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[Beth Cyra]

Why on earth would these examples not be taken into consideration? They were, massive, super hyped-up projects that dragged their flagship title's brand through the mud. I don't think these are duds that you can just gloss over.

These aren't because of somenoe holding things over these Directors that caused it though which is the hope/argument some people want with Matsuno.

XIII had issues and it was because Toriyama is an idiot who couldn't lead a team.

The issues with FF XIV are at a very basic gameplay level and things that would be decided on by the team, gameplay and over director.

They shouldn't be glossed over but neither should the men who failed have excuses made for them.

 

[sublimit]

Sigh..i wish we had some leaked info regarding the development of this game. :/I'm tired of one hypothesis after the other.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

Here's a better question though. Does anything in Matsuno's track record indicate that he was fully capable and prepared to manage a huge revolutionary mainline FF game and lead a team of over 100 people?

Nothing made it seem like he was a guaranteed safe choice, but it's not like his body of work before that had any warning signs either. (At least, nothing that I recall.) SE's output across multiple games on the other hand is full of red flags when it comes to management.

These aren't because of somenoe holding things over these Directors that caused it though which is the hope/argument some people want with Matsuno.

XIII had issues and it was because Toriyama is an idiot who couldn't lead a team.

The issues with FF XIV are at a very basic gameplay level and things that would be decided on by the team, gameplay and over director.

They shouldn't be glossed over but neither should the men who failed have excuses made for them.

Of course not. Toriyama clearly has some serious weaknesses as the leader of a project. Toriyama has to answer to someone in SE though right? What did this person do? Just give Toriyama (and other troubled teams like the one for FFXIV) complete, un-checked, free reign from the start all the way to the end till Toriyama said the game is "ready?" That's not exactly acceptable either.

 

[BlackJace]

The fact that they allowed XIII-2 and XIV 2.0 to even be made makes me highly doubt they believe Vs XIII is Make or Break anything.

Cmon, Square knows that fans are pissed about where the franchise is headed. XIII-2 was an attempt by them to rectify what the did wrong in XIII.
You can look at it anyway, but can you really tell me that XIII-2 was worse than XIII?
I really doubt you can, seeing as its an improvement. Type-O seemed to please alot of fans as well.

All I'm saying is that I think (and this is just me spit-ballin') that the long wait just goes to show that they are trying to make it as good as they can make it. Think of a project or something you've worked on for a while. If you're afraid that the project sucks, you're not going to speak about it to your boss or teacher, and keep it in production until you see it fit to release. That's how I see Versus.

The fact that its taking so damn long to release means something.

 

[Beth Cyra]

Cmon, Square knows that fans are pissed about where the franchise is headed. XIII-2 was an attempt by them to rectify what the did wrong in XIII.
You can look at it anyway, but can you really tell me that XIII-2 was worse than XIII?
I really doubt you can, seeing as its an improvement. Type-O seemed to please alot of fans as well.

All I'm saying is that I think (and this is just me spit-ballin') that the long wait just goes to show that they are trying to make it as good as they can make it. Think of a project or something you've worked on for a while. If you're afraid that the project sucks, you're not going to speak about it to your boss or teacher, and keep in production until you see it fit to release. That's how I see Versus.

The fact that its taking so damn long to release means something.

Overall XIII-2 is a better game, but to me it's a far worse experince.

As far as Type-0 as it stands isn't it at only around 800k in Japan and we are still waiting for the Western PSP/VIta/3DS whatever thing to finally show up any where else?

Also them improving on a game isn't a valid excuse for using a game that many people hate as a base.

You maybe right. I just don't believe Wada is betting all that much on Vs XIII swaying the opinon one way or another. Even less so if Nomura really does want to show the game and is being forced not to.

Nothing made it seem like he was a guaranteed safe choice, but it's not like his body of work before that had any warning signs either. (At least, nothing that I recall.) SE's output across multiple games on the other hand is full of red flags when it comes to management.




Of course not. Toriyama clearly has some serious weaknesses as the leader of a project. Toriyama has to answer to someone in SE though right? What did this person do? Just give Toriyama (and other troubled teams like the one for FFXIV) complete, un-checked, free reign from the start all the way to the end till Toriyama said the game is "ready?" That's not exactly acceptable either.

Well it's a good thing that didn't happen either.

Nomura's team was forced to help him, not only that he spent along time on it and didn't even know where the game was going until someone came down on him.

XIII-2 and 3rd Birthday are weird, but I can't imagine we will see him in the director's seat of XV or XVI.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

Overall XIII-2 is a better game, but to me it's a far worse experince.

As far as Type-0 as it stands isn't it at only around 800k in Japan and we are still waiting for the Western PSP/VIta/3DS whatever thing to finally show up any where else?

Also them improving on a game isn't a valid excuse for using a game that many people hate as a base.

You maybe right. I just don't believe Wada is betting all that much on Vs XIII swaying the opinon one way or another. Even less so if Nomura really does want to show the game and is being forced not to.



Well it's a good thing that didn't happen either.

Nomura's team was forced to help him, not only that he spent along time on it and didn't even know where the game was going until someone came down on him.

XIII-2 and 3rd Birthday are weird, but I can't imagine we will see him in the director's seat of XV or XVI.

So some higher-up was aware of the game's state, delegated more help towards making it, and still let the game go out the door with SE's logo on it even though it still had a lot of issues? I'm not sure what's worse.

It just seems like whatever game-development-environment & culture Squaresoft had cultivated internally has slowly died off with SE. A lot of the notable names that made great games together have been underwhelming once they went their separate ways.

 

[Red Scarlet]

A couple other games were delayed longer, it's not that big a deal. 13-2 was enjoyable.

 

[BlackJace]

Overall XIII-2 is a better game, but to me it's a far worse experince.

As far as Type-0 as it stands isn't it at only around 800k in Japan and we are still waiting for the Western PSP/VIta/3DS whatever thing to finally show up any where else?

Also them improving on a game isn't a valid excuse for using a game that many people hate as a base.

You maybe right. I just don't believe Wada is betting all that much on Vs XIII swaying the opinon one way or another. Even less so if Nomura really does want to show the game and is being forced not to.

I agree with you for the most part. Like I've been saying for years now, its best to just forget about Versus and enjoy what games we have now.
Sooner or later SOMETHING has to come out about it.

 

[Beth Cyra]

So some higher-up was aware of the game's state, delegated more help towards making it, and still let the game go out the door with SE's logo on it even though it still had a lot of issues? I'm not sure what's worse.

It just seems like whatever culture Squaresoft had cultivated internally has slowly died off with SE. A lot of the notable names that made great games together have been underwhelming once they went their separate ways.

The well the only three left of the big names has been in the spot light recently.

Kitase - Just produces now right?

Matsuno's team have been very quite outside of Tactics Ogre

Nomura - Has created SE biggest new JP Ip, has succesfully created a new secondary team (some say better then the main with Team Osaka) and has been pushing smaller teams to do stuff like Dissidia.

Hell others seem to be doing better and better. The only thing that really seems like a problem is that Toriyama has had so much spot light and he should never, ever lead.

 

[frostbyte]

The well the only three left of the big names has been in the spot light recently.

Kitase - Just produces now right?

Matsuno's team have been very quite outside of Tactics Ogre

Nomura - Has created SE biggest new JP Ip, has succesfully created a new secondary team (some say better then the main with Team Osaka) and has been pushing smaller teams to do stuff like Dissidia.

Hell others seem to be doing better and better. The only thing that really seems like a problem is that Toriyama has had so much spot light and he should never, ever lead.

Hasn't Matsuno left SE?

Exactly, I don't get all the hate for Nomura when you've got people like Toriyama around.

 

[Beth Cyra]

Hasn't Matsuno left SE?

Exactly, I don't get all the hate for Nomura when you've got people like Toriyama around.

Yeah. That dates back to XII though and not something that happened this Gen.

Alot of his Team, including several of the talented leads he had are still at SE though from what I remember.

 

[CorvoSol]

Of course not. Toriyama clearly has some serious weaknesses as the leader of a project. Toriyama has to answer to someone in SE though right? What did this person do? Just give Toriyama (and other troubled teams like the one for FFXIV) complete, un-checked, free reign from the start all the way to the end till Toriyama said the game is "ready?" That's not exactly acceptable either.

This is really the only plausible explanation for how one man can single-handedly mishandle so many games on his own. His present evils only make his past successes that much more confusing.

XIII-2 and 3rd Birthday are weird, but I can't imagine we will see him in the director's seat of XV or XVI.

As a game, 3rd Birthday is great. As a story, which Toriyama thinks is his strength, it's majestically terrible. The game made me wonder if there was a word for expressing negative coherence in a plot. It just really, really, really was terrible. I don't know who you are, or anything about you, but I guarantee you that, even if you knew next-to nothing about Parasite Eve, you could still do a better job of writing that game.

 

[Meccanical]

You know I used to think Toriyama was the sole director of X, but apparently that game had multiple directors, and he was the Event Director.

The first game he was sole director of was X-2.

 

[Beth Cyra]

You know I used to think Toriyama was the sole director of X, but apparently that game had multiple directors, and he was the Event Director.

The first game he was sole director of was X-2.

Which was a good game. X-2 has some increidble design, and when it isn't being a Charlie rip off the story between Shuyin and Lynne was actually really sweet.

He had some good stuff in XIII as well, just the bad out weighed the good to many people. XIII-2 and worse 3rd Birthday being the biggest offenders to me personally.

Also he had Revenant Wings but that was actually well done, and having Vaan pimp smack Balthier was freaking amazing.

 

[sonicmj1]

I want to believe that Versus is on track to be awesome and come out soon, but then I think about what I know of XIII's development (where they didn't have a coherent concept of the game until they were well into the Advent Children Complete demo), and I wonder whether anyone at the company knows how to produce a large project in the HD era.

If they had no intention of releasing the game in the near future (within a year or two), there would be no reason for them to keep stringing fans along with trailers and stuff. But it's been six years. At some level, at some time, there have been significant problems with the development of this game.

If there isn't a ton of info and a release date at E3, I don't know when this game is ever going to come out.

 

[Kyoufu]

You know I used to think Toriyama was the sole director of X, but apparently that game had multiple directors, and he was the Event Director.

The first game he was sole director of was X-2.

Explains everything.

 

[charlequin]

That very well might be the case. But, it's not like all the other big projects at SE have been smooth sailing as of late.

Well, that's certainly true. Square-Enix's development methodologies totally suck. They don't use modern agile approaches, they still haven't gotten a handle on middle or reusable tools, they don't do aggressive vertical planning early on, they still do waterfall-style progression through development stages. All of this stuff makes them basically incapable of completing a project on the scale of a major FF title quickly, efficiently, or effectively, and it applies no matter who is sitting in the director's chair. The FFXII and FFXIII postmortems described exactly the same problems with development and the Versus one will undoubtedly do so too.

The problem is that people try to blame it on "management" as if Wada is sticking his nose in and personally interfering to screw things up when actually the problem is one of organizational culture and institutional knowledge -- it's not just with the bosses, but rather embedded in the company at every level.

Explains everything.

X-2 is like the fourth best FF, though.

 

[Man God]

Besides the lack of engine forethought the whole need of FF games to reinvent the wheel everytime has really bite them in the ass since around 8 or so, coincidentally the height of the series popularity.

Who knows how far Square could have gone just making FF7 over and over again!

Or X even, a much more flexible engine.

I love new and exciting in my JRPG of course but they clearly need to find some middle ground on this and I think they attempted it on the FF XIII project, but it looks like it is too late even for that.

 

[sonicmj1]

Well, that's certainly true. Square-Enix's development methodologies totally suck. They don't use modern agile approaches, they still haven't gotten a handle on middle or reusable tools, they don't do aggressive vertical planning early on, they still do waterfall-style progression through development stages. All of this stuff makes them basically incapable of completing a project on the scale of a major FF title quickly, efficiently, or effectively, and it applies no matter who is sitting in the director's chair. The FFXII and FFXIII postmortems described exactly the same problems with development and the Versus one will undoubtedly do so too.

The problem is that people try to blame it on "management" as if Wada is sticking his nose in and personally interfering to screw things up when actually the problem is one of organizational culture and institutional knowledge -- it's not just with the bosses, but rather embedded in the company at every level.

I think Square is starting to learn. They mentioned a lot of these problems specifically in the XIII postmortem, and the turnaround on XIII-2 has been way faster than most of their recent projects, despite a pretty large shift in game structure. I would hope that whatever future games they make are informed by that experience.

Versus began at the same time as XIII, though. I wouldn't be surprised if it suffers from the same problems. Looking at stuff like the awesome trailer, it seems like the game is simultaneously trying to be both an urban, "modern" RPG that draws more from reality than most Final Fantasy games, and a sprawling, gigantic world quest RPG that shares structural similarities with Final Fantasy games of the past. There's city and countryside, action elements and roleplaying elements, intricate politics and interpersonal friendships. But what parts are essential to the identity of Versus?

Like XIII, they started development with a CG trailer before anything else, and like XIII, it's biting them in the ass. But unlike XIII, they didn't have a demo deadline to try to distill what they had into a single vision, so they're trying to do everything in one game.

Please, Square, prove me wrong.

 

[Perfo]

If they had no intention of releasing the game in the near future (within a year or two), there would be no reason for them to keep stringing fans along with trailers and stuff. But it's been six years.

I'm pretty sure that 'till 2010 they didn't have anything ready yet. With 2011 they released that sort of "cool" (but pre-alpha status?) trailer, showing that the development probably just entered a decent phase and they started to have an idea of what to do with it. At E3 2012 it'll be one year and half from that day, and if we guess a release for december, that makes two years to work on it full time. More than enough for a competent team to develop a title of that scale. Now, did S-E become competent or not? I guess we'll see it soon. If for june they don't have anything for us, the game is going to be released sadly next year.

 

[Famassu]

My honest issue is, is that unless this game is CRAZY optimized for PS3, there's going to be a real possibility that I'm going to be disappointed with the graphics/performance when it comes out.

I'm ready for 1080p, 60FPS, or hell, hair that isn't dithered to death. I guess I'm expecting what would essentially be the Final Fantasy XIII engine 2.0, or something like Heavy Rain, where the graphics are incredible, but then the framerate is busted to death.

The framerate seems fine even in the January 2011 trailer, which was far from being a finished build of the game. And we have all kinds of stuff going on in it from big explosions to massive beasts wreacking the environment to you flying fast through the city.

It's in that respect that I wouldn't necessarily mind the game going multiplatform to a next generation console. But then again, if it remains exclusive to the PS3 and they optimize it like developers used to optimize PS2 games, then I may have nothing to worry about.

Well, this is the same team that made Kingdom Hearts II on PS2, which is perhaps the single most impressive PS2 game (at least at its very best), yet it runs smoothly without any hiccups.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

I think Square is starting to learn. They mentioned a lot of these problems specifically in the XIII postmortem, and the turnaround on XIII-2 has been way faster than most of their recent projects, despite a pretty large shift in game structure. I would hope that whatever future games they make are informed by that experience.

Versus began at the same time as XIII, though. I wouldn't be surprised if it suffers from the same problems. Looking at stuff like the awesome trailer, it seems like the game is simultaneously trying to be both an urban, "modern" RPG that draws more from reality than most Final Fantasy games, and a sprawling, gigantic world quest RPG that shares structural similarities with Final Fantasy games of the past. There's city and countryside, action elements and roleplaying elements, intricate politics and interpersonal friendships. But what parts are essential to the identity of Versus?

Like XIII, they started development with a CG trailer before anything else, and like XIII, it's biting them in the ass. But unlike XIII, they didn't have a demo deadline to try to distill what they had into a single vision, so they're trying to do everything in one game.

Please, Square, prove me wrong.

Despite all of the disappointments they've unleashed on us, somehow I'm staying pretty optimistic and still hyped for this game. I'm willing to wait few more years too as they perfect everything! Provided that we get substantial info and a demo or two in the meantime. Meantime as in SOON.

 

[CorvoSol]

You know I used to think Toriyama was the sole director of X, but apparently that game had multiple directors, and he was the Event Director.

The first game he was sole director of was X-2.

Allegedly he was involved in Bahamut Lagoon, too, which was okay, despite housing what might be the very first recorded Toriyama'd moment.

But now he's become the bloated Toriyama the Hutt, and he needs to stop.

 

[raven777]

After finishing XIII-2, I am actually little bit more optimistic about SE titles.
They actually tried to listen to critics in many areas (not all)

And if I remember correctly, Toriyama is not involved in versus, so more hype.

 

[Dunan]

Allegedly he was involved in Bahamut Lagoon, too, which was okay, despite housing what might be the very first recorded Toriyama'd moment.

But now he's become the bloated Toriyama the Hutt, and he needs to stop.

Which moment was that? I played this game back in 1996 and have sort of forgotten all but the main outline of the plot. Something about Don Juan and his lecherous ways?

 

[Viola of the Abyss]

On which other projects is Nomura working on at the moment?

I know for sure Kingdom Hearts 3D which is almost finished.
Probably a new Dissidia for Vita... anything else?

I think that Kingdom Hearts 3 is too far away for it to be considered in development, maybe it's still in its early design stages like Versus has been from 2006-2009.

Also regarding the game entering full production, I found this: http://www.justpushstart.com/2011/09/final-fantasy-versus-xiii-finally-goes-into-full-production/

Except it doesn't say exactly when it did...

 

[jaxword]

This is really the only plausible explanation for how one man can single-handedly mishandle so many games on his own. His present evils only make his past successes that much more confusing.

Here's the thing about Toriyama: he's let his sex drive override his quality control.

He's NOT good on his own. His successes have been when he's paired with others or working off others' pre-established material. See: FFX, where he was co-director, versus FFX-2, which was him alone, but still working off the FFX resources.

FFX-2 was a good game hampered by the fanservice angle. That's Toriyama in a nutshell. He has weird "costume" fetishes and injects them into his work, and he's part of Square's Old Boys' Club so he basically has tenure.

Here's where you can see Toriyama's fetish inject itself:
-Wall street in FF7. Hookers and crossdressing.
-FFX-2. Teenage girls in swimsuits.
-Parasite Eve 3rd: Her clothes get ripped off, also she has various inexplicable fetish costumes.
-FF13-2 : The various DLCs, like bikini Serah.

Now, I'm not condemning the man for his sexual fetish, that's his business, but at least try and be professional and keep it from becoming the focus for the game instead of THE GAME.

 

[Regulus Tera]

what

 

[duckroll]

what

 

[Flying Wonkey]

what

 

[frostbyte]

I feel obligated to say what.

On which other projects is Nomura working on at the moment?

I know for sure Kingdom Hearts 3D which is almost finished.
Probably a new Dissidia for Vita... anything else?

I think that Kingdom Hearts 3 is too far away for it to be considered in development, maybe it's still in its early design stages like Versus has been from 2006-2009.

Also regarding the game entering full production, I found this: http://www.justpushstart.com/2011/09/final-fantasy-versus-xiii-finally-goes-into-full-production/

Except it doesn't say exactly when it did...

Didn't the Dissidia team and Nomura say they were going to take a break from Dissidia? They said they were not going to do anything like Dissidia in its current form so they were doing other projects like Theaterhythm instead. I doubt they going to return to Dissidia so quickly. Maybe a few more years/projects down the road first.

KH3 is probably still in Nomura's head and some random notes at this point. They wouldn't start on it without finishing Versus.

 

[Red Scarlet]

What's the game even about? I still think of it as a Xmen VS Street Fighter type game. Play the other ones or something in the meantime. Surely there is at least one that can keep you busy, guys!

 

[jiggle]

^wb red scarlet?
it's a FF where FF norms are juxtaposed with modern settings/locales
like the behemoth fight in shinjuku

On which other projects is Nomura working on at the moment?

KH BBS Vol 2?
Dissidia non fighter?

Didn't the Dissidia team and Nomura say they were going to take a break from Dissidia? They said they were burnt out on it so they were doing other projects like Theaterhythm instead.

http://andriasang.com/comu2f/nomura_on_dissidida_future/
-Dengeki asked Nomura what's next for the Dissidia series. "There is no next," replied Nomura. "We're thinking about ending this pattern of Dissidia here.
-The Dissidia series may not necessarily be over, though. Said Nomura, "For the Dissidia series, there's the possibility of it appearing in another form. However, we feel that we've done all we can with the battle base. We had the staff work for years on one on one battles, so I'd like to let them do another genre. I feel we've done all we can with this pattern of Dissidia. However, it is exciting to see past characters revived in 3D. So, if given the chance, we'd like to do something as Dissidia. however, I don't think it will be this Dissidia."

http://andriasang.com/comwyu/famitsu_squenix_feature/
-Back when Dissidia Duodecim Final Fantasy was about to see release, Nomura told Dengeki that if they made a future Dissidia game it would not be a fighting-based game (see this story). Famitsu asked Nomura this week if he was talking about the 3DS rhythm game Theatrhythm Final Fantasy. The answer is no -- he was referring to something else.

KH3 is probably still in Nomura's head and some random notes at this point. They wouldn't start on it without finishing Versus.

i think Team Osaka seems competent/good enough to promote to a real sequel
especially if it's on 3DS

 

[Flying Wonkey]

Ah found it. Maybe these games are holding up the line?

Game 1:

• Action RPG
• Uses Unreal Engine
• Developed internally at Square Enix under the eye of Ryutaro Ichimura
• Multiple conducted surveys around the world to research art and gameplay direction for the game.
• Features multiplayer aspects, (?) job recruitment page says that it is looking for a network programmer to work on matching and network synchronization during gameplay.

Source: 1 | 2

--

Game 2

• Action RPG
• Developed by 1st Production Dept.
• For PS3 and Vita
• Uses the Unity Engine
• Job listings reveals layer character growth and customization, including job properties, ability properties, a growth system, and a customization system. Also creating play elements within airships over a world map including things like inn functionality, customization elements and checking up on game progress.

Source: 1

 

[Perfo]

http://andriasang.com/comu2f/nomura_on_dissidida_future/
-Dengeki asked Nomura what's next for the Dissidia series. "There is no next," replied Nomura. "We're thinking about ending this pattern of Dissidia here.
-The Dissidia series may not necessarily be over, though. Said Nomura, "For the Dissidia series, there's the possibility of it appearing in another form. However, we feel that we've done all we can with the battle base. We had the staff work for years on one on one battles, so I'd like to let them do another genre. I feel we've done all we can with this pattern of Dissidia. However, it is exciting to see past characters revived in 3D. So, if given the chance, we'd like to do something as Dissidia. however, I don't think it will be this Dissidia."

http://andriasang.com/comwyu/famitsu_squenix_feature/
-Back when Dissidia Duodecim Final Fantasy was about to see release, Nomura told Dengeki that if they made a future Dissidia game it would not be a fighting-based game (see this story). Famitsu asked Nomura this week if he was talking about the 3DS rhythm game Theatrhythm Final Fantasy. The answer is no -- he was referring to something else.

I think the natural path for Dissidia is to become an action RPG a la Kingdom Hearts with original heroes travelling Final Fantasy's worlds and meeting Final Fantasy's characters. Or at least that's what I dream, lol.

 

[jiggle]

found this digging through andriasang links on google
http://andriasang.com/comxhf/nomura_on_kingdom_hearts/

Nomura admitted that it's become difficult to get new players into the series at present. This is one thing they're hoping to address as part of the series' 10th anniversary. One part of this plan is some sort of "HD technical test" for the series.
Kingdom Hearts 3D won't be the only Nomura title that comes out early next year. Nomura also said to expect Theatrhythm, a project on which he's serving as creative producer, early in the new year. He referred to the 3DS rhythm title as the first Final Fantasy 25th anniversary title, suggesting that more could be on the way.

maybe KH Collection and more anniversary games

I think the natural path for Dissidia is to become an action RPG a la Kingdom Hearts with original heroes travelling Final Fantasy's worlds and meeting Final Fantasy's characters. Or at least that's what I dream, lol.

that's what i want too
especially with their seemingly diminished roles in KH

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Here's the thing about Toriyama: he's let his sex drive override his quality control.

He's NOT good on his own. His successes have been when he's paired with others or working off others' pre-established material. See: FFX, where he was co-director, versus FFX-2, which was him alone, but still working off the FFX resources.

FFX-2 was a good game hampered by the fanservice angle. That's Toriyama in a nutshell. He has weird "costume" fetishes and injects them into his work, and he's part of Square's Old Boys' Club so he basically has tenure.

Here's where you can see Toriyama's fetish inject itself:
-Wall street in FF7. Hookers and crossdressing.
-FFX-2. Teenage girls in swimsuits.
-Parasite Eve 3rd: Her clothes get ripped off, also she has various inexplicable fetish costumes.
-FF13-2 : The various DLCs, like bikini Serah.

Now, I'm not condemning the man for his sexual fetish, that's his business, but at least try and be professional and keep it from becoming the focus for the game instead of THE GAME.

Why does this not seem so crazy to me? It seems like he's got a point!

Is there something wrong with me? =(

 

[dramatis]

What's the game even about? I still think of it as a Xmen VS Street Fighter type game. Play the other ones or something in the meantime. Surely there is at least one that can keep you busy, guys!

Welcome back.

Why does this not seem so crazy to me? It seems like he's got a point!

Is there something wrong with me? =(

It's a bit presumptuous to assume all of those are a result of one man's uncontrollable sexual urges or fetishes. Although I do feel as though Toriyama lets fanservice hamper many parts of his games (case in point: Vanille, 3rd Bday), I don't think it's necessarily a part of his personal character.

I didn't see anything from Front Mission Evolved other than ACTIVATE YOUR EDGE SYSTEM, so it's possible there isn't that much perverseness in that one, meaning it's a matter of what audience he thinks he has to cater to.

 

[Lady Bird]

There's also more SE projects currently at development. Nomura mentioned a "secret team working on a secret project". (Maybe Ito's team?)

And yes, I also associate Toriyama with over-sexualized and/ or perverted fanservice. It's been (almost) consistent with his work, and it's impressive how much of FFVII's deleted Honey Bee content originaly created by Toriyama is full of that. I thought that was common knowledge by now, but people seem to be shocked about it? He wa a bit more conservative for some titles, like FFXIII, though.

EDIT: I'm not saying the man has "uncontrollable sexual urges", just that his fanservice seems to revolve around slutty jpop and perverted humor. FFX-2 is clearly the best example, with the entire Charlies Angels style and with the Brother character.

 

[Kyoufu]

X-2 is like the fourth best FF, though.

I thought it had a great battle system but really poor everything else. Typical of a Toriyama game.

 

[jaxword]

It's a bit presumptuous to assume all of those are a result of one man's uncontrollable sexual urges or fetishes. Although I do feel as though Toriyama lets fanservice hamper many parts of his games (case in point: Vanille, 3rd Bday), I don't think it's necessarily a part of his personal character.

If it were one time, then you'd have a point. But it's consistently in multiple works by the same man. I've given my reasoning for my conclusion, which is a not an assumption: there's a clear pattern. What's your explanation for the consistency? I'm not condemning all fanservice, but come on, man.

Did you know that Aya's grunts of pain and dialogue change with her outfit in the Japanese version? Some are funny, like her Engrish Santa Hyo Hyo Hyo, but you can probably guess what she says with certain outfits on.

In the maid outfit she's saying "Welcome, master...". WAY beyond fanservice there.

 

[duckroll]

If it were one time, then you'd have a point. But it's consistently in multiple works by the same man. I've given my reasoning for my conclusion, which is a not an assumption: there's a clear pattern. What's your explanation for the consistency? It's a bit more than "fanservice" when it's completely irrelevant to the gameplay, like Aya dressed as a maid.

Why are you associating Toriyama with The 3rd Birthday? He was in charge of the scenario, but many of the actual decisions in the game are made by the director. Why would you assume that Toriyama is the one who was responsible for there being costumes in the game, or destructible clothing? Considering the optional content in Type-0 (which Toriyama had nothing at all to do with), Tabata is just as much of a pervert.

As far as there being a "clear pattern" if you want to compare everything Toriyama has worked on, I think you would find that the majority of the games don't actually have the sort of thing you mention. Toriyama is responsible for the scenarios of a TON of games.

Edit: You might want to remove that scan...

 

[jaxword]

Why are you associating Toriyama with The 3rd Birthday? He was in charge of the scenario, but many of the actual decisions in the game are made by the director. Why would you assume that Toriyama is the one who was responsible for there being costumes in the game, or destructible clothing? Considering the optional content in Type-0 (which Toriyama had nothing at all to do with), Tabata is just as much of a pervert.

As far as there being a "clear pattern" if you want to compare everything Toriyama has worked on, I think you would find that the majority of the games don't actually have the sort of thing you mention. Toriyama is responsible for the scenarios of a TON of games.

Edit: You might want to remove that scan...

Are any scans of her maid outfit allowed? It'd be difficult to make a point without the image.

As for the 3rd birthday, well, he's scenario writer, so I doubt he had ZERO input in how Aya's character changed or talked...so when she's being creepily subservient in her disintegrating maid costume, that dialogue comes from SOMEone.

I can't speak for Tabata, so whatever you conclude there is up to you.

As for my statement about a pattern...I stand by that, because while he's worked on a lot of games, the ones he's had a direct impact on really really stand out with the (hilarious) weird fetish stuff.

 

[duckroll]

As for my statement about a pattern...I stand by that, because while he's worked on a lot of games, the ones he's had a direct impact on really really stand out with the (hilarious) weird fetish stuff.

That sounds like you're saying you pick and choose what games matter in this discussion based on which games have perverted stuff in them simply because that's what you want to associate him with.

How is his "direct impact" on The 3rd Birthday any different from his direct impact on Racing Lagoon, Front Mission Evolved, Mindjack, Dissidia, Dissidia012, both Crystal Chronicles WiiWare games, and the Fullmetal Alchemist games?

How is his "direct impact" on FFX-2 and FFXIII any different from his direct impact on FFXII Revenant Wings and Blood of Bahamut?

Maybe the pattern is only there for what you are looking for specifically? I could just as easily say that Nomura or Kitase are responsible for all these elements, since they also worked on the same games with "pattern".

 

[H_Prestige]

The framerate seems fine even in the January 2011 trailer, which was far from being a finished build of the game. And we have all kinds of stuff going on in it from big explosions to massive beasts wreacking the environment to you flying fast through the city.

Well, this is the same team that made Kingdom Hearts II on PS2, which is perhaps the single most impressive PS2 game (at least at its very best), yet it runs smoothly without any hiccups.

The gameplay in that trailer wasn't running on a ps3.

 

[Famassu]

The gameplay in that trailer wasn't running on a ps3.

Uh... yes it was. The only real-time footage from Versus we've seen that wasn't running on a PS3 was the first clip from the party with Noctis & Stella talking with each other (which looked better than the 2011 trailer footage).

 

[H_Prestige]

Uh... yes it was.

Nomura said next time they show the game it will be running on an actual ps3. Why would he say that if he already showed it running on a ps3 over a year ago?

 

[jaxword]

That sounds like you're saying you pick and choose what games matter in this discussion based on which games have perverted stuff in them simply because that's what you want to associate him with.

How is his "direct impact" on The 3rd Birthday any different from his direct impact on Racing Lagoon, Front Mission Evolved, Mindjack, Dissidia, Dissidia012, both Crystal Chronicles WiiWare games, and the Fullmetal Alchemist games?

How is his "direct impact" on FFX-2 and FFXIII any different from his direct impact on FFXII Revenant Wings and Blood of Bahamut?

Ok, I'll accept that point of view. Let's remove the games he's scenario writer and just go with director.

FF7 (part of a group)
FFX (part of a group)
FFx-2
FF12: Revenant Wings
Blood of Bahamut
FF13
FF13-2

At least 3 of those have pretty sexually creepy parts at times. FF7 has already been mentioned. FFX is pretty clean. FFx-2 was his first solo, and that's pretty blatant in every way. FF12rw had absolutely nothing of note at all and no one would've noticed anything sexual since no one played it anyways. FF13 gets a pass, though that's debatable since Vanille orgasms every battle. I can't speak for BoB, never really got into it, but I'll assume for this discussion it's clean. FF13-2 already mentioned.

So that's about half of the works he's had a direct hand in. So perhaps it IS just a coincidence that the works he's on just have some weird dressup insertions, but honestly: I really think after a certain point it becomes more a coincidence and it becomes a pattern.

 

[Famassu]

Nomura said next time they show the game it will be running on an actual ps3. Why would he say that if he already showed it running on a ps3 over a year ago?

I'm guessing he meant that next time we see Versus XIII we'll possibly get a gameplay demonstration where they are showcasing the game by playing the game live in front of an audience instead of just showing a carefully edited trailer. Nomura confirmed the move from PC to PS3 years ago.

 

[Nibel]

Is this trailer available as HD download?