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[Kazerei]

This is really sad. My family immigrated to Canada a year after I was born, but I've returned to Hong Kong every 2-3 years to see my relatives. It's a great city and a fun place to visit, and I've thought about working there for awhile (I do have permanent resident ID), but I'd much rather live in Canada. The social and political issues are getting increasingly distressful, and while taxes are much lower, the cost of living is so high that I wouldn't actually make that much more money in Hong Kong.

 

[numble]

The 8.6 billion figure was Tsang's prediction for a 2011/12 deficit, which he has now revised to a 67 billion surplus. This isn't the first time he has missed the mark. He in fact has done that every fucking year so far, proving again that this government is full of imbeciles.

Also keep in mind that this is merely for the 2011/12 fiscal year and the government is now sitting on a total of 662 billion.

No, I wasn't clear. My $8.6 billion figure was in US dollars. 8.6 billion US dollars ~ 67 billion HKD.

Why would the PRC need that 8.6 billion when it normally throws down stimulus packages of over half a trillion around? Will 8.6 billion really help to "bail out" an economy with a GDP of over $7 trillion? Even $90 billion wouldn't go very far.

You are right that my phrasing was misleading, and the study does not suggest HKers to want the British back, merely that they consider themselves separate from China. However, given that many consider the British to be the lesser evil with the experiences of the past 10 years, that's what they would clearly prefer. This is of course merely a rhetorical question, I don't think we need to discuss that.

It's still misleading. Look at the poll responses. 59.7% identify with some kind of Chinese citizenship. 37.7% identify as Hong Kong Citizen. Even if ALL 37.7% that identify as Hong Kong Citizen want British rule, that is not "most HK people." The poll has nothing to do with British rule and you are extrapolating A LOT from it.

 

[numble]

Even worse is the smuggling of Hong Kong goods to China either for sale or domestic use, since products are often orders cheaper than on the mainland.

I really don't see how this is a bad thing for Hong Kong. Money that normally would be spent in the Mainland, resulting in VAT and GST taxes going into Mainland coffers, is instead diverted into Hong Kong. There are two sides to the issue of Mainlanders flooding to HK to purchase goods--all that money is going into Hong Kong, which is one of the reasons for the huge budget surpluses. That surplus looks like its going to be spent on a raft of public services, according to the New York Times:

Financial Secretary John Tsang announced a budget for the coming fiscal year that cuts income taxes, corporate taxes and real estate taxes. Household electricity bills will be subsidized, and people living in public housing will receive two months’ free rent.

Education spending will jump 7 percent. Senior citizens will receive an extra month’s pension payment; government hospitals will expand; and 10 billion Hong Kong dollars, or $1.29 billion, will be put in a special fund to help the needy buy medicine.

Yes, it also causes inflation, which sucks, but I think Hong Kong is doing pretty well in the scheme of things when you look at other Western areas and their stagnation and budget deficits. Arguing about what to do with an overflowing treasury, a year after the government handed every resident $800 US, is one of those "good problems."

 

[AlphaTwo00]

You really have to be from Hong Kong to understand. I've visited every few years since '97, and Hong Kong is quickly becoming a place I don't recognize.

Much of it has to do with mainlanders and HKers having drastically different cultures, even amongst Cantonese populations. The stereotype of mainland tourists being rude, uneducated, and rich is generally true in the eyes of Hong Kong.

Also, inflation in Hong Kong cannot be ignored; the influx of mainland money has driven up prices dramatically across the board. This has hurt the already broadening rich-poor gap and it gets worse every day. (To give you an example, you can't even buy a meal on an hour's minimum wage anymore) Even worse is the smuggling of Hong Kong goods to China either for sale or domestic use, since products are often orders cheaper than on the mainland.

Coming from an oil-rich province here in Canada, I have strong opinions on what is happening. Hong Kong is being exploited to benefit the mainland, with very little returns to its citizens.

Agreed. At this point, I'm thankful for my parent's decision when they chose to leave, and frankly don't see a point in going there other than visiting relatives. For the 20 something who has a degree out of the 8 universities there, competition is absolutely insane, never mind fighting jobs with mainlanders. The competition also pushed salary down, I can't find more recent data, but your average starting salary for a fresh grad is 1K a month in the post-SARS period, and my understanding is that it hasn't budged much.

The underlying issues that are brewing in Hong Kong, specifically for certain segments of the population, is actually approaching the likes of countries in Europe. The irony is that it's not due to the government not having money, but having too much and not wanting to do anything that actually can help people.

 

[SRG01]

I really don't see how this is a bad thing for Hong Kong. Money that normally would be spent in the Mainland, resulting in VAT and GST taxes going into Mainland coffers, is instead diverted into Hong Kong. There are two sides to the issue of Mainlanders flooding to HK to purchase goods--all that money is going into Hong Kong, which is one of the reasons for the huge budget surpluses. That surplus looks like its going to be spent on a raft of public services, according to the New York Times:

Yes, it also causes inflation, which sucks, but I think Hong Kong is doing pretty well in the scheme of things when you look at other Western areas and their stagnation and budget deficits. Arguing about what to do with an overflowing treasury, a year after the government handed every resident $800 US, is one of those "good problems."

That's mostly incorrect. Hong Kong has no sales tax and most of the money is going towards big-dollar items/businesses (ie. not local businesses/industries). Influx of mainland money does not benefit the average citizen.

The problem with the surplus, as mentioned already, is that they projected as massive deficit beforehand. The entire HK government is incompetent. Handing out lump sums is a very obvious example of this. It smacks of vote buying and an inability to plan for the present and future. We went through the same thing here in oil-rich Alberta and now we're sitting deep in deficit.

Agreed. At this point, I'm thankful for my parent's decision when they chose to leave, and frankly don't see a point in going there other than visiting relatives. For the 20 something who has a degree out of the 8 universities there, competition is absolutely insane, never mind fighting jobs with mainlanders. The competition also pushed salary down, I can't find more recent data, but your average starting salary for a fresh grad is 1K a month in the post-SARS period, and my understanding is that it hasn't budged much.

The underlying issues that are brewing in Hong Kong, specifically for certain segments of the population, is actually approaching the likes of countries in Europe. The irony is that it's not due to the government not having money, but having too much and not wanting to do anything that actually can help people.

The hell? $1k HKD a month? Is that even livable?

Oh, and not to mention that real estate in Hong Kong is absolutely disgusting. The same Chinese housing bubble is going through Hong Kong, and you can see it in New Territories quite well.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

Oh, and not to mention that real estate in Hong Kong is absolutely disgusting. The same Chinese housing bubble is going through Hong Kong, and you can see it in New Territories quite well.

If that number holds, no, not at all.

I remember back when I was till in University, Hong Kong Bank was hiring, and their salary listing was three times less than your average job for CS in anywhere in Canada and US. I looked, laughed, and walked away.

 

[numble]

That's mostly incorrect. Hong Kong has no sales tax and most of the money is going towards big-dollar items/businesses (ie. not local businesses/industries). Influx of mainland money does not benefit the average citizen.

The problem with the surplus, as mentioned already, is that they projected as massive deficit beforehand. The entire HK government is incompetent. Handing out lump sums is a very obvious example of this. It smacks of vote buying and an inability to plan for the present and future. We went through the same thing here in oil-rich Alberta and now we're sitting deep in deficit.

When someone buys an iPad in the Mainland, they pay at least 17% VAT, the store must also pay 25% of its income in business tax, plus miscellaneous other taxes, such as income tax for its employees. These taxes go to the PRC treasury.

If that person chooses to either go to Hong Kong to buy an iPad, or buy an iPad that someone purchased in Hong Kong and smuggles into China (tax effect is the same as grey market sellers in China operates in the shadow untaxed economy), there is no sales tax, but the business still pays a 16.5% income tax, taxes for employees, plus other taxes, such as property, which China does not have). This money goes to the Hong Kong treasury.

Hong Kong's treasury then spends it on local citizens, whether it is a lump sum payment, or the proposed services I quoted above, it IS a benefit to people in Hong Kong.

 

[Munin]

When someone buys an iPad in the Mainland, they pay at least 17% VAT, the store must also pay 25% of its income in business tax, plus miscellaneous other taxes, such as income tax for its employees. These taxes go to the PRC treasury.

If that person chooses to either go to Hong Kong to buy an iPad, or buy an iPad that someone purchased in Hong Kong and smuggles into China (tax effect is the same as grey market sellers in China operates in the shadow untaxed economy), there is no sales tax, but the business still pays a 16.5% income tax, taxes for employees, plus other tsxes, such as property, which China does not have). This money goes to the Hong Kong treasury.

Hong Kong's treasury then spends it on local citizens, whether it is a lump sum payment, or the proposed services I quoted above, it IS a benefit to people in Hong Kong.

No, the government doesn't spend it on anything useful, which really shouldn't be hard to see. And stuff like "electricity subsidies" will end up in the pockets of landlords, not tenants.

Or take for example the issue of a recently announced waste incinerator they are planning to build in a environmentally precarious spot. They could go for another spot that would be cheaper and less environmentally harmful (Tuen Mun) or even go for an already available greener, but more somewhat more expensive solution altogether. But no.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

No, the government doesn't spend it on anything useful, which really shouldn't be hard to see. And stuff like "electricity subsidies" will end up in the pockets of landlords, not tenants.

Or take for example the issue of a recently announced waste incinerator they are planning to build in a environmentally precarious spot. They could go for another spot that would be cheaper and less environmentally harmful (Tuen Mun) or even go for an already available greener, but more somewhat more expensive solution altogether. But no.

Oh so you'd actually prefer it if no one bought goods from Hong Kong. Gotcha.

 

[SRG01]

When someone buys an iPad in the Mainland, they pay at least 17% VAT, the store must also pay 25% of its income in business tax, plus miscellaneous other taxes, such as income tax for its employees. These taxes go to the PRC treasury.

If that person chooses to either go to Hong Kong to buy an iPad, or buy an iPad that someone purchased in Hong Kong and smuggles into China (tax effect is the same as grey market sellers in China operates in the shadow untaxed economy), there is no sales tax, but the business still pays a 16.5% income tax, taxes for employees, plus other taxes, such as property, which China does not have). This money goes to the Hong Kong treasury.

Hong Kong's treasury then spends it on local citizens, whether it is a lump sum payment, or the proposed services I quoted above, it IS a benefit to people in Hong Kong.

We're getting into an economic discussion here, but this is the following that is universal for all economies: Money spent on small businesses and economies benefit the local population more than (multi-nat) corporations. Small businesses employ more people and keep money within the local system.

Unfortunately, small business in HK is being overshadowed by big dollar businesses. The economic effect of, say, LV and H&M is a lot less than a local clothing retailer.

Government income from taxation is irrelevant; much of HK's government dollars aren't making it to the average resident, as much as that $800 handout would make you believe. Social services are almost non-existent on the island, and health care is a problem for anyone with low or fixed income.

Oh so you'd actually prefer it if no one bought goods from Hong Kong. Gotcha.

Where the hell did anyone actually say this? What are you actually addressing?

 

[numble]

We're getting into an economic discussion here, but this is the following that is universal for all economies: Money spent on small businesses and economies benefit the local population more than (multi-nat) corporations. Small businesses employ more people and keep money within the local system.

Unfortunately, small business in HK is being overshadowed by big dollar businesses. The economic effect of, say, LV and H&M is a lot less than a local clothing retailer.

Government income from taxation is irrelevant; much of HK's government dollars aren't making it to the average resident, as much as that $800 handout would make you believe. Social services are almost non-existent on the island, and health care is a problem for anyone with low or fixed income.



Where the hell did anyone actually say this? What are you actually addressing?

The Mainland mothers popping out babies I can understand--they aren't residents, don't pay taxes, but their babies will be getting education and health benefits from HK taxpayers. Hopefully this will be addressed, with quotas or higher fees or whatever.

Complaining about people spending money in Hong Kong, or the irrelevancy of a treasury overflowing with money, I don't really understand. They obviously are spending some money on local goods, since goods from big dollar businesses don't seem to suffer as much from inflation, from what I see:

The main attraction for big ticket goods being bought in HK is that they often carry the cheapest worldwide price--no sales tax and absurdly low business tax will do that, offering huge margins to the seller. When Apple sells an iPad for $500 in US, its paying at least 35% tax on it, on top of state income tax, and the customer must add sales tax--when it sells it in HK, it only pays 16.5% tax, and no sales tax for the customer. That's why there is no inflation on those prices--the reason people buy in HK is because it is cheap.

Inflationary pressure does occur on food, local goods and services, and property though. And if you're attributing that to Mainland money, then they must be spending it on those things, which do benefit the local economy.

If you think the government isn't spending the money wisely, that's not a reason to bemoan the influx of Mainland money--that's a reason to complain about the operation of the government. Decreasing the influx of Mainland money is not going to help the government do better at spending for social services (and it might in fact make it more hard for the government to spend, since it would have less money).

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

Why is it rude to eat noodles on the train? Unless it's something fermented.

 

[RSLAEV]

Forget noodles on the train I demand someone explain this pooping on the train business!

 

[Timbuktu]

Why is it rude to eat noodles on the train? Unless it's something fermented.

On the MTR system, food has never been allowed and there are signs that quite clearly say that. I think the problem has been that people can be quite hostile when they ar told they can't do whatever they want.

I agree with numble and to add to the rant, i just don't understand how property owners can keep squeezing small businesses by raising rents at a ridiculous rate. It must be getting so tough for shops and restaurants and that i guess is a big part of the inflation and what keep wages down. Then i guess only big chain stores can afford those rents and small shops are forced to close or move everytime their lease runs out. Everyone in the city are working for the developers at the end.

 

[Canuck76]

I don't know about this crap. I lived for about a year in Southern China and would visit Macau and HK every month or so. It was always vastly different and the Macau and specifically the HK people seemed to think they were superior to their mainland counterparts, with their money and engilish ability. Is it so bad that mainlanders are doing better and can visit? I do understand the issues of manners (one of my HK friends had a fb pic of some kid taking a pee in one of the mtr hall ways) and people having their kids there just to get all the benefits but HK does have to be integrated somewhat. Is that such a bad thing?

 

[Emily Chu]

Forget noodles on the train I demand someone explain this pooping on the train business!

Kids pooping in a bag I suppose....

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

it's really weird running into super rich mainlanders

on a 18 hour train ride, I was bunking with 3 businessmen. we talked about many things, but the conversation always ended up discussing natural resources in canada. they were interested in creating potash mines in saskatchewan. yes, they had the money to build a fucking mine! I am friends with millionaires, but these guys were by far the richest people I have met. yet they weren't even in 1st class and they certainly didn't have the typical manners of the rich (not to say they were rude, just normal chinese men). reminds me of Titanic where the nouveau rich are looked down upon by the old monied class.

e: on a train ride, I would probably prefer pooping in a bucket in an aisle to actually pooping in the bathroom. train bathrooms are ... disgusting. and I have pooped in some really, really dirty rural outhouses. ones made out of clay....

 

[GG-Duo]

I don't know about this crap. I lived for about a year in Southern China and would visit Macau and HK every month or so. It was always vastly different and the Macau and specifically the HK people seemed to think they were superior to their mainland counterparts, with their money and engilish ability. Is it so bad that mainlanders are doing better and can visit? I do understand the issues of manners (one of my HK friends had a fb pic of some kid taking a pee in one of the mtr hall ways) and people having their kids there just to get all the benefits but HK does have to be integrated somewhat. Is that such a bad thing?

The issue has been tolerable for many years, but the local social issues and the recent pregnancy rush simply bubbled up all of that angst.

Ultimately, the problem is with the HK government, not necessarily integration with China/Mainlanders. (Although prior to the handover, it's been verbally said that HK's supposed to take 50 years to integrate, and it's supposed to be an autonomic region during the mean time, but it's happening a lot more quickly.)

HKers know it's inevitable, but it's just really ugly for people living there right now.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

I don't know about this crap. I lived for about a year in Southern China and would visit Macau and HK every month or so. It was always vastly different and the Macau and specifically the HK people seemed to think they were superior to their mainland counterparts, with their money and engilish ability. Is it so bad that mainlanders are doing better and can visit? I do understand the issues of manners (one of my HK friends had a fb pic of some kid taking a pee in one of the mtr hall ways) and people having their kids there just to get all the benefits but HK does have to be integrated somewhat. Is that such a bad thing?

There is a difference between integration and assimilation, this isn't integration, and the vocal statements from mainland netizens is "follow our lead now, beg, and do what we tell you, and we'll let you stick around".

Also, it's not about doing better and can visit, it's about using up things to a point that it leaves local people high and dry. The maternity situation is only the tip of the iceberg on what resources are drained. Where else would you have to pre-pay for a hospital bed two months in advance, just to ensure you MAY get room? If this had happened anywhere else in the world, we'd be laughing our heads off.

 

[TheKaeptain]

For me, this thread is really fascinating for some reason.

 

[numble]

Copycat posters from Mainland Chinese against migrant workers:
http://www.chinahush.com/2012/02/02/hong-kong-full-page-ad-against-mainland-pregnant-women/

Do you want the migrant population of Beijing to continue to grow?

Beijing people have had enough of it!

Beijing has already inhabited 20 million migrant population and accepted 478,000 come-along children.

But! You still damage Beijing culture, mess up the order, push up the housing price, bring your children born in excess of one-child policy here to intensify the college entrance examination; you benefit from Beijing but still defame Beijing like trash; please do us a favor, go back home build your own town before coming here.

Strongly demand the government to amend the law!

Stop the massive growth of migrant population in Beijing.

Do you want to pay 4 billion yuan per year subsidizing migrant population?

Shanghai people have had enough of it!

Because you come for gold digging, we end up hosting over 17 million migrant population; because you settle down here, we end up taking 380,000 come-along children; because you want to be good to your parents, we end up having almost 160,000 migrant senior people.

But! We also have to endure your damage to our culture, the finger pointing by your hometown fellows, and all those uncivilized behavior by you and your hometown fellows.

Strongly demand the government to amend the law!

Stop the massive growth of migrant population in Shanghai.

Do you want Guangzhou to have 1/3 of its population to be migrant people?

Guangzhou people have had enough of it!

Because you want to work here, we end up having much more aimlessly drifting population; because of your rushing in for money, our traffic is out of order; because you settle down here, we don’t feel safe any more; we have to stand the fact that you take up 3 bus seat with one person, that you release yourself on the public transport and talking loud on phone, and that you only need to pay 600 yuan for a river view apartment (probably special package for migrant population).

Strongly demand the government to amend the law!

Stop the blind invasion of migrant population into Guangzhou.

et cetera.

There is a friendly poster for Shenzhen (which has only existed for 30 years and it is almost an all non-local population).

 

[Zyzyxxz]

I was borne in HK and I still have family there. This is probably the lowest state that HK has been since the 70s. It's sad that a scrappy, unique city full of ingenuity and energy has been turned into such a site. Sure, it's rich and very shiny on the outside, but the city is rotten in its core. I wouldn't raise my kids there.

I agree, I see my cousins and he sends his daughter to an international school so she can learn in 3 languages (Cantonese, Mandarin, English). And she is only like 6, she's a smart girl but I don't know what's HK going to be like her 10 years from now. Competition is just ridiculous.

alot of rich mainlanders aren't well educated, their manner isn't the best either but they have cash, so they can pretty much do whatever they want.

Yeah many mainlanders who are rich did so because they or their father had a factory and the West came and said build stuff for me. So to reinvest they take that money and do what they do best. Build a grander and bigger factory and thus the 1% is created like that but they are socially disgusting at times. Wealth doesn't buy class as the saying goes.

I had always wanted to go to Hong Kong and live there one day...
sad to see it might not be in the condition i imagined if i ever went

Same, I went back last November and it changed so much since I was there about 4 years ago. Last time was the 5th time I've been and I think it may be the last because it's no longer a city I romanticize about especially seeing the social problems now.

I don't know about this crap. I lived for about a year in Southern China and would visit Macau and HK every month or so. It was always vastly different and the Macau and specifically the HK people seemed to think they were superior to their mainland counterparts, with their money and engilish ability. Is it so bad that mainlanders are doing better and can visit? I do understand the issues of manners (one of my HK friends had a fb pic of some kid taking a pee in one of the mtr hall ways) and people having their kids there just to get all the benefits but HK does have to be integrated somewhat. Is that such a bad thing?

Well I am assuming you studied or taught English for a year? I think it's pretty bad that mainlanders are coming and bringing all their money thinking they can buy status. I think it's bad that they proudly bring their RMB but happily evade taxes or cheat their kids into an education system in a way they shouldn't.

 

[Zzoram]

Every Hong Konger who could just moved to Canada, since it's the most similar to Hong Kong (given that it's history as a former British colony, and retained the British government system) and has a massive Cantonese speaking population (the biggest outside China I believe).

 

[maomaoIYP]

Every Hong Konger who could just moved to Canada, since it's the most similar to Hong Kong (given that it's history as a former British colony, and retained the British government system) and has a massive Cantonese speaking population (the biggest outside China I believe).

Are you kidding me? I have relatives who moved there before 97 to escape the uncertainty. My uncles who were white collared workers in HK ended up selling chop suey in Quebec. There were barely enough jobs there for them, not to mention the racism. All of those who went there ended up basically unemployed and living off savings. They stayed the number of years required for a obtain a Canadian citizenship before going back to HK to work.

 

[numble]

Well I am assuming you studied or taught English for a year? I think it's pretty bad that mainlanders are coming and bringing all their money thinking they can buy status. I think it's bad that they proudly bring their RMB but happily evade taxes or cheat their kids into an education system in a way they shouldn't.

How do you feel about Hong Kongers/Taiwanese changing the landscape of the San Gabriel Valley in the last 30 years? Or Vancouver? Change happens, especially when people in a country become affluent and want to do better for their children. In the 80s and 90s, rich Hong Kongers were flying to US/Canada/Australia/UK to give birth so that their kids could have dual citizenship. My current landlord gave birth to her kids in Canada, and they are now over there for college because of government subsidized education and health care, despite paying basically no taxes, and they plan on coming back after graduation.

Hong Kong has always structured itself as a laissez-faire capitalist libertarian tax haven, inviting to foreigners, with low tax rates and lax immigration standards, including generous visas (unless you are poor--you can live here for decades as a domestic helper from Philippines/Indonesia but get no residency, but if you park $1.3 million US here, you've basically secured your residency). Its just that in the past, it was always foreigners taking advantage of these deals (limits on Mainland visits also helped).

 

[Zyzyxxz]

How do you feel about Hong Kongers/Taiwanese changing the landscape of the San Gabriel Valley in the last 30 years? Or Vancouver? Change happens, especially when people in a country become affluent and want to do better for their children. In the 80s and 90s, rich Hong Kongers were flying to US/Canada/Australia/UK to give birth so that their kids could have dual citizenship. My current landlord gave birth to her kids in Canada, and they are now over there for college because of government subsidized education and health care, despite paying basically no taxes, and they plan on coming back after graduation.

Hong Kong has always structured itself as a laissez-faire capitalist libertarian tax haven, inviting to foreigners, with low tax rates and lax immigration standards, including generous visas (unless you are poor--you can live here for decades as a domestic helper from Philippines/Indonesia but get no residency, but if you park $1.3 million US here, you've basically secured your residency). Its just that in the past, it was always foreigners taking advantage of these deals (limits on Mainland visits also helped).

I'll be honest I don't mind HK or Taiwanese people since they tend are smaller populations but Chinese people are too numerous. I know it's not a fair way to judge them but I'll come out and say that I have a general disdain of the Chinese due to all the bullshit beliefs they have, many of which I grew up with.

I dont want to generalize but it happens often enough that I stereotype my own people.

- generally have no consideration for other people
- concept of face is worth more than money to them
- want to be Western and #1 so bad (hence the iPhones, BMWs, Ambercrombie and Fitch) they love to the concept of being #1 and therefore buy those brands they believe are #1.

As for the SGV landscape, those who came during my parents generation built up the San Gabriel area to be a community where we could establish our culture and families. Now these mainlanders come and buy up all the property driving up prices, let their kids live here and get free education while not paying income taxes, and don't add any social value to our community.

So yes my point of view is irrational, illogical, biased but I am living here day to day and I can't help how I feel. I don't hate all mainland Chinese folks just 90% of them. I wouldn't care if there just weren't so many of them.

 

[numble]

As for the SGV landscape, those who came during my parents generation built up the San Gabriel area to be a community where we could establish our culture and families. Now these mainlanders come and buy up all the property driving up prices, let their kids live here and get free education while not paying income taxes, and don't add any social value to our community.

So yes my point of view is irrational, illogical, biased but I am living here day to day and I can't help how I feel. I don't hate all mainland Chinese folks just 90% of them. I wouldn't care if there just weren't so many of them.

But you know there's a lot of white resentment for Hong Kongers/Taiwanese taking over these Californian towns, right? Its not like these areas were undeveloped before the Asians moved in with their money and desire for McMansions, tearing down perfectly good houses in order to have their mini-Mansions, replacing old businesses with shops with Chinese signboards.

http://asianweek.com/052496/LittleTaipei.html

Monterey Park was generally considered a liberal, tolerant community in the ‘60s and early-’70s, but the sudden influx of Chinese immigrants created a backlash.

The ‘80s were characterized by racial tension and political turmoil fanned, in part, by the efforts of local leaders with nativist leanings to declare English as the official language and require English-only business signs.

Amid the statewide slow-growth and anti-tax movement, Monterey Park was caught in a political whirlwind, as old-time residents fought what they perceived as the growing threat of the new immigrants to their old town.

 

[Grimmy]

Every Hong Konger who could just moved to Canada, since it's the most similar to Hong Kong (given that it's history as a former British colony, and retained the British government system) and has a massive Cantonese speaking population (the biggest outside China I believe).

I moved to Canada (Toronto, to be exact) and absolutely hated it. It just found life there to be beyond boring, and the public transportation is one of the worst in the developed world. Hong Kong has a lot of problems, but it still beats living in Toronto. That said, I wouldn't go back to live in Hong Kong either. Which is why my life right now suits me fine - Bangkok in the winter, Berlin in the summer.

Man, that's sad. How is Macau doing compared to Hong Kong?

Way worse. It's a lifeless, soulless husk of a city, geared towards cheap Chinese gamblers. The Venetian is a monstrosity of cheap fake-looking "glamour".

Pretty much spot on, unfortunately. Never been to Hong Kong but a friend is from there and still has family over there. He hates having to go back for family visits. Says he feels so alienated.

Don't understand this sentiment. As much as I hate actually living in HK, I love visiting the place for a week or so. The food is excellent, the shopping is fantastic (only New York is comparable), and I do have lots of friends still. It's still a lot of fun to go out drinking here (and the partying is crazy!)

 

[hirokazu]

I find HK citizens to be well within their rights to demand laws be changed to prevent their government having to support these birth vacationers, but at the same time, I find many people from or in Hong Kong to be unfairly vicious and hateful of anything and anyone from the mainland. Now that many in China have as much and often many times more wealth than the average HK citizen, the animosity seems to run both ways and I find that saddening.

I have visited HK twice and the second time I have found people there to become increasingly arrogant and rude, not unlike the so-called "uneducated bumpkins" from China. There are no orderly lines on the MTR, and people just rush in front of you to get on board; and the customer service experience in retail is often poor. I have wondered if this is the general response to influx of vacationing mainlanders who bring their poor manners with them, but either way, I think HK should also have some self reflection rather than stoop to being just as rude as the mainlanders that they hate.

Just my outsider view anyway. Mainlanders and HK citizens ought to treat each other with respect and find a solution, but instead both sides are just trading insults and spurning further animosity. Oh well.

 

[FStop7]

This government is one of the most stupendously corrupt, retarded governments in the world. It's openly in bed with developers and conglomerates, steered by Beijing mouthpieces and opportunists who only seek personal profit, meanwhile the democratic parties are tripping over each other in their naive, incompetent attempts at gaining a popular base. Policymakers have no idea what they are doing. Next year the "election" will bring about Henry Tang as a Chief Executive who currently looks like he will surpass Tung Chee-hwa in cluelessness. This is a government that rather hands out 800 US dollars to every citizen to shut them up instead of doing something about the extreme rich / poor divide that exists in this city and is so often swept under the rug.

More and more smaller shops and restaurants are being forced out by landlords who know they can get higher rent from one of the many big chain stores who seek to attract more mainlanders.

Most HK locals would welcome the British back with open arms. And when a study shows this is the case, Beijing starts hyperventilating with childish antics instead of doing something to make HKers feel welcome as a part of China.

This city isn't dying, but it's being hollowed out and replaced with something else.

Sounds like it's time for a Communist Revolu-- wait

 

[Socreges]

Very interesting thread. I didn't know this stuff was going on.

In my eyes, there is absolutely no doubt that most would have chosen to have continued to live under UK rule. Half of my family have relocated to Vancouver, as have a lot of other Hk'ers.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chinese immigration to Greater Vancouver has been predominantly from Hong Kong, right?

On another note: Richmond (just outside of Vancouver), with a population of over 200,000, is now majority Chinese. I think it's the only city in North America that can claim that. I'd be surprised if there was another city of that size in the world, outside of China, that is majority Chinese. It's really fascinating to go around the city because even though it's just 51% or so Chinese, you'd think it was 90%. It basically has its own society and economy within the GVRD where many, many Chinese people are able to live their lives without ever having to speak a word of English. I have no idea where all the white people are... it's bizarre.

 

[industrian]

alot of rich mainlanders aren't well educated, their manner isn't the best either but they have cash, so they can pretty much do whatever they want.

Mainlanders get a bit of money - enough for a vacation - and they have a massive entitlement complex whenever they travel and expect their travel destination and the people there to adapt to them and their expectations.

I once got on a train in Taiwan and their was a big mainlander family on a vacation. I've never seen so many noisy, arrogant, rude fucks in my entire life. One woman was slopped out on an entire seat section (enough for 3 people) and had their plastic bags take up another seat section. When my girlfriend asked them politely if we could sit there, she just brushed us off as if we weren't there. We got the conductor to force her to move her shit, and she just complained about having to sit straight and move her bags as if she was Rosa Parks or some shit.

How do they get rich without much education?

The way a lot of Chinese folks have got rich is because they (or a close family member) had a trade (making clothes, furniture, cleaning, etc) and during the last 10 years of economic boom started a business, expanded, and got a lot of money. Since they're not formally educated and since they probably had to have a "fuck you" attitude to succeed in building their business this carries over to whenever they decide to flaunt their wealth.

I find HK citizens to be well within their rights to demand laws be changed to prevent their government having to support these birth vacationers

I'm surprised the Chinese folk don't go to Hawaii to have their kids like some Korean people do.

 

[ShinobiFist]

Going to follow this thread closely. Saving up to move there by next year or two. I live in Harlem now, and is bad around here as well. And as a light skin Latino, I feel like I'm going to be caught in a nasty crossfire in HK. Especially in the job market. Still going, regardless what happens.

 

[Crazymoogle]

Very interesting thread. I didn't know this stuff was going on.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chinese immigration to Greater Vancouver has been predominantly from Hong Kong, right?

When Hong Kong was being transferred they were definitely the biggest percentage - easier to immigrate while you're part of the commonwealth, I imagine - but now apparently mainland China is the biggest influence.

I'd be surprised if there was another city of that size in the world, outside of China, that is majority Chinese.

Singapore? (74% Chinese). Surprisingly Wikipedia does have an article on overseas Chinese demographics, which is pretty interesting.

But yes, the Richmond-Chinese connect is very unusual. I mean, I still remember the Office Depot with the dominant-chinese logo...

 

[Divvy]

Are you kidding me? I have relatives who moved there before 97 to escape the uncertainty. My uncles who were white collared workers in HK ended up selling chop suey in Quebec. There were barely enough jobs there for them, not to mention the racism. All of those who went there ended up basically unemployed and living off savings. They stayed the number of years required for a obtain a Canadian citizenship before going back to HK to work.

Your anecdotal evidence aside, there are tons of people from HK and mainland who come to China.

"about 30,000 Hong Kongers emigrated annually to Canada, comprising over half of all Hong Kong emigration and about 20 percent of the total number of immigrants to Canada."

The PRC has also taken over from all countries and regions as the country sending the most immigrants to Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chinese_immigration_to_Canada#Immigration_in_the_21st_Century

 

[Sealda]

Do we have any indication how PRC would vote in free elections if they got the chance? I think it would be very similar to the HK. At-least the non-factory workers would vote for the freest batship economy.

 

[Neo C.]

I find HK citizens to be well within their rights to demand laws be changed to prevent their government having to support these birth vacationers, but at the same time, I find many people from or in Hong Kong to be unfairly vicious and hateful of anything and anyone from the mainland. Now that many in China have as much and often many times more wealth than the average HK citizen, the animosity seems to run both ways and I find that saddening.

I think people often underestimate the relevance of the language. Cantonese people love to chat in Cantonese and they hate to switch to Mandarin, especially when the mainlander doesn't show appreciation for it.
This attitude isn't exclusive to HK, in any other region there's a certain "my country/city, my language" sentiment.

I have visited HK twice and the second time I have found people there to become increasingly arrogant and rude, not unlike the so-called "uneducated bumpkins" from China. There are no orderly lines on the MTR, and people just rush in front of you to get on board; and the customer service experience in retail is often poor. I have wondered if this is the general response to influx of vacationing mainlanders who bring their poor manners with them, but either way, I think HK should also have some self reflection rather than stoop to being just as rude as the mainlanders that they hate.

Ironically HK people were known for being rude even during the British time. They just find someone who is even more rude than them.

 

[Zyzyxxz]

But you know there's a lot of white resentment for Hong Kongers/Taiwanese taking over these Californian towns, right? Its not like these areas were undeveloped before the Asians moved in with their money and desire for McMansions, tearing down perfectly good houses in order to have their mini-Mansions, replacing old businesses with shops with Chinese signboards.

http://asianweek.com/052496/LittleTaipei.html

Oh yeah for sure and I've seen it myself and I can sympathize with them on the whole McMansion thing but there's little I can do about it and I suppose at this point its like there's no going back though.

 

[Socreges]

When Hong Kong was being transferred they were definitely the biggest percentage - easier to immigrate while you're part of the commonwealth, I imagine - but now apparently mainland China is the biggest influence.



Singapore? (74% Chinese). Surprisingly Wikipedia does have an article on overseas Chinese demographics, which is pretty interesting.

But yes, the Richmond-Chinese connect is very unusual. I mean, I still remember the Office Depot with the dominant-chinese logo...

Thanks. Not at all surprised that mainland China is the biggest influence now. I guess there's a good mix of Cantonese-speaking HKers and Mandarin-speaking mainlanders.

I didn't really count Singapore since it's always been majority Chinese (since it's been settled).

 

[lupinko]

This thread is actually a good read and offers very interesting insight to this situation.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

Very interesting thread. I didn't know this stuff was going on.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chinese immigration to Greater Vancouver has been predominantly from Hong Kong, right?

If you were to ask for both Vancouver and Toronto 5-10 years ago, maybe. It's definitely the other way around.

Thanks. Not at all surprised that mainland China is the biggest influence now. I guess there's a good mix of Cantonese-speaking HKers and Mandarin-speaking mainlanders.

Depending on where you are, Mandarin speaking mainlanders far outpace Cantonese speaking HKers. I'm more likely to go to a restaurant and get Mandarin than Cantonese, which then I'd end up defaulting to English.

I think people often underestimate the relevance of the language. Cantonese people love to chat in Cantonese and they hate to switch to Mandarin, especially when the mainlander doesn't show appreciation for it.
This attitude isn't exclusive to HK, in any other region there's a certain "my country/city, my language" sentiment.

It's not "hate to switch" as much as won't speak it fluently to be usable, even if they knew it. It wasn't something that was taught in the education system, so how would everyone switch over? It's like getting parts of Canada to speak french at the drop of a hat. It ain't going to happen, not right away.

When the handover happened, and all the government heads in HK were to speak in both Mandarin, Cantonese and English at a flip of a switch, it was painful to see how bad they were in anything that clearly wasn't their native tongue, with the best example being the Ngong Ping 360 incident.

 

[numble]

http://topics.scmp.com/news/china-n...nland-mums-look-West-after-Hong-Kong-backlash

Mainland agencies that arrange for expectant mothers to give birth overseas are predicting a surge in those going to North America as Hong Kong tightens its policies following a public backlash.

A staff member at a Shenzhen-based agency said the number of mothers wanting to have their babies delivered in the United States had been rising - "almost double the number in the first several months of last year".

He attributed the rise, in part, to higher fees for delivering babies in Hong Kong and a government cap on the number of non-locals who can give birth in the city. Also, he claimed it was becoming easier to obtain visas to the US.

The fees for non-local mothers giving birth in Hong Kong have surged in the past year. Some Shenzhen agencies are now charging around 200,000 yuan (HK$245,000) to prepare mothers-to-be, including helping them clear customs and make arrangements to stay and receive care in Hong Kong, as well as getting proper birth documents. This is more than many quotes given for arranging births in the US.

Of the 200,000 yuan, 100,000 is used to secure one of the limited hospital beds, 90,000 covers medical expenses and 10,000 covers the agency fee. Another staff member with the agency said the price of delivering babies in Hong Kong fluctuated month to month. By comparison, the price in the US was relatively stable, between 150,000 and 200,000 yuan.

Canada is another option, and the agency generally charges more than 300,000 yuan to arrange for births there, as "Canadian citizens enjoy the best welfare". But he added that his agency had suspended the service due to a high rate of visa applications being denied.

One agency that specialises in helping mainlanders deliver babies in Saipan, a US island, charges just 70,000 yuan for round-trip tickets to the island, medical services and two months' food and accommodation. The island has not required visas for Chinese tourists since 2009, and the agency claims people born there automatically get US citizenship.

The staffer said several hundred mainland women had flown to the island each year since 2009 to have their babies.

A Shanghai father who recently returned from Washington, where his wife is preparing to give birth to their first baby, said he did not consider having the baby in Hong Kong. He said there was much discrimination in the city and it wasn't close enough to Shanghai to be convenient. Also, he has a US work visa and his wife got a visiting visa. They also have relatives in Washington.

The father said he would spend up to 300,000 yuan to ensure his baby was born in the US, where he would have more options as he grew up.

 

[IceCold]

I moved to Canada (Toronto, to be exact) and absolutely hated it. It just found life there to be beyond boring, and the public transportation is one of the worst in the developed world. Hong Kong has a lot of problems, but it still beats living in Toronto. That said, I wouldn't go back to live in Hong Kong either. Which is why my life right now suits me fine - Bangkok in the winter, Berlin in the summer.




Way worse. It's a lifeless, soulless husk of a city, geared towards cheap Chinese gamblers. The Venetian is a monstrosity of cheap fake-looking "glamour".



Don't understand this sentiment. As much as I hate actually living in HK, I love visiting the place for a week or so. The food is excellent, the shopping is fantastic (only New York is comparable), and I do have lots of friends still. It's still a lot of fun to go out drinking here (and the partying is crazy!)

That's sad because Macau has everything to be the opposite of that. I just watched the No Reservations on Macau and it seems like such an interesting and unique fusion of the East and West.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

http://topics.scmp.com/news/china-n...nland-mums-look-West-after-Hong-Kong-backlash

The father said he would spend up to 300,000 yuan to ensure his baby was born in the US, where he would have more options as he grew up.

Wow.

To put in perspective: 47K US.

 

[numble]

That's sad because Macau has everything to be the opposite of that. I just watched the No Reservations on Macau and it seems like such an interesting and unique fusion of the East and West.

Macau GDP.

I don't know much about Macau, but a 4-fold increase in GDP (since 1999) is usually not a bad thing.

I'll ask some more knowledgeable people over lunch and see what they think.

 

[Grimmy]

That's sad because Macau has everything to be the opposite of that. I just watched the No Reservations on Macau and it seems like such an interesting and unique fusion of the East and West.

There's nothing fusion-y about Macau. The biggest art scene it has is Cirque du Soleil And the place is now overrun with mainland (and sometimes Russian) hookers.

 

[IceCold]

There's nothing fusion-y about Macau. The biggest art scene it has is Cirque du Soleil And the place is now overrun with mainland (and sometimes Russian) hookers.

I mean the Portuguese colonial architecture and Macanese cuisine and stuff.

 

[SRG01]

There's nothing fusion-y about Macau. The biggest art scene it has is Cirque du Soleil And the place is now overrun with mainland (and sometimes Russian) hookers.

The only thing redeemable about Macau is the casinos, and even then they're kind of creepy. It's like Asia's version of Vegas, but not.

 

[Jimrpg]

Pretty much spot on, unfortunately. Never been to Hong Kong but a friend is from there and still has family over there. He hates having to go back for family visits. Says he feels so alienated.

me too - i haven't been back for 10 years now (im 30). there's nothing interesting there, its a complete backwater... and no one seems to be making a name for themselves to really reinvigorate the rest of the population... you know to put hong kong back on the map...

 

[numble]

Monday Editorial in People's Daily (Mainland China government mouthpiece)
[As translated by China Media Project at Hong Kong University]

http://cmp.hku.hk/2012/02/08/18706/

Hong Kong and the Mainland Should Treat Their Differences Leniently
People’s Daily
February 6, 2012

Of course there are differences between Hong Kong and the mainland — historical, cultural, economic, legal and lifestyle differences . . . There are differences big and small, including such things as whether food can be eaten on the subway. But who would have guessed that a mainland girl eating noodles on the Hong Kong MTR would become a major story, that a video of the incident feverishly shared on the web during the Chinese New Year holiday would spark debate and even a crossfire of insults?

Differences have long been the focus of rapid integration and common interests between [Hong Kong and the mainland]. At the start of reform and opening thirty years ago, for example, differences in economic development drove Hong Kong’s manufacturing sector to shift production across to Guangdong almost overnight. The “three plus one trading mix” (三来一&#34917, [custom manufacturing with designs, materials or samples supplied], which for a long time was the way of doing things, is already outmoded. But the model set down the first stage of economic reforms. Investment in the mainland from Hong Kong tops [that from all other territories and countries outside the mainland], and our brethren in Hong Kong can be written into the history books for their contributions to opening and reform.

It’s also difference that has, since opening and reform, driven mainlanders from all provinces and cities to travel to Hong Kong, . . . enriching the territory’s economy by strength of numbers and strength of spending. Today, while many people in Hong Kong voice anger over the way travelers from the mainland have upset their peaceful lives, they will no doubt recognize the contribution these travelers have made to the Hong Kong economy.

Difference is a double-edged sword. Difference can attract, and difference can divide.

Hong Kong has clear regulations against eating on the subway, and Hong Kong people generally don’t see people digging into a meal on the subway — so seeing a young girl from outside [the territory] eating noodles [on the MTR] was an offense to the eye. In mainland China there are no such rules, and the question of whether or not one can eat [on the subway] is a grey area. [The thinking on the mainland is that] children are precious, and not a moment is to be lost when they are hungry, so how can eating a little something cause people to fume with rage? . . . So the bad blood boiled over the noodle issue, words flying, and this became the focus of attention in both Hong Kong and the mainland.

This isn’t actually such a big deal. Surely, it’s not just about Hong Kong and the mainland, and between Hong Kongese and Hong Kongese, between Beijinger and Beijinger, you can also find differences that are the cause of tension. Put-off onlookers can say, with a slight smile: “Little Sister, in the Hong Kong subway eating is not permitted. You’ll be fined.” And being cautioned, the other can say, before putting the food away: “I’m sorry, my child is really hungry.” With a degree of leniency over differences, [tensions] can pass with a smile.

But if the response to seeing a girl eating noodles is sharp denunciation of how “mainlanders” are, and the person attacked fires back about how “you Hong Kongers” are, the tables are turned quickly and issues become serious. A bowl of noodles can kick up animosities old and new. And how do we clear our heads of the tensions and misunderstandings from the differences between our two regions that then come to the surface?

Escalating differences to an even higher plane, one person in mainland China used extreme speech to label those who objected to the eating of noodles [on the MTR] as “colonial dogs” (殖民地的走&#29399 . . . And in Hong Kong, some likened the eating of noodles [by mainlanders on the subway] to “locusts”, something that is, if not a case of whipping up hatred with ulterior motives, certainly itself an uncultured act. This is a cruel logic of death to those who resist (逆我者&#20129 — [in other words, a form of intolerant extremism] — itself not too far off from the abyss of fascism.

Fortunately, I have noted many moderate and reasonable voices amid the sea of commentary. Internet user “Deep-Mountain Wizard” (深山之&#24043 wrote: “I am a Hong Konger, born and raised, and I can say that Hong Kongese do not discriminate against their [mainland] brethren. The war of words has stemmed from differences in values. Some from the mainland aren’t familiar with the rules in Hong Kong. In the eyes of the Hong Kong people they’ve broken the law, and that’s why the reaction has been so strong. Actually, all they need to do is admit when they’re in the wrong, saying they didn’t know the rules, and that will be the end of it. There are good people and bad in both Hong Kong and the mainland, and I hope this isn’t the cause of bad feeling.”

A domestic media in mainland China wrote: “Piling on more abuse won’t cause Hong Kong to change its regulations because of criticism from the mainland. It will only cause others to laugh at us. When you go out, please just respect the local laws and regulations . . . ”

Treating differences with leniency demands a show of understanding on the part of the home team and respect from the visiting team. Understanding and respect are both cultured responses. The world isn’t a fairy tale, of course, but when understanding and respect are lacking, ready-made channels, like administrative offices, can be turned to for complaint resolution. . . Today, as Hong Kong and the mainland grow ever closer, the differences aren’t limited to “eating noodles” [on the subway]. How administrative offices in the two regions face up to differences, how they encourage tolerance toward differences (引导善待差&#24322, and how the people on both sides learn to treat differences, this is a test of the wisdom and character of both regions.