It's more complicated than that. Shi'a muslims don't mind depicting Mohammed as much as Sunnis do:
http://www.webcitation.org/63BsneOUJ
SHOCKING NEWS: Tweets About Prophet Muhammad Spark Saudi Death Threats
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It's more complicated than that. Shi'a muslims don't mind depicting Mohammed as much as Sunnis do:
http://www.webcitation.org/63BsneOUJ
Pollux
Member
Wow, best post of the thread.
But would others agree, that from an outsiders perspective, it appears as if some Muslims place Muhammad on the same level as Allah?
True, but even then it is far more restrictive than many other religions, such as us Catholics, as Stump mentioned.
Dabookerman
Member
I couldn't care less, I dislike pretty much most religions so.
Plus, The Religion of Peace is a funny nickname.
It's a bit like The Religion of Enlightenment.
You've got to admit though, they do have the worst loonies.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Other Muslim countries, including the world's most populous Muslim country, do not have similar configurations. The situation in Saudi Arabia is truly unique. You might find particular elements, and certainly this author's tweets would have went over poorly virtually everywhere in the North African / Arab / Persian Islamic world (I suspect South-East Asian Muslims would be comparatively more chill), but Saudi Arabia exists on its own plane entirely in terms of how it approaches law and morality.
That's my point.
Like I said, I'm not ignoring that there are militant fundamentalists with way too much power in the ME, but don't blame a billion people for the actions of a comparative few...
That's all I'm saying.
Stump with the truth. Also, religion of peace!
Jewish aren't rioting in the streets of Tel Aviv or New York when Iranian newspaper parody them and demean them and dehumanize them. Odd.
Mandatory Hitch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7aS7m3odqI
The problem is unique to Islam.
Jewish aren't rioting in the streets of Tel Aviv or New York when Iranian newspaper parody them and demean them and dehumanize them. Odd.
Mandatory Hitch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7aS7m3odqI
The problem is unique to Islam.
I do. Nothing serious happened.
You are correct. But the depictions are not just .. depictions. They are humiliating or derogatory in nature. But yeah, a reason be it legitimate or not is enough for the loonies to go overboard. Now lets just replace Prophet Muhammad with say .. Ram, Shiva, Hanuman (Hinduism) and depict them in a derogatory cartoon and pretty sure loonies will also come out for blood.
This isnt exclusive to Islam, it applies to all those religions that have yet to have their religious figures mocked/exploited.
VariantX04
Loser slave of the system :(
Good luck bro, hope you get what you want and soon.
Thanks man. Fingers crossed!
I don't really see anyone in this thread blaming a billion people. There have been some discussions of how this is viewed in Islam, but the religion, not the adherents of it.
This may seem stupid, but what about when the Simpsons mocked Ganesha, the Indian God?
Sorry, I really don't know much about Hinduism.
Mohammed is not on the same level as God.
To say that is blasphemous in itself within the religion.
Radical muslims freak out over any criticism of Mohammed since he is the religion's most important figure due to "finding" and reverting a good portion of society back into Islam. (Yes you read that right there is a reason I said "back into" Islam.)
Pollux
Member
Just throwing this out there...I would be willing to bet (I don't have stats and I don't have time to look now) that there are FAR fewer radical Christians who would call for someone's death over this type of thing or anything for that matter, than there are Muslims.
But there would be far fewer loonies than in this example. Not just that, but I don't think people would be calling for your head for doing, as you mentioned earlier, pissing on a statue of Jesus.
All I'm saying is that more Muslims take it more seriously than pretty much anyone else.
You don't think those other Religions have had their figures mocked? Have you ever watched The Simpsons?
I know for the case of some South Asian, Persian, and even Arabian countries the lines between tribal law, and religious law get blurred and it becomes a brutal amalgamation of the two.
Not sure if Ganesha as the same amount of followers as the other major deities and if it was covered by the mainstream media? Did it go unnoticed?
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
You're not wrong that from a contemporary standpoint Shi'a have been less opposed to depictions of Mohammed per se, but historically Shi'a also found it objectionable--although I can't point to any cases of historically famous Muslims being punished or executed for it--and the broader point about idolatry and blasphemy and the very thin lines about how Muslims are proscribed to think and talk about the Prophet and God remains true.
But they don't have to be what most would consider derogatory. From what I've seen, the mere act of depiction necessarily implies derogatory. This is not the case for other religions.
Um, yikes. It might seem to you that other religions haven't had their religious figures mocked, etc. Because when that happens, it doesn't make the news. Because there aren't these insane overreactions.
Which is sort of the point.
Pollux
Member
I'm not saying he's on the same level as God, but he's treated with the same reverence. From an outsider's perspective.
and
Well don't Muslims consider people like Abraham and Moses to be Muslim. But then Jews fell away because of the Scribes/Pharisees etc. and then, in their view, Christians just went out to left field with the Trinity thing? So the "back into" does make sense from the Muslim POV.
Depending on how you wanted to argue, you could argue that Islam is the youngest or oldest of the Abrahamic religions. Not in the sense that it was founded by Muhammad, but re-revealed by him after a ton of time in between the original message and the corruption of that message, etc. Not the point of this thread. If you want to talk about it more PM me.
Whenever I criticize religion I'd like to emphasise that its the religion itself, not the people of it that I criticize. If there are deeply religious people just going about their day and ignoring stuff like this, that's fine, good for them. But you have to remember that it's the source material for the religion itself that teaches the bad stuff, and harms people with its intolerance, prejudice and intentional vagueness.
Pollux
Member
Well, he's one of the most widely worshipped Hindu deities, and it wasn't covered because it wasn't an issue. Unlike this crap in the OP. As far as I can tell, the journalist tweeted about a man to man conversation with Muhammad. Where is the harm in that? Where is the blasphemy in that?
Not necessarily. Many times its been twisted over the centuries, or people just listen to their Pastor (or in the case of Islam...Imam?) and don't look into the message themselves. Yes, I know that there are millions of Muslims who can recite the Quran by heart but that doesn't mean the UNDERSTAND what they're reciting.
None of these religious texts can be taken at face value. Especially some of the laws in the Quran which apply very well to 7th Century Arabia, not so much to the 21st Century.
And even if they were derogatory remarks there should have been no controversy.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
It varies wildly by country; in Pakistan formal law is fine, but many regions have informal legal / tribal traditions. Only Saudi Arabia operates on even remotely the same level of puritanical suppression of alternate morality, individuality, or individual liberty.
Islam has quite a bit of pluralism in-built (the split between Shi'a and Sunni occurred comparatively early in Islam's lifetime, the mystical traditions/Sufi/Dervishes were all reasonably well integrated, to say nothing of the four Madhhab) so it's very difficult to say that all Muslim countries operate the same.
As you correctly note, even if Islam was the same everywhere, you'd still have the major cultural divides between Arab/Bedouin culture, North African culture, Persian culture, Continental Asian cultures, and South-East Asian cultures as a start and even that is generalizing severely...
Not to mention Isa (Jesus)
It's perfectly acceptable for there to be controversy. When someone says something controversial, they have no more the right to say it than others to refute or object to it. The issue isn't the controversy, it's the threats of violence and use of coercive force of law by a brutal and tyrannical state to punish the statements in an obscene and unconscionable way.
Not really....
You have to consider what was going on in Arabia when the Quran was written. If you consider that you'll understand why some things that would be objectionable by today's standards were written in it.
The issue here is ignorant people being stupid as fuck and not getting with the program. It's 2011 for Christ's sake. People first and foremost need to think and not blindly follow some book without using any kind of critical thinking.
Pollux
Member
Not to mention Isa (Jesus)
Touche.
Right. That was what I was attempting to get across in my short but ultimately non-descriptive statement.
Pollux
Member
I've asked this a couple times and nobody responded. So...this.
Well, if they use critical thinking they would become atheist.
I use critical thinking and i'm not an atheist.
evil solrac v3.0
Member
fixed for you. caveman didn't even concern themselves with bullshit like this. all they did was try to survive the next day.
Thus the wink at the end. So, arguably, he's right.
Don't forget failing at TV shows and showing anger at being stereotyped by car insurance companies.
And your critical thinking lead you to what theistic beliefs exactly?
Ravensmash
Member
Wow, that's really sad to be honest.
Is this over-reaction less of a religious issue, but more of a cultural one relative to Saudi Arabia?
Is this over-reaction less of a religious issue, but more of a cultural one relative to Saudi Arabia?
VariantX04
Loser slave of the system :(
UPDATE: A Saudi newspaper reports that Malaysian authorities have apprehended Kashghari and are now handing him over to Saudi authorities. Well, fuck...
Choke on the Magic
Banned
Pretty sure he's of iranian descent so you get 2 guesses.
evil solrac v3.0
Member
i thought the Malasyans were a bit more relaxed? why would he flee to another muslim country?
He went to fucking Malaysia???? Terrible decision.
Actually, considering Saudi influence, anywhere on Earth would have been a bad idea.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
That's... the most absurd extradition I've heard about in years.
VariantX04
Loser slave of the system :(
The Arabic newspaper article reporting his capture has some of the most despicable comments I've ever seen. Literally everyone going "OFF WITH HIS HEAD" to set an example for the unbelievers. This is really heavy, depressing stuff.
Ravensmash
Member
:[
Is there any record of what he actually tweeted? Was it literally the hypothetical meeting?
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
Fucking hell, It's not even an insult! Some of the people quoted in that article deserve a very hard slap.
I'm studying Liberalism at the moment, and it's interesting to see John Locke viewing religious intolerance as an idiotic concept; essentially promoting freedom of religion in the 17th century! I wonder what the reasons are for Europe having largely gone down the road of having secular law and secular government, while this did not occur in some other parts of the world?
I'm studying Liberalism at the moment, and it's interesting to see John Locke viewing religious intolerance as an idiotic concept; essentially promoting freedom of religion in the 17th century! I wonder what the reasons are for Europe having largely gone down the road of having secular law and secular government, while this did not occur in some other parts of the world?
perfectnight
Banned
Poor guy. Censorship is a terrible thing.
Exclamation-One
Member
Here are the offensive tweets in question:
VariantX04
Loser slave of the system :(
Added to OP. Thanks.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
In order--the Catholics were pretty good at separating the sacred and the secular mostly, then The Protestant Reformation really set the grounds for secular government and strong democracy... and finally The Enlightenment.
I assume you're doing Polisci or Sociology/Anthropology? Max Weber is the prototypical writer on how Protestantism shaped the modern Democratic-capitalist social paradigm in Europe. Who else... let me see... Peter Berger's "Christianity and Democracy: The Global Picture" in Journey of Democracy Vol 15 Number 2; After Jihad by Noah Feldman is a pretty good treatment of the challenges with Islam and Democracy... Alexis de Tocqueville's "Democracy in America" is one of the seminal political philosophy reads on this subject, although he's focusing on America's unique religious culture versus Europe's.
(In the event you're just starting on your degree, you'll get to this stuff later! Spoiler alert! tee hee)
Discotheque
Banned
I'm not condoning censorship or any of this but really...he should have known not to post any of that shit up on the internet.
It's not even a matter of challenging the authority to inspire others to rise above and all that....this is literally poking a Lion in the face with a stick until he eats your ass.
It's not even a matter of challenging the authority to inspire others to rise above and all that....this is literally poking a Lion in the face with a stick until he eats your ass.
I'm not going to discuss my spiritual/religious beliefs because it's probably too abstract for me to discuss here.
Also, I doubt any of you actually care anyway.
RustyNails
Member
There's nothing offensive about those tweets, goddamn what in the saudi fuck.
There's not a single person on earth who thinks Prophet Muhammad is divine and there's not a single Muslim on earth that bows down to Muhammad. No Muslim, especially from the wahabi thought, prays for Muhammad. It's clear to every Muslim that Muhammad was a mere mortal. Where the hell is the outrage coming from?
There's not a single person on earth who thinks Prophet Muhammad is divine and there's not a single Muslim on earth that bows down to Muhammad. No Muslim, especially from the wahabi thought, prays for Muhammad. It's clear to every Muslim that Muhammad was a mere mortal. Where the hell is the outrage coming from?
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