.

Much of it has to do with mainlanders and HKers having drastically different cultures, even amongst Cantonese populations. The stereotype of mainland tourists being rude, uneducated, and rich is generally true in the eyes of Hong Kong.

Also, inflation in Hong Kong cannot be ignored; the influx of mainland money has driven up prices dramatically across the board. This has hurt the already broadening rich-poor gap and it gets worse every day. (To give you an example, you can't even buy a meal on an hour's minimum wage anymore) Even worse is the smuggling of Hong Kong goods to China either for sale or domestic use, since products are often orders cheaper than on the mainland.

Coming from an oil-rich province here in Canada, I have strong opinions on what is happening. Hong Kong is being exploited to benefit the mainland, with very little returns to its citizens.

TThis isn't even the question. Without doubt, HKers are happy to welcome well-mannered mainlanders who don't simply come to exploit our resources for their own gain, who contribute to the economy and respect the laws and moral and cultural standards of Hong Kong. Just like other foreigners living here.

It also doesn't help the case that Beijing has no sense for diplomacy and reacts like a psychotic toddler whenever something or someone threatens their concept of a united, culturally harmonious country. They could actually gain goodwill with locals if they were more clever. But I hope you are right and things will change in the next ten years.

LOL, this made my day. The curious thing is that they haven't changed in over 50 years on this issue.

 

[see5harp]

It is sorta bonkers how rich some Hong Kong citizens compared to the majority. You hop on a train to Cowloon Bay and it's just Barneys, Bathing Ape, and malls with brands I've never even heard of. You go back to Kowloon and it's like filth incarnate with 90% of the population seemingly poor 16 year old high school students and crowded shopping "malls" full of terrible stalls instead of storefronts. My parents' friends like on the top of Victoria Peak and are probably richer than anyone I know in the U.S. They have drivers (none of them drive), live in maids, and memberships to all 3 country clubs in H.K., as well as one on Macau (we played golf at every one of them).