VariantX04
Loser slave of the system :(
Wario what have you done?
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Apple sells 3 million new iPads in 3 days
- Thread starter Wario64
- Start date
Hari Seldon
Member
With the iPad getting more and more powerful, it is going to suffer the same exact problem as consoles. To make a game that stands out, you can't get by with 1-2 man 2D art teams. And when you start making games with large teams, well you can't sell it for $1.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
As you can see from the posts after yours, many people did exactly that. During the whole Blu-Ray vs HDDVD fiasco, all you had to do was take a stroll through the AVforums, BluRay.com forums, etc. and you'd find many movie buffs who specifically purchased a PS3 for its blu ray capabilities.
badcrumble
Member
Then they'll start selling the games for more. They'll still avoid used-game sales and therefore have more leeway to work with than developers who make console games for retail.
They still aren't going to hit $60 though. At the most I'd say $20.
Ninja Scooter
Member
I don't think the age of the game was his point, just the software synergy that the regular console makers seem to be missing the boat on that can add a lot of perceived value to a product which helps iOS.
Marty Chinn
Member
Ding ding ding! Someone gets it.
But will the market allow that to happen? The market dictates a game has to be 99 cents on iOS and at most $5 with a few exceptions at closer to $10. Even then, most people wait for price drops because we all expect it to happen.
Draw Something and Where's My Water say hi.
badcrumble
Member
'the market' isn't a magical thing that exists independently of the products being made available except in some sort of loopy Ron Paul fever dream
SuperPac
Member
No, the market won't allow that to happen. What they will allow is 99 cent game with loads of in-app purchases. Until the market completely bottoms out and someone takes a chance on a higher-priced game and sticks to the price.
I actually know TWO people who own PS3s and have never purchased a single game for it. Back in the day, it was the ONLY option for a decent Blu Ray player, regardless of price point.
The market will bear it. There has already been a price-hike on iOS, across the board, and nobody even noticed, much less bitched about it. If 69p became 99p, there'd be a similar lack of complaint IMO. Keep repeating those small increments and before you know it, we have £7.99 as the baseline for 'good' games.
dreamcastmaster
Banned
Generally iPad app sell for 3 times what iPhone games do. I've no problem paying more for an iPad app than one x2 iPhone app for 99C
Quadraphonic
Member
As Penny Arcade said, let one person spend $60 on 1 game and another spend $1 on 60 games and see who has more fun.
Hari Seldon
Member
Yeah I don't think they could support full price games on there either, which means budgets are going to be limited. I think that this is unrecoverable. The store has already been overrun, and there is really nothing you can do about it. The way to do DD successfully is launch right from the gate with serious AAA full price games, like Steam and Vita have done. That way there is room for the big games and room for the indies. The way not to do it is to have major studios competing at the same price point as indies. That is a disaster where only a few people who catch fire win, and everyone else loses.
Marty Chinn
Member
Ya, and the market has pushed us towards 99 cent apps and games. People tried higher and it just got pushed downward and that's why we are where we are today.
That may have happened in the UK, but that has not happened in the US. I'm still not sure the market will bear it at this point in time because the market is what put us to 99 cent expectation to begin with.
I agree one way to get there is gradually do it in small and low increments, but is that even feasible at the rate the hardware is changing and what will be involved probably sooner than later of rising dev costs to take some advantage (not full because it's clear developers will want to cater to a wider audience)?
I think realistically we're more likely to see what SuperPac is saying in which we're going to hit a point where reality hits and there's going to be a wake up call to fix the problem with a lot of developers failing in the process.
I'm in no position to claim if it'll do good or bad. All I know is it's quite early to make assertions as if they're set in stone. Making an outright claim that the Vita is a failure at the present time is ridiculous. The system hasn't even been out for a month in North America and Europe...
Success is finding a game to sell the system to gamers, not just us hardcore folk on GAF. Nintendo has that in Pokemon and Mario Kart, to name a few, and what Sony had for that was Monster Hunter, but only in Japan. That flagship series was what many associate the PSP with, and now it seems the mainline entries belong to Nintendo. Sony (as developers) have yet to release a piece of software on the PSP or the Vita that screams system seller. And I think for the Vita to be successful it needs a first party juggernaut that makes it fly off the charts. Uncharted, being the big game for the Vita's launch, is certainly not the game to do it, especially in Japan. I can't say what the future holds for the platform, as we're getting close to E3, but I'm sure their cards will be shown then, and perhaps looking at their lineup then can you start making more acceptable assumptions on how its going to fare.
In the end, for dedicated game platforms, software is the driving force for hardware. This is why Nintendo's systems always boom when they release notable games, and was specifically the reason the 3DS was a very slow burn, as they had no first party title that boasted the new platform in a meaningful way. I think Sony has been able to get away with other companies making games for their platforms on the PS1 and the PS2 and ride on those waves, but I think the PS3, the PSP, and the Vita all show some major first party efforts will be needed. I think Sony has honestly delivered on the PS3 in that regard, failed with the PSP, and at present has yet to show such a change in course for Vita.
Third parties want to make games for many different platforms in hopes of making money, and it's up for Sony to do what Nintendo does and make games that not simply appeal to gamers who have the platform or have 'loyalty' to their devices, but to sell it to people who just like games, and even those who don't yet. So where I stand on such a matter I suppose would be that the Vita will probably do acceptably well if there are enough games that audiences like us enjoy, but it will easily be obliterated by the 3DS unless Sony has an entire shift in paradigm on how to sell their devices by boasting first party content that screams to an audience not enthused by the platform already. So far the Vita only appeals to the types of gamers who post here, and hardcore Sony fans. That's a small pool.
It is not a disaster if budgets are allocated accordingly. You shouldn't spend $25 million and 2 years on a game, like Lair, and sell it for $60. Making 1-3 games a year on $100,000/game and under budgets is more sustainable, and your studio isn't going to go bankrupt if you don't catch fire on your latest game. You only need 150,000 purchases at 99 cents to make up a $100,000 budget. I don't know how many $60 copies of Lair you need to sell to make up that budget.
Marty Chinn
Member
Ya, and what kind of games are developed on those types of budgets? Is that really what we want the game industry to become?
Hum... And why not?
My kids love to play games on the iPad. There are dozens of threads on gaf about iOs games development. Why is iPad sales less related to gaming then other consoles sales numbers?
One of the reasons companies don't talk about budgets too often is because there's no way of setting it in stone. Something may change entirely during development that might add more costs to the project in general, so there's no guarantee of going under budget or hitting a sweet spot.
In fact, Don James at Nintendo said something very much like this:
Don James said:
The game industry can support both. I don't know why you have such a big problem with a larger market for game developers to reach out to. Supporting more studios that can make a living on their own instead of working for a big publisher for many years on a high-budget game that might cause layoffs if they don't crunch until its great enough for amazing sales.
When someone in the top 20% of income in China still makes under $10 an hour, they are going to balk at buying a $60 console game (even if they were officially sold in China, which they aren't). They have less of a problem buying cheaper App Store games. Modern Combat 3 is #1 on the charts in the App Store in China, which is a higher budget iOS game. China is the 2nd largest market after the US for iOS devices, as well as App Store sales/downloads. The App Store should be welcomed by game devs for finally opening up the Chinese market to game sales, where China was known for piracy of other games in the past (piracy still exists as an issue with iOS there, but in-app activated games are a way to get around that issue).
In terms of what the gaming industry can be, I've had far more fun playing Fairway Solitaire, which FreeMyApps paid me to download, than I did when I bought Lair for $50. One model does not always make better games. There can be great games on both and there can be duds on both.
But there will always be people that want to play simple 2D games for free or for $1 that are not willing to pay $30 for a 3D AAAA high production game. And I think that's the majority.
The guys that play this games will continue to play them in consoles or PC. The controller forces them to. This is not just a matter of graphical power.
If the people spending $1 on 60 games were having more fun, the market would be dominated by those 100-in-1 game collections that litter the bargain aisle.
In reality, people prefer to pay more for fewer titles with increased depth because the cost of learning a new game doesn't have to be repeated as often.
It is one of the main features. God only knows how many surveys and charts it will take to drive the point home though.
lol... guess I hate "true" HD gaming.
Yeah, but how many people you know that bought a PS3/360 for anything other than gaming? Gaming is THE MAIN reason people buy consoles. With iPad, gaming is an after thought, there are other things that iPad is good at that PS3 isn't. The browser on the PS3 is not that great a lot of sites don't even work on it. There are no useful apps like there are on iPad, etc etc. Bluray and gaming is what PS3 is good at.
In reality, different people have different preferences. I've had far more fun playing Fairway Solitaire, which FreeMyApps paid me to download, than I did when I bought Lair for $50. One model does not always make better games. There can be great games on both and there can be duds on both.
RukusProvider
Banned
The biggest hurdle I see for the Vita is it's target demographic. The system is clearly not designed for young children. It's core market is the teenager to young adult slot. However, I'd say, for those users, market share AND mind share is being controlled by iDevices. Wrestling away that mind share will be the biggest hurdle for Sony.
You didn't really specify metric so I'll present my mine.
Best case for Vita = matching YoY and LTD sales of the PSP
Likely case = 70% of YoY and LTD sales of the PSP
Worst case/faiulre = 50% of YoY and LTD sales of the PSP
RukusProvider
Banned
Gaming is certainly a main features. However, the platform performs for so well in other areas that unlike gaming systems, the gaming aspect doesn't dwarf the rest of the feature set. The fact that they're very able in other categories and not just a "checklist" feature says more to how well executed the product is.
In my case, I see no reason why I can't leave my work laptop at home from now on when going to client meetings.
I get all my email and corporate IM on the ipad. Can join Webex meetings. Dropbox to access all my files and Splashtop in case I need access into my laptop sitting at home for any reason. At this point I'm struggling to see WHY I'd need to take my laptop to a client site.
Marty Chinn
Member
I don't have an issue with the industry growing its audience at all. I have issues with how that growth is achieved and the expectation that comes along with it because of influences that have pushed the market in a certain way. I don't think the industry can support both under the current trend. We have extremes at both ends where you're either having bottom of the barrel 99 cent games or super mega budget large games that can kill a developer if they don't sell millions. There's no middle ground right now and that is bad for the industry. There is a finite amount of money to be spent, a finite amount of time, and a finite number of developers with a limited amount of resources who can take advantage of this. Growing your audience is great if you're growing the revenue proportionally. The casual audience is a trickier beast to figure out.
China is a great untapped market that has been prone to piracy for decades, and honestly I'd like to see some more data on the trends in China. But pointing out China is an even bigger potential issue because like you say, it's a huge untapped market that wants those 99 cent games. The same games that aren't really sustainable. China's audience could help curb that a bit though, but then you get the industry focusing on what sells in China which isn't always the same tastes as other places around the world. So while it's good for some developers, it will change what type of games core gamers will play because the industry will shift to where the money is. The industry has always about been shifting their focus to where the current money is regardless of what it means for the long term. You need not look any further at Activision's short term business plan this generation.
That's fine. I'm not saying there aren't fun games on iOS. I'm not saying big blockbuster games automatically mean more fun or more depth or any of that. I buy my fair share of iOS games. It probably takes up half the capacity on my phone. I think many suit the medium well. I have issue as a gamer though if that becomes the focal platform though because I do believe there are plenty of games that don't fit the medium.
But odds are you already knew how the play solitaire, and didn't go through 60 different titles at $1/each until you found one you enjoyed.
The same economics apply to console titles as well. People who've put a lot of time into mastering Madden '11 or First Person Shooter 3 would rather pay $60 and transfer those skills to Madden '12 or First Person Shooter 4 than spend $60 on learning 60 random games.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Off to buy another iPad!
I can't even buy my first since Best Buy is sold out here. Do Apple Stores have a full stock?
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/apple_continues_make_huge_margin_new_ipad
Jesus Christ, dat profit. I dare anyone to say they aren't overpricing this goddamn thing.
People don't seem to have a grasp on what "overpricing" is.
Here is a hint: If you sell 3 million of something in 3 days....it's not overpriced.
Fairway Solitaire is not solitaire. It's a golf game and puzzle game with mini-games and funny play by play commentary.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
I know a few people who purchased the PS3 specifically for it's blu ray capabilities and from posts in this thread I'm not alone. Sure, it's main purpose is gaming but that doesn't mean it's not also a media device as well as gaming one. The iPad is a gaming device, a movie device, music device, internet device, etc.
AstroNut325
Member
THIS! Profit is what brings advances. Without profit = no industry = no advances.
Edit:
I bought a PS3 primarily for the blu-ray capabilities. Gaming second. I get more time with movies via blu-ray and Netflix than gaming.
So true...
Marty Chinn
Member
Just because a product is successful doesn't mean it's not overpriced (not saying the iPad is in this case). Monster makes a ton of money on their products, but I dare you to find someone here that will claim they aren't overpriced.
Monster doesn't sell 3 million cables the weekend a new one is released.
It's an Apple product. Are you still baffled?
I think he gave a bad example, though. I'd use something more along the lines of Jetpack Joyride to exemplify this point. No argument from me about console manufacturers not seeing what is happening in gaming. They are getting hammered on one side by IOS, and on the other side by Steam and don't tend to be adapting to market trends at all. Consoles are becoming big budget only gaming boxes.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Marty Chinn
Member
Doesn't change the point. Perceived value is different than actual value. Just because someone has the perception that the value is higher doesn't mean that the product isn't over priced from the actual value. Perception, trends, and fads have a huge weight on how things sell.
I had no idea. But the point remains, assuming a hypothetical Fairway Solitaire 2 (now with more mini-games and commentary!) available for $2, would you rather purchase that or two other random $1 titles? I'd wager you'd take the former.
Of course, one can stumble into a $60 dud just as easily as a $1 dud. But given a $60 known quantity versus 60, $1 unknowns, people will gladly take the $60 title.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Honestly, in many ways Microsoft and Sony have reacted to iOS/Steam/etc. just as slowly as Nintendo reacted to their online infrastructure and digital distribution. I will be incredibly disappointed if next gen the three big companies don't implement the type of synergistic features into their devices that exists on iOS. I mean we have Sony/Kojima blabbering about transfarring when it's been available on Steam and iOS for a couple of years.
I never paid for Fairway Solitaire. FreeMyApps paid me like 60 cents to download it. I guess the developer makes more than 60 cents per player.
I will take a $1 unknown versus a $60 unknown any day of the week.
Even after spending over $200 on the App Store, I've never reached a total of $50 of duds. It happened with my purchase of Lair for the PS3 though.