If you're arguing against doing what police and emergency ops telling you what to do...
Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest
- Thread starter Dram
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If you're arguing against doing what police and emergency ops telling you what to do...
Devolution
Member
They can't reasonably order it but it's never a suggestion in the manner you're implying. You're hilarious.
Fuck heeding warnings. I'm in this rich boring neighborhood and I gotta power trip.
What are you talking about? The police chief said it was a suggestion. The word does in fact have a meaning and I'm sure you know what it is. If the man was not ordered and legally obligated to not interact with the kid, how does that prevent a scenario in which he uses force to defend himself? The implication from yourself and others is specific, and it seems to be that ignoring this suggestion invalidates any possibility he legally acted in self defense. Am I wrong?
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Is it possible that it is related to the intent behind Mr. Zimmerman's action of trailing, engaging, and finally shooting Mr. Martin?
If you say no, why? If you say yes, why?
If you say yes, then let's talk probability. Not necessarily "the ultimate truth", mind you, but probability. If I ask you to give a certain percentage from 0 to 100, how much will you give to this is a sign of Mr. Zimmerman's intent?
The Orlando sentinel article quoting from the police chief and the incident report. I cannot find it easily using my phone but it's definitely in the thread.
Of course it's possible. Again assigning probability in any meaningful way assumes we can examine all possibilities. We don't have details. Why do you think the racist explanation is most likely?
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Found it
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...illed-sanford-police-20120308,0,1380794.story
Dammit journalists. Get yo facts straight
Or you could give an educated guess based on the known facts. Known facts do include a basic knowledge of human behavior gained through a life of conscious and unconscious observation in case you were unaware.
I don't know what dichotomy you think I'm assuming. I clearly stated that I know full well there could be any number of other possible scenarios. I simply asked for you to give your own humble opinion, which of the two possibilities I presented seems more likely?
How is "that depends" not a valid answer? I don't know which one is more likely. You and others can convince yourselves you do if you'd like.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
What do you consider as "all possibilities"?
Also, what do you think about the fact that Mr. Zimmerman is actually enjoying complete freedom even though his motives and all the facts, as you say, surrounding this event have not yet been ascertained?
Additionally, you don't really think that the sentence "they always get away" does not imply that Mr. Zimmerman is not viewing a certain group of people in a less than favorable way?
If you can not make a determination of likelihood, perhaps it's not the evidence that's lacking.
Responding "It depends" is contrary to the question. I asked you to respond given only the evidence at hand so your answer can't be dependent on any unknown information. Given only the known what do you believe is more likely? Not what do you believe actually happened. Not what would various pieces of additional info lead you to believe.
Only using what is known. Which of the two scenarios I presented does logical analysis favor?
We don't have all the pertinent details, but we also aren't the ones with the keys to the jail cell. The investigation is being carried out and we'll know pretty shortly. The initial look apparently, at least from the police's perspective, didn't convince them a crime was committed. Was that the right decision? Let's find out.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Also, from the article:
"If Trayvon fought back, said Jackson, that's to be expected. He was being ordered around by someone who was not a police officer, was not in uniform and was not in a patrol vehicle."
Wow, I am not an American and thus am not familiar with this Neighborhood Watch thing, but they are not part of the police force? If so, how come they have the power to order around civilian people.....? Is it a right granted to them by law or something.......?
"If Trayvon fought back, said Jackson, that's to be expected. He was being ordered around by someone who was not a police officer, was not in uniform and was not in a patrol vehicle."
Wow, I am not an American and thus am not familiar with this Neighborhood Watch thing, but they are not part of the police force? If so, how come they have the power to order around civilian people.....? Is it a right granted to them by law or something.......?
They have zero authority. Their entire role is to observe and report. The fact that this guy even had a gun at all is bad enough... but the fact that he called police and acted after he basically didn't approve of their answer of "wait for officers to arrive" should set off red flags for everyone reading this.
They have no power. At all. They are volunteers who choose to watch the area they live in and generally only report to the actual police anything they believe to be out of the ordinary.
Edit:Beat.
Why do you pick the scenarios I can choose from? This is a meaningless exercise. What are you trying to accomplish? Those limited details would not produce a determination worth anything. We know there are details that once known completely remove the need to try and balance probabilities. Did he approach with his gun out? Where was the car in relation to the boy? Did witnesses hear the man interacting with the boy aggressively?
Think about the races involved.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Holy shit.
So let me get this straight: this guy has no legal authority whatsoever to order anyone--the furthest extent that the law allows this guy do is to observe and report. And despite this:
1. He nonchalantly ignore the "suggestion" from the officers of the law, the party that actually have legal power to order, inquire, and arrest, and decide to engage Mr. Martin anyway? Even if he assume Mr. Martin is doing a suspicious activity (although I have no idea how just walking on your own neighborhood can constitute as "suspicious"), he basically has no legal right to do what he did, correct?
2. The fact has been cleared that Mr. Zimmermen engaged Mr. Martin first even though he has no business doing so from a legal standpoint, correct? And this while carrying a gun?
This when combined with the "they always get away" strongly, strongly suggest that Mr. Zimmermen approached Mr. Martin with a hostile intent. Not necessarily hostile in a "I'm gonna shoot you" kind of way, but hostile in a "Hey you criminal scum" even though Mr. Martin did not do anything that might suggest him as a criminal other than... taking a walk in his own neighborhood.......???
So many red flags, so many WTF, and even after this event ended with a dead young man, Mr. Zimmermen is still allowed to enjoy full freedom?
That's really, really, really fucked up.
The_Hitcher89
Member
Over here, the neighnourhood watch seems to be split between two types of people. Weird old men peering into other people's gardens with a pair of binoculars, and gossipy old women who are more concerned with other people's problems than their own. Thankfully I've yet to read about any of them murdering anyone
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
So, anyone still want to defend the guy?
Oh wait, KHarvey16 still needs more proof... lol
Fact: Perp calls 911, has gun
Fact: Was "suggested" to stay in the car until police arrived
Fact: Confronted kid on street
It's impossible he can claim self defense. IMPOSSIBLE
Oh wait, KHarvey16 still needs more proof... lol
Fact: Perp calls 911, has gun
Fact: Was "suggested" to stay in the car until police arrived
Fact: Confronted kid on street
It's impossible he can claim self defense. IMPOSSIBLE
Keith?
HAL_Laboratory
Member
I can't believe this shit. How is the guy still not in jail? He should be getting his anus pounded in prison right now instead of being "captain" (I mean wtf, seriously?) of the neighborhood crime watch. What a winner this guy is.
Roger Danish
Member
Dude.
Devolution
Member
That's the second one in this thread =/. Wishing rape on someone, yes even prison rape, is disgusting guys.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
This is bullshit, I hope something gets done about it
krypt0nian
Banned
I can't believe the neighborhood watch guy killer wasn't arrested.
This honestly has my stomach turning. Repulsive.
Agree 100%
EDIT: HAL_Laboratory, seriously consider recanting that. It's a path to a ban.
This honestly has my stomach turning. Repulsive.
Agree 100%
EDIT: HAL_Laboratory, seriously consider recanting that. It's a path to a ban.
Where Harvey really misses the point is he is under the impression that approaching someone at night in a car and then exiting said car to confront them is not inherently threatening and does not permit use of force to defend oneself.
Roger Danish
Member
Not impossible, but, based solely on the facts available to us, certainly less likely. That's the point Harvey is missing. In order to tip the scales in the other direction (favoring a self-defense claim), we would have to assume other facts that we simply don't have.
Again, this alone is probably not enough to convict (although those Southern juries sure seem to view that whole "reasonable doubt" standard pretty loosely, especially when the defendant is black, so who knows).
It was probably just hyperbole to emphasize what he was trying to say. Which I agree with: Scumbag should be arrested and tried.
Even so, that's not welcome here, I know this first hand.
Roger Danish
Member
"Lock him up for a million zillion years" is hyperbole. Jokes like that just serve to trivialize rape. Not cool.
The Incarnation
Member
He should have something like that make Kony famous thing done to him. Dramatic music and all.
He's a (comparably) rich white male.
KHarvey - I know this is quite late, but just to clear it up, you had said "most of them rather unlikely" in reference to scenarios where Zimmerman disobeying dispatch and shooting the kid would make sense. This is where you implied that perhaps you had scenarios that were likely. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but think you meant "all of them rather unlikely"?
I don't know if we'll ever really know what actually happened to cause this tragedy, but what we do know is George Zimmerman killed a kid walking home from buying some Skittles and Ice Tea after some sort of altercation and he has not been arrested or charged for over a month (and if one of the news stories is accurate, he was processed by a relative, I'm thinking that was an error in the reporting...at least I hope it was!)
Terrible all around.
I don't know if we'll ever really know what actually happened to cause this tragedy, but what we do know is George Zimmerman killed a kid walking home from buying some Skittles and Ice Tea after some sort of altercation and he has not been arrested or charged for over a month (and if one of the news stories is accurate, he was processed by a relative, I'm thinking that was an error in the reporting...at least I hope it was!)
Terrible all around.
Jim E. Rossler
Banned
When I got my Concealed Carry Permit, they specifically said you cant use deadly force on a fight you instigate, even to prevent imminent grievous bodily harm and/or death
Tailing a dude around is a good way to start a fight
Tailing a dude around is a good way to start a fight
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
A guy was killed because he was black. It´s so fucking sick, and disgraceful in this day and age.
Why the fuck there is a neighborhood watch to begin with? It´s the police´s job to make sure that the citizens are being safe. (yeah, i know, people don´t trust the police and stuff, but neighborhood watch calls the police anyway)
Why the fuck there is a neighborhood watch to begin with? It´s the police´s job to make sure that the citizens are being safe. (yeah, i know, people don´t trust the police and stuff, but neighborhood watch calls the police anyway)
Well in theory its additional people who can be witness to potential crime. They shouldn't under any circumstances get involved...especially when advised not to by a police operator.
Smiles and Cries
Member
the hell 
Devolution
Member
Oh man you really need to read some posts in the thread if you haven't already. You will laugh.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
I still won´t be comfortable having neighborhood watch in my community. If there are some racist idiots among those people they can just report people from other races, just for being different color. A person would be subjugated to investigation for doing absolutely nothing. That´s just my opinion though.
After reading this story, well I don't blame you.
It's Friday morning and the sun is shining. For once, I just can't do it.
(Edit: Ah, I see it's KHarvey. Might read then, something about his stubborn, robotic nature turns me on)
what state do you live? i wonder what the laws are in florida. it would be insane if people with concealed carry permits could pick fights and then kill people when those people fought back and then claimed self defense which this case pretty much is.
Oh so you recognize his posting style? I await your opinion then.
I think its time for a watch who watches the neighbourhood watch!
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