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Again, do you seriously think that Bioware is capable of doing this? Given Tali's stock photo and Joker's sudden urge to go relay jumping (Ride the Flavor Wave! with your choice of lime, cherry, or blue raspberry!), the ending just screams laziness.

In the end, the indoctrination theory is just a "it's all a dream" theory. It's not necessarily a bad thing; Inception and Total Recall handle it well, mostly because those two films are built around the questioning of reality. In Mass Effect, it's there, but it's not really prominent.

Still, even if it were true, with the prevailing theory that everything after the red beam is a dream, Shep's still on Earth taking a nap (or dead) while everyone is dying around him. He failed.

The stock photo was lazy, but on the whole, a lot of work obviously went into this game. (Edit: Oh, and I'm not looking into the Joker thing too much right now, because if the indoctrination theory is true, then that didn't happen. Shepard wakes up after the Normandy lands on that planet, so Shepard was still hallucinating at the time.)

FrontalMonk responded to your second point pretty well, I think. So I have nothing to add.

And I don't necessarily think Shepard failed (yet) if s/he went with the Destroy ending. I doubt Shepard was knocked out so long the Reapers had time to finish the entire battle and leave. (Edit: The Reapers had been assaulting Earth throughout the entire game, and still hadn't finished up yet.)

If he were indoctrinated, why wouldnt the prothean vi at thessia know? It detected Kai leng. So you have to assert Shepard was "corrupted" between thessia and earth.

Just doesn't sit right with me.

That's the one thing that didn't make sense to me, but I noticed on Earth near Liara there's a datapad from the point of view of someone that seems to be undergoing indoctrination while on Earth. So Shepard being indoctrinated while on Earth apparently isn't impossible, and maybe even foreshadowed.

Also, Shepard ends up fairly close to the Reaper you kill after fighting all the Banshees. Maybe that was enough combined with previous exposure to Reaper tech to indoctrinate him/her.

Yea. That's brilliant.

Also having the high EMS makes the kid say, "Wake up" instead of "why are you here?" is pretty trippy indeed.

That's pretty cool. I never would have noticed that myself.

 

[Veelk]

If he were indoctrinated, why wouldnt the prothean vi at thessia know? It detected Kai leng. So you have to assert Shepard was "corrupted" between thessia and earth.

Just doesn't sit right with me.

It could be a matter of severity. Shepards indoctrination was subtle, we only ever had it appear in his dreams. In comparison, the reapers could have strings attached to illusive mans body, and he still wouldn't realize that he's a puppet. Kai Leng is as fanatically loyal to the Illusive man as the Illusive man is to his ideals. He most likely had reaper implants himself. His indoctrination is clearly far more severe.

 

[heliosRAzi]

But who's cyborg ninja?

Thane, with cybernetic implants, of course.

The stock photo was lazy, but on the whole, a lot of work obviously went into this game.

The endings themselves are a testament to Bioware's laziness. It's all essentially the same except for a color swap. This isn't to say that the game isn't well made. It absolutely shines everywhere else, but the ending just feels rushed.

 

[JWong]

I don't think Shepard is indoctrinated for the entire game (if he was at all). It is possible if we follow the theory that the little boy is a tool the Reapers are using to attempt to indoctrinate Shepard, but he has been resisting it successfully.

Only at the end, when he is right in front of Harbinger, and "shot" with the laser, does the full indoctrination process begin. According to the theory anyway.

Shepard was indoctrinated since ME1 when he used the beacon! 8P

 

[Dresden]

Indoctrination theory is passé, it's all about the "Shepard is still stuck in Legion's VR machine" theory now imo.

 

[Vire]

Yea. That's brilliant.

Also having the high EMS makes the kid say, "Wake up" instead of "why are you here?" is pretty trippy indeed.

When does the kid say this? Do you have a link by any chance?

 

[LightofRohan]

Man, I really ruined my ending. I was going to choose Destroy, but I couldn't really understand the 3rd option - so I went online to rehear it on Youtube and every video only had the Two options available. So I assumed the 3rd one was some special ending that I'd be stupid not to choose...

 

[sflufan]

Has there ever been any indication that Shepherd was reconstituted with Reaper tech in ME2? If so, that could be another path to indoctrination.

 

[hateradio]

Why wouldn't it? You would have to break the indoctrination process, which means you never get fully indoctrinated, to continue the game. The indoctrination theory is that everything after the beam of light from Harbinger is an illusion. It is in Shepard's head, and part of the final indoctrination process. Not real.

He was being indoctrinated while talking to TIM. Then he snapped out of it then and there.

You could see the symbiote crawl on Shep's neck, but then it goes away after TIM gets told to go to hell.

It would be ridiculous to do that twice.

Has there ever been any indication that Shepherd was reconstituted with Reaper tech in ME2? If so, that could be another path to indoctrination.

None. I would think that Cerberus started experimenting with Reaper tech after ME2.

 

[LightofRohan]

When does the kid say this? Do you have a link by any chance?

"Why are you here?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlgfryAh0aw&t=16s

"Wake up!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o43tVHs-Ns&t=18s

Trippy right? Only available if you 100% ect. ect.

 

[rozay]

Well, time to get to work with bing rewards so if there is another ending coming out, I can afford it. There had also better be a way to get 5000k assets with just single player this time...

 

[Veelk]

Has there ever been any indication that Shepherd was reconstituted with Reaper tech in ME2? If so, that could be another path to indoctrination.

Doubtful. The Illusive man had some kind of contact with the reapers before the events of ME2 (I haven't read the book), presumably giving him those wierd eyes, but he only had access to actual reaper tech after you beat the collector base.

 

[LightofRohan]

Well, time to get to work with bing rewards so if there is another ending coming out, I can afford it.

Haha. Get to work!

But really if this was planned it will be free -- if not it will be charged. Guaranteed.

 

[hateradio]

"Why are you here?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlgfryAh0aw&t=16s

"Wake up!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o43tVHs-Ns&t=18s

Trippy right?

I could have sworn I was told to wake up, but I didn't find that trippy. Shep does collapse on the elevator. Being told to wake up isn't anything special.

 

[Duki]

That makes no sense. Do you just say that the original ending was all a dream? Every single part of it?

...thats what the indoctrination theory is, yeah

shepard is being mind raped back on earth by harbinger

everything that happens in the citadel is a test of willpower to try and indoctrinate shepard. none of it is real

i mean thats the theory, im not saying its what actually happened

bioware being lazy and shitty is much more likely

but from the way indoctrination is described over three games of lore and codexes, it just fits eerily well

 

[Hellsing321]

He was being indoctrinated while talking to TIM. Then he snapped out of it then and there.

You could see the symbiote crawl on Shep's neck, but then it goes away after TIM gets told to go to hell.

It would be ridiculous to do that twice.

We heard you like indoctrination so we indoctrinated you while you were being indoctrinated.

 

[Dresden]

But really if this was planned it will be free -- if not it will be charged. Guaranteed.

I . . . don't know. I doubt it.

 

[EatChildren]

Has there ever been any indication that Shepherd was reconstituted with Reaper tech in ME2? If so, that could be another path to indoctrination.

Nope. If the lore is anything to go by Cerberus didn't start experimenting on Reaper tech mixed with humans until post-ME2, detailed in the book Retribution. Paul Grayson was their first subject, who became completely indoctrinated and uncontrollable. ME3 mentions this in the Cerberus Headquarters. It seems these experiments went towards enhancing and indoctrinating Cerberus' army built at their base on Horizon from fleeing refugees. TIM enhanced himself with implants likely to control his army through his own indoctrination, which by the end of the game get the better of him.

 

[rozay]

Haha. Get to work!

But really if this was planned it will be free -- if not it will be charged. Guaranteed.

Can't agree when they charged for a character as important as a Prothean and there's a shit ton of interest and discussion EA can capitalize on. People will pay for it.

 

[Veelk]

I was told to wake up, but I didn't find that trippy. Shep does collapse on the elevator. Being told to wake up isn't anything special.

But in all other instances, the kid says "what are you doing here?"

It could just be some weird programming error that bioware made, but if it's not, what is the reason for the change?

This is the essence of the indoctrination theory. Not anything definitive, but loads of ambiguous hints that just keep piling up until you can't think it's all a coincidence.

 

[Last Hearth]

"Why are you here?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlgfryAh0aw&t=16s

"Wake up!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o43tVHs-Ns&t=18s

Trippy right? Only available if you 100% ect. ect.

Yeah, this is pretty persuasive. There is really no reason for the Catalyst to have two different opening lines unless there is a compelling reason. And none of what happens next in the current ending gives us that compelling reason.

 

[sflufan]

Oops sory!

 

[hateradio]

This is the essence of the indoctrination theory. Not anything definitive, but loads of ambiguous hints that just end up piling up until you can't think it's anything but a coincidence.

So, because the VI is nicer to you if you get higher EMS/respect(?), it has to be a hint at something. Awesome.

Yeah, this is pretty persuasive. There is really no reason for the Catalyst to have two different opening lines unless there is a compelling reason. And none of what happens next in the current ending gives us that compelling reason.

You're being indoctrinated.

 

[DTKT]

For the sake of your psyche, just accept that your favorite series ended and move on.

Yes please.

 

[LiK]

Indoctrination theory is passé, it's all about the "Shepard is still stuck in Legion's VR machine" theory now imo.

It was all a test.

 

[bengraven]

Favorite bits:

- Rannoch - getting the peace ending was pretty awesome - the Geth prime suddenly acting accomodating to the Admiral: "where were you considering settling?" "well, the south continent would be ideal for planting crops" "That's fine and also may I suggest the house wine?"

- The Citadel - very good way of doing it. Smaller than ME1, bigger than ME2 (at least I think so, I'm probably wrong), but with plenty to actually do and interact with. Kelly turning her back and showing up was a shock to me. I still wish I could have saved her.

- Mars - meeting Liara, fight against Eva

- Thessia - why the fuck didn't I bring Javik with though...

- The Normandy - I was hoping they would eventually "finish" the upgrades, but I did like the look of a spaceship still in the construction phase with tarps and hoses/electrical cords lying around.

- the car chase - yes, the cyber ninja was fucking stupid, but the chase was at least exciting and I did like Leng's swagger.

- The "Walk of Shame" - I'm a sucker for a character getting his ass handed to him and having to stumble to his goal. This is also the first and only time the voice actor Mark Meers impressed me...he sounded like something was broken and bleeding in his torso and that's how he should sound. The gore and keepers and the Citadel shifting gave it a very creepy Fire in the Sky feel as well.

- Javik - awesome. My lore boner was so hard. Voice actor was great. Character was great. The ending he wanted was sad; I kept thinking maybe someone can clone more Protheans from his DNA.

They even have ducks flying around (can be clearly seen during the rescue Admiral Koris mission). I dunno, I found it funny that they have ducks more than halfway across the galaxy from Earth and that the Quarians are just humans with three fingers and dinosaur hindlegs.

hahahaha I thought I was the only one to notice that.

I was like "WTF are ducks doing on this planet?".

 

[LightofRohan]

For the sake of your psyche, just accept that your favorite series ended and move on.

Spoiler

I'll never move on! NEVER! ... NEVER!

 

[Sojgat]

At this point there is just too much supporting evidence, for it all to be coincidence is just improbable.

 

[heliosRAzi]

So, because the VI is nicer to you if you get higher EMS/respect(?), it has to be a hint at something. Awesome.


You're being indoctrinated.

The opening line of a vent-kid-god-AI-flavor dispenser depends on whether or not the geth and quarians can make nice.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

How do we know that Shepard actually beamed up to the citadel, he could have beamed up to a reaper ship

*runs*

 

[Veelk]

So, because the VI is nicer to you if you get higher EMS/respect(?), it has to be a hint at something. Awesome.

Well, yes. That's why it's a hint and not conclusive evidence. It's subtle and could mean nothing. It's only when combined with everything else that it becomes convincing.

 

[sdornan]

Indoctrination videos from Mass Effect 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTvLgy2Iwd4

Lots of mentions of feeling edgy and having headaches by the indoctrinated crew, something Shepard also mentions frequently through Mass Effect 3.

 

[FrontalMonk]

In ME2, no one treated his resurrection as something miraculous. Everyone is basically "Hey, Shep. How are you doing?" The VS on Horizon was mad at you because you didn't contact them in two years and there was no option to tell them, "Hey, I was dead. Now worship me for I am the Shepherd reborn."

You are Space Jesus and no one cares.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I felt like despite a little bit of shoddy voice acting here and there the entire cast of the game seemed pretty incredulous at the rumor that "Commander Shepard is alive".

You're right: they shouldn't hit you over the head with the hints, but it doesn't work in this game because it's not a game where you question reality. In Inception, you question whether Cobb's reality is the correct reality. In Total Recall, you question whether or not it was a vast plan to keep three-titted aliens from breathing suitable air.

In the end, according to the theory, if Shep was indoctrinated, he is still lying on Earth while everyone dies around him. Nothing is accomplished.

the neat thing at how this plays out though is between Saren, Derelict Reaper, Arrival, and TIM, you see the effects of indoctrination of everyone else, but you never experience it yourself. If you go by what the theory suggests, this is basically just bioware's way of showing you what indoctrination can be like.

Also, I highly suspect that if that is the case, and if there's supposed to be "True End DLC" down the pipe, that Shepard resisting the indoctrination results in him getting up and finishing the fight. Shepard succumbing to the indoctrination...well, what would a Mass Effect game be if there were zero consequences for your choices?

 

[hateradio]

- Mars - meeting Liara, fight against Eva

I was like "WTF are ducks doing on this planet?".

Eva's scenes are some of the worst in the game. The run sequence is so dumb.

Also, birds had some really lazy animation. They looked so robotic.

The opening line of a vent-kid-god-AI-flavor dispenser depends on whether or not the geth and quarians can make nice.

I did create peace. Too bad it doesn't mean anything in two of three endings.

 

[Zomba13]

You apparently need to use the Paragon/Renegade option every time you meet him in ME3. So during Mars, during Thessia (I think) and during the assault on his base.

Oh, and repost: my alternate ending cut. Because fuck Vent Kid.

Much better. Closes out the trilogy and leave the Relays intact for future games and doesn't fuck over the galaxy.

 

[Duki]

well, what would a Mass Effect game be if there were zero consequences for your choices?

a bioware game

 

[Psychoward]

"Why are you here?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlgfryAh0aw&t=16s

"Wake up!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o43tVHs-Ns&t=18s

Trippy right? Only available if you 100% ect. ect.

holyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

[DTKT]

Eva's scenes are some of the worst in the game. The run sequence is so dumb.

Also, birds had some really lazy animation. They looked so robotic.


I did create peace. Too bad it doesn't mean anything in two of three endings.

It's mostly because they are just 2D sprites. They use that technique a lot in ME3. Most of the crowd in Purgatory are 2D sprites with a blur filter. All the pigeons are the same.

 

[Rokam]

We should've known choice wouldn't matter when you get to Cerberus HQ and the human reaper is there not completely destroyed. Glad ME2's big decision didn't mean shit.

 

[Achtius]

I hate banshee, I hate banshee, I hate banshee

can we have a asari genocide to prevent more of them are being turned?

 

[Moaradin]

It's mostly because they are just 2D sprites. They use that technique a lot in ME3. Most of the crowd in Purgatory are 2D sprites with a blur filter. All the pigeons are the same.

Every ME game uses 2D sprites for those unimportant things.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I felt like despite a little bit of shoddy voice acting here and there the entire cast of the game seemed pretty incredulous at the rumor that "Commander Shepard is alive".

They were incredulous at you being alive because for 2 years they thought you were dead. The idea that you actually died and came back to life, nobody really bats an eye at after the first 20 minutes of the game, nor are the implications ever explored.


Also guys, come on. Shepard's eyes look funny? Because he has cybernetic implants since ME2. His eyes glow there if you're Renegade! The walls look funny? Why can't that be either a cool setpiece, or just TIM trying to indoctrinate you?

 

[rozay]

Eva's scenes are some of the worst in the game. The run sequence is so dumb.

Also, birds had some really lazy animation. They looked so robotic.


I did create peace. Too bad it doesn't mean anything in two of three endings.

I'm pretty sure the bird sprites are exactly the same as the ones in ME2 (kasumi's mission comes to mind)

 

[mxgt]

I hate banshee, I hate banshee, I hate banshee

can we have a asari genocide to prevent more of them are being turned?

They're certainly quite frustrating to fight in packs but I think they're amazing design wise

 

[sdornan]

"Why are you here?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlgfryAh0aw&t=16s

"Wake up!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o43tVHs-Ns&t=18s

Trippy right? Only available if you 100% ect. ect.

Adding to this... Shepard also says one of multiple lines when the vent kid says that the created will always destroy the creators during the explanation of the destroy choice:

"Maybe."

"We'll take our chances."

 

[Last Hearth]

They were incredulous at you being alive because for 2 years they thought you were dead. The idea that you actually died and came back to life, nobody really bats an eye at after the first 20 minutes of the game, nor are the implications ever explored.


Also guys, come on. Shepard's eyes look funny? Because he has cybernetic implants since ME2. His eyes glow there if you're Renegade! The walls look funny? Why can't that be either a cool setpiece, or just TIM trying to indoctrinate you?

But they don't know that you died and come back to life. They weren't there to see your dead body, so for them it's just "I assumed you died, maybe you were just really badly injured and took a long time to recover".

 

[hateradio]

Adding to this... Shepard also says one of multiple lines when the vent kid says that the created will always destroy the creators during the explanation of the destroy choice:

"Maybe."

"We'll take our chances."

So much diversity!

So if you resolved the Geth/Quarian conflict you get a few changed lines. Awesome, con't.

But they don't know that you died and come back to life. They weren't there to see your dead body, so for them it's just "I assumed you died, maybe you were just really badly injured and took a long time to recover".

Liara saw your corpse, didn't she? I believe she mentions it.

 

[Lonestar]

Doubtful. The Illusive man had some kind of contact with the reapers before the events of ME2 (I haven't read the book), presumably giving him those wierd eyes, but he only had access to actual reaper tech after you beat the collector base.

Might be me being dumb, but it seems to me, that TIM's complete submission to Indoctrination, didn't happen until after ME2 (gathering the Human-Reaper corpse and holding it "downstairs"). He was slimy in ME2, but what Cerberus was doing in ME3 is straight up Villainy, not Pro-Human like they were before.



Really, there wouldn't be half the crazy theorizing, if they just never had shown a breathing Shepard.

 

[Doublesith]

Nope. If the lore is anything to go by Cerberus didn't start experimenting on Reaper tech mixed with humans until post-ME2, detailed in the book Retribution. Paul Grayson was their first subject, who became completely indoctrinated and uncontrollable. ME3 mentions this in the Cerberus Headquarters. It seems these experiments went towards enhancing and indoctrinating Cerberus' army built at their base on Horizon from fleeing refugees. TIM enhanced himself with implants likely to control his army through his own indoctrination, which by the end of the game get the better of him.

An unconscious Shepard was at the mercy of Harbinger and a full base of indoctrinated scientists for a couple of days during The Arrival. The Reapers might have meddled with Shep's implants then.

Anyone else expected Vega to be indoctrinated? He kept complaining about a hum.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I felt like despite a little bit of shoddy voice acting here and there the entire cast of the game seemed pretty incredulous at the rumor that "Commander Shepard is alive".

We can, but it's pretty definitive that no one cares Shep is Space Jesus. The closest is when you first go to the Citadel. You make a couple of jokes about being dead, but other than that, no one cares. I don't even think it's the VA direction: the game itself doesn't really acknowledge that Shep died and its not important.

what would a Mass Effect game be if there were zero consequences for your choices?

A game where you've been indoctrinated

Eva's scenes are some of the worst in the game. The run sequence is so dumb.

I Kept trying to biotic charge her, but the game wouldn't let me.

I did create peace. Too bad it doesn't mean anything in two of three endings.

I created peace, too. You would think that even in his own dream, Shep would bring it up.