Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest
- Thread starter Dram
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Mortrialus
Banned
Just to comment on a few things said about the case, specifically arguments against racism on the part of the police department:
The most likely reason why an arrest has been taking so long is because the higher ups were trying to hide the incompetence and or racism of the initial police investigation at the scene.
The most likely reason why an arrest has been taking so long is because the higher ups were trying to hide the incompetence and or racism of the initial police investigation at the scene.
Not really relevant even if the race of the victim has something to do with why the victim is presently deceased?
Update, a new witness:
http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin...-teen-death-recounts-063243901--abc-news.html
ABC News was there exclusively as the 16-year-old girl told Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump about the last moments of the teenager's life.
"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run."
Eventually he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.
"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."
http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin...-teen-death-recounts-063243901--abc-news.html
ABC News was there exclusively as the 16-year-old girl told Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump about the last moments of the teenager's life.
"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run."
Eventually he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.
"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."
You're saying the guy should only be locked up if the shooting was racially motivated?
Not at all. Just that if the crime was racially motivated that could influence the charges levied against the man.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
nope meant what I said
Cell phone records should prove this one out. Pretty damning if true.
So what do you think should happen if the shooting was not racially motivated?
Hint: the shooter should be taken to the station, checked for intoxication, and a proper investigation should begin.
Right. That should happen anyway. There is no reason for that NOT to happen. What is your point?
Edit: No reason other than the cops being fuckheads.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Thorough investigation these cops did
MightyHealthy
Banned
Probably much quicker, considering the DOJ/FBI intervention...
If this pans out, I hope it makes a case for murder.
edit: Actually, they have the logs. The conversation occurred 5 minutes before the police arrived. From the same article:
Even more, about his role as a neighborhood watch "captain."
Holy shit.
empty vessel
Member
I agree with you that Florida's self-defense law was intended to be and is very favorable to vigilantes. Its existence is the best explanation for the non-arrest, in the sense that this is the spirit of the Florida law that protects trigger-happy vigilantes. (Reasonable people objected to its enactment to prevent this very thing.) But the new vigilante law still presents no real obstacle to an arrest and criminal charges based on the evidence. Florida law precludes police from arresting somebody claiming justifiable use of force "unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful." Police have said this is why they cannot arrest Zimmerman. It isn't true. The police have probable cause to believe that the force used was unlawful. This is a low standard that the police are applying with unusual rigor. Essentially, it means there is enough evidence for a reasonable person to believe that Zimmerman's use of force was not unlawful. If you've ever heard the phrase that a district attorney could indict a ham sandwich, then you get a feel for it. The burden for indicting somebody is the same as arresting him: probable cause.
I would say that most people in this thread are quite reasonable. And there is no reason to believe that the police have evidence that undermines any of the known evidence so much as to negate that.
If it hasn't been posted, and for those interested, here is the provision that bars aggressors from justifiably using force:
Black Republican
Member
i hope Lee is gone after this
Sho_Nuff82
Member
The idea that "probable cause" for arrest = "beyond a reasonable doubt" is absurd, but it seems to have been applied here.
And how "reasonable doubt" now means "any fucking doubt whatsoever no matter how unreasonable". This is the way justice is going.
so he not even a legal neighborhood watch person and the new cell phone info enforces the fact that he's a stalker.
What's blowing my damned mind is that the police knew the victim had a cell phone, most likely knew that he made a call just before dying, and seemingly never contacted the person he called (or did and decided it wasn't relevant)
wow
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Depends on the evidence.
But the evidence points clearly to a raically motivated shooting...
Wtf, so if both of them had been of the same race you'd have had no issue with this? The evidence points clearly to a shooting that is not in self defense. If it is is racially motivated it clearly affects the severity of the crime, but the crime is murder, not racism.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
Way to twist my words around... Something like this doesn't really happen without being racially motivated, or money motivated...
empty vessel
Member
Police are lazy. This is the case everywhere. Worth remembering next time you're on a jury, too.
MightyHealthy
Banned
I don't agree with how you went about it, but I do partially see your point.
I believe that racism was a large factor into why George Zimmerman deemed Trayvon Martin a suspicious person, and why he convicted him of being "up to something," as well as his aggressiveness to detain him.
I also believe that his past history is also a notable part of the equation, as it factors into why he carried a gun, in addition to his astounding number of calls to authorities.
For whatever reasons, he had become increasingly delusional about his role in protecting the neighborhood, to the point where he seemed paranoid and hostile to those he was "protecting" for quite some time.
I dare say that there were warning signs that this would happen, and may I also point out that there is absolutely an element of racism in how the Sanford Police Department handled this case.
As far as the police are concerned I'm inclined to think they are lazy and incompetent rather than racist. But who knows.
As for Zimmerman, from what we know he sounds like is possibly racist, but that's the least of his troubles. The bigger issue, judging by the tapes, the 46 calls to the cops in a years time and obviously the shooting of an unarmed kid... is that he has some vastly over inflated sense of authority, vigilantism, and fucking brain damage.
As for Zimmerman, from what we know he sounds like is possibly racist, but that's the least of his troubles. The bigger issue, judging by the tapes, the 46 calls to the cops in a years time and obviously the shooting of an unarmed kid... is that he has some vastly over inflated sense of authority, vigilantism, and fucking brain damage.
empty vessel
Member
All of the above.
Although when I use racist, I typically do not mean consciously racist or acting with conscious desire to achieve a racist result. I mean that are subconsciously afflicted by racist biases, e.g., wholesale crediting Zimmerman's story and "fear" of Martin while failing to appreciate Martin's fear of Zimmerman. Of course, police officers are almost certainly more likely than the average person to be conscious racists.
There was a picture of the victim earlier and the kid looked like he couldn't even hurt a fly. Poor kid was underweight for his age and could only pose a threat to an adult male if he was carrying but I guess the police feel carrying a can of ice tea and skittles is the same as a gun. Those Arizona ice tea cans are mighty big and place people in constant fear.
I mean, lets just say that the kid somehow preemptively struck him(which we already know isn't true) and got on top of him. The guys got 100 pounds on him and is pretty damn huge. There's no way a guy like that wouldn't be able to push some 100 pound kid off him, let alone get himself in a situation where he feels that he's being overpowered to the point he has to use lethal force. It's just not happening.
The dudes defending this guy....It really says a lot about yourself.
Both the picture and the description of the kid make this one hit a little closer to home for me. He looks like an older version of my neighbors son, who is an almost absurdly polite and friendly kid.
Just sad.
AzureNightmare
Banned
You really shouldn't go toe to toe with Blackace man. Bad idea.
Zoe
Member
Neighborhood Watch does not imply any sort of legality. It's the neighborhood taking care of its own community.
The weight difference between me and my wife is about the same as Zimmerman and Martin. I really doubt that I would be scott free if I say to the police that I had to shoot my wife because I feared for my life and was in mortal danger with her physically assaulting me.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Ladies and gentlemen, this is what you call an "orgy" of evidence.
Edit: We don't even need this case to know the department is racist. The previous chief was fired after the shitstorm that followed another racially charged crime (a black homeless man being brutally assaulted by the son of a LT) with no arrest being made. Search the thread for "Collison".
As to the ridiculous standard of probable cause being thrown out by Enron and his ilk, you have the man on tape, while in contact with local dispatch, claiming that Treyvon spotted him, that Treyvon ran from him, and that he was getting out of his car to pursue him. In his own words. His story, witnesses story, the extra 911 calls, the size difference, Treyvon's cargo, toxicology, ballistics, the evidence at the scene - all irrelevant. Facts: He a) followed, b) frightened, and c) chased a minor in the dark and in the rain, and that minor ended up dead under curious circumstances. That is justification for an arrest in any state of the Union, including Florida.
Edit 2: Piecing together the cell phone call with Zimmerman's testimony, it's very likely that George saw him fingering his cell phone as the mysterious object in belt, on the phone (via bluetooth headset) getting advice about what to do about this crazy stalker. :/ He did the smartest thing anyone could have done, and it still didn't save him.
Things are about to explode.
Boom. Front page of CNN today:
http://www.cnn.com/
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/20/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
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The man who shot Trayvon, George Zimmerman, has not been charged. He told police he shot the teen in self-defense, and police say they have no evidence to refute his story.
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CNN has made numerous attempts to contact Zimmerman, who is Hispanic, but have been unsuccessful. In a statement to the Orlando Sentinel, his father says Zimmerman grew up in a multiracial family and has moved out of his home after receiving death threats.
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"Something's wrong with him. Yep. He's coming to check me out," Zimmerman told a police dispatcher in a 911 call released Monday. "He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. Send officers over here."
Less than a day. I should have placed money on it.
Boom. Front page of CNN today:
http://www.cnn.com/
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/20/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
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The man who shot Trayvon, George Zimmerman, has not been charged. He told police he shot the teen in self-defense, and police say they have no evidence to refute his story.
-
CNN has made numerous attempts to contact Zimmerman, who is Hispanic, but have been unsuccessful. In a statement to the Orlando Sentinel, his father says Zimmerman grew up in a multiracial family and has moved out of his home after receiving death threats.
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"Something's wrong with him. Yep. He's coming to check me out," Zimmerman told a police dispatcher in a 911 call released Monday. "He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. Send officers over here."
Less than a day. I should have placed money on it.
CrazyDogg77
Member
You know what really makes it hit home for me? He looks just like me.
So? Who cares? I'd be doing the world a favor.
Jim E. Rossler
Banned
Your brand of street justice is why we were lynched a few decades ago
"The police wont arrest that coon even though my daughter said she saw him steal from our store! My daughter dont lie, AND we're missing a bag of chips! Let's get 'em!"
He's going down now, higher powers are involved, and the evidence is all there.
It wouldn't even be ruled a crime of passion for a direct family member this late after it happened
A vigilante shooting of Zimmerman is much more likely to spark some hostilities than just this case alone
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
uh... What?
Jim E. Rossler
Banned
the 'I have enough evidence, screw the system, I'll kill him myself' kind
I didn't imply it was a good thing, or that it was even justice at all
There's really no such thing as street justice, just vigilantism
I dont even know what you meant tbh, it's hard to tell from one word
CrazyDogg77
Member
I think he means street justice by whites. Even then I had the same reaction.
I'm not even arguing FOR Zimmerman, for fuck's sake. I'm arguing that it seems like a lot of the evidence isn't exactly the best and that might explain the lack of an arrest and charge. Do you read only what you want to read? I've stated time and again what I think of Zimmerman and his guilt. Jesus Christ.
We really need to put the pics and weight stats side by side and ask those arguing for zimmerman who they thinks would be able to beat the shit out of the other.
FINALLY.
I was afraid that this thread was bumped because of some senseless feud (it was lol) but...
It's over for Zimmerman. The chess pieces are in play, and we just need to make our decisive move.
It warms my heart so see the community so involved in a case like this. About 500k signatures on that petition for Travyon? That right there is pretty fucking incredible. Sure there's a ton of racism in this world, but the overwhelmingly amount of people who are against it makes me happy.
I was afraid that this thread was bumped because of some senseless feud (it was lol) but...
It's over for Zimmerman. The chess pieces are in play, and we just need to make our decisive move.
It warms my heart so see the community so involved in a case like this. About 500k signatures on that petition for Travyon? That right there is pretty fucking incredible. Sure there's a ton of racism in this world, but the overwhelmingly amount of people who are against it makes me happy.
Wow, just wow. Besides how fucked up the stuff he is saying (that sounds like bullshit anyway), even hardcore racists think zimmerman was in the wrong. No coming back from that.
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